The Star Citizen Thread v 4

[swfanatic717]

Games take a long time to make. I wish they were further along too. I also wish they hadn't gone down some blind alleys. That said progress *has* been made. Whether the amount is appropriate is debatable and will be debated.

I think a lot of people are interested in their accounting precisely because financial status is one of the key factors that can objectively justify whether enough progress has been made in a project, in this case, whether CIG will run out of money before they can finish the PU to promised standards.

Nobody is being forced to spend money, but there are a lot of people who've already spent a significant amount of money on the SC project, and seeing the apparent lack of progress may be unsettling. Not to mention the people who feel that given the "development" stage of SC project, the behind schedule status of the game, and the cash reserves they have on hand, that CIG shouldn't be allowed to continue raking in the revenue amounts that they are unchecked.

 

[Aleksej]

Yeah but in some way they should have put some kind of station without ships, just for FPS combats for the people that want to try these, or at least let people do some kind of FPS mission in the PU. But the game right now doesn't have many FPS mechanics so... there was better ways around that problem.

IMO ofc.
P.D.-Even though in the bugsmasher(or somewhere) they were testing the fps in one station and I dont believe it to be in the PU right now. Maybe something similar in the near future?

I saw a YouTube video of FPS PvP in one of the stations in PU.

But it's more than that though isn't it?

They sold it to people on the promise of a specific FPS module with the leaderboards and all that.

Then they messed up the whole thing with Illfonic - and yes it was their fault - they were the dominant supervisory partner, they called the shots - it's entirely their responsibility.

But now that side of it has been kicked into the long grass along with co-op and the other stuff they sold and allowed people to believe wasn't a bottom of the list priority.

At what point do we stop making allowances for their incompetence?

Unfortunately, this is CIG's issue. They forget about a saying to measure thrice and cut once. They start cutting as soon as they have the idea, then they check what was the result, and in most cases they repeat this several times. No credit to them for doing it this way.

 

[ianw]

Unfortunately, as long as people keep throwing cash at them - there is no incompetence to allow for. Star Citizen may not ever be released, and as long as they are getting income there is really no need for them to do anything other than what they are already doing.

Well that's the thing isn't it. All the time they can dangle some new carrots and promises - no guarantees or deadlines obviously! People can keep believing and putting aside some of the monthly pay cheque.

But the problem is that hype is like engineering debt.


It's fine until you have to come up with the goods.


Things were different before AC and whatever it is that's out now is called. It was all promises, hopes and dreams.


But now it's time to actually put stuff out there, there really isn't anything to hide behind anymore. People can see for themselves - well those that choose to at least.

 

[Rolan]

I saw a YouTube video of FPS PvP in one of the stations in PU.

Nah this was the devs testing something.

Found it! (>3:02<)
I don't think that's a station in the PU right now.

[video=youtube_share;7UT3e96qQik]https://youtu.be/7UT3e96qQik?t=3m2s[/video]

 

[Aleksej]

Nah this was the devs testing something.

Found it! (>3:02<)
I don't think that's a station in the PU right now.

https://youtu.be/7UT3e96qQik?t=3m2s

Security Post Kareah is FPS PvP location, and it is already in the game. There are YouTube videos of FPS combat there.

This is what FPS has now:
First Person Shooter

Recharging energy weapons.
In-game pick-ups including ballistic weapons, ammo and MediPens.
Player healing.
Due to the open-world architecture of the Crusader system, FPS combat can occur on space stations, on the decks of ships, or even while engaged in EVA.
A space station location specifically designed for and dedicated to FPS combat, including many stores and caches of personal weapons.

 

[Rolan]

Security Post Kareah is FPS PvP location, and it is already in the game. There are YouTube videos of FPS combat there.

This is what FPS has now:
First Person Shooter

Recharging energy weapons.
In-game pick-ups including ballistic weapons, ammo and MediPens.
Player healing.
Due to the open-world architecture of the Crusader system, FPS combat can occur on space stations, on the decks of ships, or even while engaged in EVA.
A space station location specifically designed for and dedicated to FPS combat, including many stores and caches of personal weapons.

I don't remember that corridor... :S

Cover system, Drag injured... theres much to do yet.

 

[Aleksej]

I don't remember that corridor... :S

Cover system, Drag injured... theres much to do yet.

Well, there's so much to do regarding everything related to SQ42/SC. And I would say that top priority should be granted to a space sim. Everything else can be added later.

 

[lysan]

I saw a YouTube video of FPS PvP in one of the stations in PU.



Unfortunately, this is CIG's issue. They forget about a saying to measure thrice and cut once. They start cutting as soon as they have the idea, then they check what was the result, and in most cases they repeat this several times. No credit to them for doing it this way.

Where I come from we call it something else. As this is a children friendly forum I will leave it at that

 

[Leper Messiah]

I think a lot of people are interested in their accounting precisely because financial status is one of the key factors that can objectively justify whether enough progress has been made in a project, in this case, whether CIG will run out of money before they can finish the PU to promised standards.

Nobody is being forced to spend money, but there are a lot of people who've already spent a significant amount of money on the SC project, and seeing the apparent lack of progress may be unsettling. Not to mention the people who feel that given the "development" stage of SC project, the behind schedule status of the game, and the cash reserves they have on hand, that CIG shouldn't be allowed to continue raking in the revenue amounts that they are unchecked.

Isn't it daft though that someone with a lot invested in the game would and moan and cause a ruckus thus further undermining support of the game? lack of support WILL kill the game and render that investment wasted?

No, I'm sorry IMO most people complaining about the money are clearly SC detractors (or are VERY VERY stupid people).







Once again I'll say to the detractors read up on the development of Halflife 2 and how long it took and how much was cut from the final game, difference is HL2 development was behind closed doors and SC is more open so we read all about it as it happens.


edit: for what it's worth I don't agree with the CiG financial model or think their organisational skills are good.

 

[dayrth]

<snip>

I disagree. If someone was promised a game that would do x,y and z and handed over money based on that, they have a perfect right to question things when it appears the promised features are changing. They also have a right to question what their money is being used for if they are not happy with the results they are seeing. Personally I think having grave concerns but keeping quiet would be, in your words 'VERY VERY stupid'.

 

[Voivod]

Once again I'll say to the detractors read up on the development of Halflife 2 and how long it took and how much was cut from the final game, difference is HL2 development was behind closed doors and SC is more open so we read all about it as it happens.

The difference being Valve didn't ask for money 6 years in advance only to deliver an altered product than the one initially sold.

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

Isn't it daft though that someone with a lot invested in the game would and moan and cause a ruckus thus further undermining support of the game? lack of support WILL kill the game and render that investment wasted?

I presume you are aware that CR himself has mentioned in several occasions that if pledges were to stop now CIG has already got enough funds to finish it all as promised. So when you equate asking for financial transparency with moaning or causing a ruckus / undermining the game, you ll have to pardon some of us for thinking it sounds a bit hyperbolic.

One of the main reasons some backers are asking for that financial transparency is precisely because they have doubts those CR statements still hold valid.

If it turned out indeed that the project had mismanaged funds in a grave way, wouldnt you want to warn new potential backers of the fact? Or would you rather allow them to just blindly continue pouring funds into such mismanaged system?

Now, some people asking for transparency may be indeed trolls, but others may be informed and completely honest in their doubts and have all the reasons in the world to request such information. Serious backers asking for transparency have as many reasons to ask for it probably as CIG has to deny it. But please dont lumpsum every one asking for this as just moaners or trolls.

 

[Backer42]

Now, some people asking for transparency may be indeed trolls, but others may be informed and completely honest in their doubts and have all the reasons in the world to request such information. Serious backers asking for transparency have as many reasons to ask for it probably as CIG has to deny it. But please dont lumpsum every one asking for this as just moaners or trolls.

The discussion about financial transparency came up, because it was promised in the original ToS, when the release date of 2014 is missed by 12 months.

 

[ianw]

The discussion about financial transparency came up, because it was promised in the original ToS, when the release date of 2014 is missed by 12 months.

Yup - just another one of the many things that they've said that's queuing up to come back to bite them in the derriere..

 

[Leper Messiah]

I disagree. If someone was promised a game that would do x,y and z and handed over money based on that, they have a perfect right to question things when it appears the promised features are changing. They also have a right to question what their money is being used for if they are not happy with the results they are seeing. Personally I think having grave concerns but keeping quiet would be, in your words 'VERY VERY stupid'.

I disagree with you, someone in that position should have got out with a full refund WAY before this point. I'd also question someone logic based on the fact that probably EVERY single game in the history of mankind has ended up not being quite what was originally envisioned. Putting money into a game "vision" is daft. That's plain common sense imo.

Mind you if someone did a crowdfunding to bring the Xwing/TIE fighter games up to date I'd plough money into that! (probably already said that several times in these threads!)

I can understand people being upset by the changes, but I do not understand those still with money "invested" undermining the process, then again that's moot with the info Viajero gave me below. I'm under no illusion though that countless other businesses are run half(buttocked) liked SC. just look at the recent banking fiasco's. I'd imagine most "bosses" are winging it and spend as much time praying as they are dinging the secretary!

The difference being Valve didn't ask for money 6 years in advance only to deliver an altered product than the one initially sold.

That's true, different business model, but everyone giving CiG the cash KNOWS that fact.

*Mod hat off



I presume you are aware that CR himself has mentioned in several occasions that if pledges were to stop now CIG has already got enough funds to finish it all as promised. So when you equate asking for financial transparency with moaning or causing a ruckus / undermining the game, you ll have to pardon some of us for thinking it sounds a bit hyperbolic.

One of the main reasons some backers are asking for that financial transparency is precisely because they have doubts those CR statements still hold valid.

If it turned out indeed that the project had mismanaged funds in a grave way, wouldnt you want to warn new potential backers of the fact? Or would you rather allow them to just blindly continue pouring funds into such mismanaged system?

Now, some people asking for transparency may be indeed trolls, but others may be informed and completely honest in their doubts and have all the reasons in the world to request such information. Serious backers asking for transparency have as many reasons to ask for it probably as CIG has to deny it. But please dont lumpsum every one asking for this as just moaners or trolls.

All excellent points and I do agree, but most post I read are not really of people "concerned" IMO. It's far more bashing for bashing's sake. There are clearly those complaining and highlighting issues the right way, I am gratefull for those posts and used them to make a decision to only come in with a sale at a low price point and when I was still going to get both Sq42 and SC (which could change LOL!)



I do find this thread funny as I'm neither a SC/WC Chris Roberts fan or an ELITE, Frontier, Brabham fan. Both sides extremes are equally as bad as the other.

 

[Monk]

Mind you if someone did a crowdfunding to bring the Xwing/TIE fighter games up to date I'd plough money into that! (probably already said that several times in these threads!)

Disney will probably never let loose the grip to allow a gritty and serious TIE game. Never again, I'm afraid.

Sorry for the off topic...but one cannot mention TIE Fighter without me saying something too

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Main problem is if anybody got to do a Tie Fighter game it has to be EA. Not sure that ends good

 

[Marcus]

Main problem is if anybody got to do a Tie Fighter game it has to be EA. Not sure that ends good

Whaaaaaaat?!?!? It would be AMAZING!!!

Think of all the TIE fighter variants they could sell as DLC!

 

[shadragon]

This is my opinion based on what I've seen / read so far from various sources.

I presume you are aware that CR himself has mentioned in several occasions that if pledges were to stop now CIG has already got enough funds to finish it all as promised.

Yet, they are still not only accepting peoples money, they've been actively selling ships and other product for years to a game that is nowhere near release. I find that disingenuous at best, duplicitous at worse. 'We really don't need your money, but give it to us anyway,' isn't a great confidence builder.

One of the main reasons some backers are asking for that financial transparency is precisely because they have doubts those CR statements still hold valid.

Audited finances were promised as part of the original ToS. Audited is a key word and has legal implications.

"RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost." That is now outstanding by several months. Well, it would be if they didn't change the ToS to remove that teeny little obligation. The Escapist article drew great criticism, but I don't think the threatened RSI lawsuit against them ever materialized. Why is that? There's been many indications of wrong doing, multiple senior people leaving, a string of broken promises, downsizing / moving staff, failure to file proper tax documents, a modified ToS, mismanagement, misallocation of funds, etc., etc., etc.

The real kicker is that this discussion, one of the most active Star Citizen threads out there, is not even hosted on RSI servers. Way too many people have been banned from RSI for making negative comments and simply asking reasonable questions. Then they are attacked by rabid supporters outside of the site, just for daring to ask what they are doing with their money.

There are so many red flags here it looks like an old May Day parade in Moscow at the peak of the Cold War.

To the supporters of RSI - CiG, I hope you get everything that was promised to you. If you do, I will retract everything I said here, shall publicly apologize and buy a copy of Star Citizen myself.

I sincerely doubt that will ever happen, however.

 

[Backer42]

Yet, they are still not only accepting peoples money, they've been actively selling ships and other product for years to a game that is nowhere near release. I find that disingenuous at best, duplicitous at worse. 'We really don't need your money, but give it to us anyway,' isn't a great confidence builder.

RSI seems to go into panic mode (means sudden surprise JPEG sale) when their daily inflow falls below 20k for a longer time. The "we can survive on zero income till release" is not all believable to me.