Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers

[Urantiafox]

The magic of space

Yes, the problem is space is huge, and consequently boring. Making beautiful scenery has been done, now its time to fill it in.

The original Elite wasnt this big and so now we see the vacuum. Also the very basic feel of the BBC version ALLOWED THE IMAGINATION to fill the gaps rather than fill it in for the imagination.

But what I think is needed is watching sci fi movies for the designers, after all so many great games have been pulled off films, and its the sci fi films that have inspired the games initially I would have thought. After all if we hadnt had 2001 a space odessey, star wars, star trek Galactica etc would we be here at all?

I recall some very good set pieces in games, like the snowspeeders taking down at ats on hoth, or people stealing the climactic scene of Independance day. Take all the bits we wish we could take part in in films and place them in as set happenings, then we are starting to have some content that people will obviously LOVE.

Yes, I believe Elite is way too technical and that point of view in implementing design has been exhausted, we now need entertainment as well as accuracy, unless this is a game ONLY for those who enjoy accuracy and measurement.

Every game designer has to ask themselves if they are making games for everyone, or only for themselves.

I like it, but it needs improving.
And... I want my damn midnight paint jobs, which I still dont have.

C

 

[JeffRyan]

Darn, but you chaps are so black and white!

The OP, in my view, has a point but overstated it, as indeed I feel you have with your response.

For me there is some truth in the assertion, but I wouldn't dream of stating FD lacked creativity.

I think they've created a fantastic program that simulates the galaxy and is capable of dealing with the ebb and flow of competing human powers and providing missions and trading opportunities for the player etc etc. but they've been seduced by the all powerful program and they feel that to create a hand coded mission, a unique adventure for the player would be akin to vandalism. Far better to produce routines to generate predictable and calculated returns that can, in theory, be replayed infinitely.

The trouble is the routines are by their nature producing gameplay that becomes routine. So yes, for my taste, FD should maintain the excellent background simulation, but be bold enough to throw some hand coded spice into the mix.

Meh, I dealt with this in my following posts. I actually agree with the points the OP made, just not his conclusions.

 

[Sapient6]

I understand. If you really know them that well it should be no problem.
Anyway, they can have a look while you play and decide for themselves, or watch some of the thousands of gameplay vids online.

Haha, welllll... I'm an explorer, so watching me play ED is not a high adrenaline experience. Well, okay, it could be, because I take HUGE risks while out in the black for months at a time. But if you don't have that time invested with me, it's still going to look pretty tame.

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Yes, the problem is space is huge, and consequently boring. Making beautiful scenery has been done, now its time to fill it in.

The original Elite wasnt this big and so now we see the vacuum. Also the very basic feel of the BBC version ALLOWED THE IMAGINATION to fill the gaps rather than fill it in for the imagination.

But what I think is needed is watching sci fi movies for the designers, after all so many great games have been pulled off films, and its the sci fi films that have inspired the games initially I would have thought. After all if we hadnt had 2001 a space odessey, star wars, star trek Galactica etc would we be here at all?

I recall some very good set pieces in games, like the snowspeeders taking down at ats on hoth, or people stealing the climactic scene of Independance day. Take all the bits we wish we could take part in in films and place them in as set happenings, then we are starting to have some content that people will obviously LOVE.

Yes, I believe Elite is way too technical and that point of view in implementing design has been exhausted, we now need entertainment as well as accuracy, unless this is a game ONLY for those who enjoy accuracy and measurement.

Every game designer has to ask themselves if they are making games for everyone, or only for themselves.

I like it, but it needs improving.
And... I want my damn midnight paint jobs, which I still dont have.

C

The problem with mixing Set Pieces into a game based around procedural generation is the infinite repetition. When you get right down to it the Coriolis stations are breathtaking and awesome, and we've seen them so many times, and we're going to see them thousands more, and if we go to a new system we'll see 1-5 more Coriolis stations that are essentially identical to every other one we've seen and so our response is "BOOOOORING."

How many times are you going to be thrilled to take part in repelling the AT AT assault on Hoth? 10 times? 100? 10,000 times?

 

[Urantiafox]

Haha, welllll... I'm an explorer, so watching me play ED is not a high adrenaline experience. Well, okay, it could be, because I take HUGE risks while out in the black for months at a time. But if you don't have that time invested with me, it's still going to look pretty tame.

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The problem with mixing Set Pieces into a game based around procedural generation is the infinite repetition. When you get right down to it the Coriolis stations are breathtaking and awesome, and we've seen them so many times, and we're going to see them thousands more, and if we go to a new system we'll see 1-5 more Coriolis stations that are essentially identical to every other one we've seen and so our response is "BOOOOORING."

How many times are you going to be thrilled to take part in repelling the AT AT assault on Hoth? 10 times? 100? 10,000 times?

Dont know but A battle is way more entertaining than looking at a spinning space station with music going ' oooooohhhh - aaaaaahhh' in the background. You really have to have a few incidences that repeat with variations to start with, but of course it wont fix the problem wholly , its a START and a step in the right direction. Elite needs some arcade thinking, some mad carelessness, not constant responsibility and earning and cold vaccuum of space because ITS NOT FUN> The game is unbalanced. We have one side, lets try and get the other, quarrelling about it wont help, and Im not here to score points, just to give a view.
Cheers

C

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

yes it needs, it is very obvious that some game designers lack to connect all the technical mechanics to a whole game. Also they are not able to see the "flaws" in their deisgns. A proper game designer would be able to understand and see them (at least mots of them). But since all is a very lose cluster of submodules, there seems to be no one having the Oversight over all these featurs.

 

[almostpilot]

I played ED since the premium beta for more than one year. Since Horizons was launched completely lacking in game content, I stopped playing. In fact this year I spent playing, I had faith that the developers would deepen the mechanics that exist in the game, which were released as placeholders. But really they insist on launching new things superficially and they will leave the existing gameplay aside, or what is worse, things that worked just do not work anymore (see the missions). How can a responsible developer, just leave the missions in the way they are now, as long as Horizons was launched? The game needs not only of game designers but also more competence, responsibility and quality of releases.

 

[M66]

Game design is extremely difficult. It's not easy to create the next 'Tetris','Angry Birds' or a GTA series. If it was easy, everyone would be a millionaire game designer.

I certainly don't know what it needs, or doesn't need.

I know I enjoy playing Solitaire more than ED. I get closure playing solitaire, there is a purpose to every card I move. IMO ED feels like I'm just moving cards around a big card table....no purpose, no closure.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Game design is extremely difficult. It's not easy to create the next 'Tetris','Angry Birds' or a GTA series. If it was easy, everyone would be a millionaire game designer.

I certainly don't know what it needs, or doesn't need.

I know I enjoy playing Solitaire more than ED. I get closure playing solitaire, there is a purpose to every card I move. IMO ED feels like I'm just moving cards around a big card table....no purpose, no closure.

There wouldn't be so many extremely succesful indie developments and one man projects if game design would be "hard". In fact its not hard. It is juts a matter of time to let someone sink into the games features and make out how things should work with eahc others. Tell me how "hard" is it to deisgn ranking up for a faction when you particpate in a CG for it? Or PP (where you play for a faction) to also push your rank in this faction. The fact that this does not exist is either an extremely bad game deisgn decisions, or a big oversight a serious game designers would have seen. It's not hard. It's what all the 10.000's of games do since gaming exists.

 

[SentineI]

While I think Elite is technically awesome, with beautiful sound and graphics and really sexy ships - my friends who ask me if I should join them I always say "just wait".

Unfortunately that's the same for me. I keep saying to wait until after the next big update, which will probably make ED much better, but it hasn't yet happened . Word of mouth should be FDev's biggest asset, not something that holds it back, if only they'd pay more attention to the players they already have, rather than chasing ever-diminishing new players (who don't know anyone who has ED) with esoteric shiny new features.

I absolutely love this game. I really do. I spend most of my available gaming time with it.

AND I've told my friends not to buy it.

It's not that I'm a jerk or something, it's just that I know my friends pretty well, and I know that ED's shortcomings are in places that will be more irritating to them than they are to me. They won't be happy if I tell them to jump in, and they certainly won't be thanking me.

That's me too. Well, maybe I don't play it so much these days, but I have played it to death. But I'm also a pretty big SF & space nut. The friends who I *could* recommend ED to are not nearly so much like that. I'm sure they'd have great fun for the first (say) 20-30 hours learning to fly the ship & do everything on offer, but once they got to the actual multi-player "content", I'm pretty sure they'd go "Is that all?" and feel they'd really wasted their time. Horizons added some stuff, but I still don't feel it's enough yet.


Frankly FDev chose the wrong development & sales strategy, of chasing new players using discounts/sales & big headline new features, rather than focusing on making the existing players happy enough that they'd recommend it to all their friends. A great short term cash influx, but long term shooting themselves in the foot by having a large "customer base" who may not give them a second chance.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I played ED since the premium beta for more than one year. Since Horizons was launched completely lacking in game content, I stopped playing. In fact this year I spent playing, I had faith that the developers would deepen the mechanics that exist in the game, which were released as placeholders. But really they insist on launching new things superficially and they will leave the existing gameplay aside, or what is worse, things that worked just do not work anymore (see the missions). How can a responsible developer, just leave the missions in the way they are now, as long as Horizons was launched? The game needs not only of game designers but also more competence, responsibility and quality of releases.

I pretty sure the missions are getting a big overhaul in the next update. For all we know, this could have taken a few years to get right.

 

[Cosmo]

Frankly FDev chose the wrong development & sales strategy, of chasing new players using discounts/sales & big headline new features, rather than focusing on making the existing players happy enough that they'd recommend it to all their friends. A great short term cash influx, but long term shooting themselves in the foot by having a large "customer base" who may not give them a second chance.

This, player retention is the most important thing. A large drop in active players in a short time is not good. They have to keep the current player base engaged by adding more depth, MMO and sandbox features.

 

[xXCheeChowXx]

Nice Moody Blues Avatar

 

[Soliluna]

I understand. If you really know them that well it should be no problem.
Anyway, they can have a look while you play and decide for themselves, or watch some of the thousands of gameplay vids online.

Anyone I don't know well, wouldn't be considered a friend

 

[Mitore]

Streaming galaxy without loading screens and some sand to our sandbox and people will be happy.
I will buy one more expansion that will allow us to land on planets with atmosphere and then i'm done paying them unless we get some real depth to the game. I am patient, but not that patient.

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This, player retention is the most important thing. A large drop in active players in a short time is not good. They have to keep the current player base engaged by adding more depth, MMO and sandbox features.

I think there is problem with gameplay, they seem to be in phase of adding game features and not yet reached phase where they connect things to create awesome gameplay with nice depth that will be engaging to players. This game is early access and from technical point they done epic job. Flight mechanics are nice but speed limits and rotation limits are kinda strange, in space you should be able to rotate ship as fast as you can until it can just break in half, but here you can't turn off that limiter.

Game feels like it is trying to get finished and they wanted to release game even though they are not even close to be done with it. 10 year lifetime plan is nice but how many players will be still left? You don't need that many game mechanics to create good game depth. Maybe they have some epic gameplay in their minds but they haven't finished all the game mechanics to put it all together and are stalling players so they can drop epic game time later on. I don't know but i hope that this is the case.

 

[SentineI]

This game is early access

Technically speaking, that is no-longer the case, on Steam anyway, since DLC cannot be marked "Early Access", so the Horizons "DLC" isn't.

 

[PiLhEaD]

I've got an idea!

Let's each of us spend 10 minutes thinking of one positive and concrete idea that we feel would make ED more enjoyable.

It can be background radio chatter in busy areas of space, or the navigation computer retaining a list of the last 20 systems visited in an easliy selectable list, or perhaps large-volume missions being able to be completed in multiple trips - so whatever it is, it needs to be a solid concept that can be encapsulated in one short sentence.

Then, once we've got this clear idea in our minds, let's head over to the 'Suggestions & Feedback' portion of the forum, and see if we can find that idea there, and add some positive energy to that debate.

However, if we can't find our idea, then that's great as it's a fresh idea, and it's time for you to start a new thread in that section.

My suspicion is that the S&F section of the forum may well be where FDev lurk the most... so let's get those great ideas rolling...

 

[CMDR Valleys]

I've got an idea!

Let's each of us spend 10 minutes thinking of one positive and concrete idea that we feel would make ED more enjoyable.

It can be background radio chatter in busy areas of space, or the navigation computer retaining a list of the last 20 systems visited in an easliy selectable list, or perhaps large-volume missions being able to be completed in multiple trips - so whatever it is, it needs to be a solid concept that can be encapsulated in one short sentence.

Then, once we've got this clear idea in our minds, let's head over to the 'Suggestions & Feedback' portion of the forum, and see if we can find that idea there, and add some positive energy to that debate.

However, if we can't find our idea, then that's great as it's a fresh idea, and it's time for you to start a new thread in that section.

My suspicion is that the S&F section of the forum may well be where FDev lurk the most... so let's get those great ideas rolling...

Good suggestion if you'd like to champion this little idea i would be extremely greatful.

MISSION PLANNER FOR COMMUNITY GROUPS
I think Elite would benefit from A player/player group missions , to facilitate this I think FD should release a mission planner that would allow these groups to develop complex and involved missions with final approval by FD before publishing in the game of course. This I believe would engage the player base and create a lot of new and creative content on top of the new mission structures coming in this season.

Just being able to add text to the existing missions alone would result in very complex and involved storylines and in one stroke invalidate the claims of lack of depth.

 

[Tom Valkyr]

In my opinion FD did great job in recreating space and planets, physics and flight mechanics. But still after a year from launch core gameplay is left untouched by designers. Missions and lack of content have been topic in numerous threads telling how empty and challenging they feel. FD constantly told promises that these are placeholders for future improovments. Fine. During ED:H prelaunch phase mission overhauling was second big thing with landing and new ships. Fine. Then in release notes for 2.0 you can find this
- Added new missions
- Don't die missions
- Don't get scanned missions
- Multi-stage missions
- Missions can be received in space
- Assassination variants
- Contact missions
- Unique cargo missions - you have to deliver what you are given
- Timed window missions
- Added new open space scenarios:
- Search and rescue scenarios
- Wrecked ships scenarios
- New deep space salvage scenarios
- Distress call scenarios
- Alliance vip escort
Fine. But do they work? No. How long they don't work? Since 2.0 release, for the past 2 months.
So how will 50%sale improve situation ?
Isn't it obvious that less people are buying the game and more people have stopped playing because lack of content?
And FD seem to add another season of placeholders which fixing will be promissed in Season 3.
I played ED for a whole year, hoping for great stuff in ED:H. I don't play any more because I don't enjoy just landing on planets over and over. And doing nothing but refuel and tako off to land again. I don't play anymore because Season 2 'roadmap' seem full of new placeholders , nothing more.

So I agree, Elite needs good game designers.

 

[DHMeyer]

I think that ED needs a deeper storyline. OK, there is Power Play and I'm exploring that now, but it doesn't seem to be a fascinating storyline. There are powers, which try to get more power and influence. And yes, it's realistic, they are not simply black and white, they are all grey. But a game needs some things to be black or white, good or evil. Making choices is what makes gaming fun. Whilst in ED making choices makes no difference. Yes, it is epic to go to some distant place in the universe, discover something nobody has seen before. Yes, it is really cool to fly the ships and battle the opponents. But this sort of fun is temporary. For some people it will take longer to get bored of it than for others, but eventually ED will turn into a cold and empty universe for almost every player out there. From casual gamers to hardcore backers. So yes, I agree with the OP that ED needs some creativity when it comes to the storyline design. I feel that when it comes to the storyline it remained somewhere in the 90'
Games changed since then and now there is a need for a game to be more immersive not only in terms of the mechanics, visuals and sounds, but also, or maybe most importantly, in terms of the storyline. ED needs something epic, something to match the scale of the universe. That's where Star Citizen is going to have an edge (if they ever manage to get through beyond the single player version). It has a more heroic feel to it and that's what the players want. That's what could make also ED truly a game to play for another decade.

This all being said, I love the game for what it is. I just can see it has real potential to become something so much more...

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

I think that ED needs a deeper storyline. OK, there is Power Play and I'm exploring that now, but it doesn't seem to be a fascinating storyline. There are powers, which try to get more power and influence. And yes, it's realistic, they are not simply black and white, they are all grey. But a game needs some things to be black or white, good or evil. Making choices is what makes gaming fun. Whilst in ED making choices makes no difference. Yes, it is epic to go to some distant place in the universe, discover something nobody has seen before. Yes, it is really cool to fly the ships and battle the opponents. But this sort of fun is temporary. For some people it will take longer to get bored of it than for others, but eventually ED will turn into a cold and empty universe for almost every player out there. From casual gamers to hardcore backers. So yes, I agree with the OP that ED needs some creativity when it comes to the storyline design. I feel that when it comes to the storyline it remained somewhere in the 90'
Games changed since then and now there is a need for a game to be more immersive not only in terms of the mechanics, visuals and sounds, but also, or maybe most importantly, in terms of the storyline. ED needs something epic, something to match the scale of the universe. That's where Star Citizen is going to have an edge (if they ever manage to get through beyond the single player version). It has a more heroic feel to it and that's what the players want. That's what could make also ED truly a game to play for another decade.

This all being said, I love the game for what it is. I just can see it has real potential to become something so much more...

Elite was never that sort of game though, Star Citizen is approaching the genre from a different angle, as is NMS for example. They can ll coexist peacefully without having to copy each over.

Yes the game needs more depth, I don't think it needs a 'story' though, the point is you write your own story.