News Elite Dangerous - Steam And Store Sale

[slothman320]

I do see where you are going with this and I totally respect that, but I do think that functions like WINGS are vital and are broken. Outside of that I agree with you.

Wing's are the power steering in this analogy

 

[forumuser8276]

The game is no longer crowd funded unless you consider WOW or any other game that charges for DLC or expansions to be crowd funded.

FD is is asking for players' money now for ED product not due for delivery for 12 months or more. WoW is not.

Plus some Microsoft money for the XB1 timed exclusive.

Eh, what?? There's no such money listed in the accounts and no such deal was ever announced by FD.

They have sold well over a million copies of ED.

And have already spent all of the money that earned.

But to be clear, FD have clearly stated they will continue to develop Elite Dangerous for over a decade if player interest holds.

I've never seen FD say that.

 

[who?]

Indeed, if I were FD I wouldnt be so cordial as they are.. Yet I've seen a vast improvement over time, dont you ?

I've never seen this sort of thing previously and I've been onling gaming for a very long time. You think this is just something about spaceships?

I'm not sure if it's unusual. I can only say the ED model is new to me. Most games I've played have lasted a few months, I perhaps bought a DLC pack or two after which they largely were forgotten about. ED is a multi-year game with a significant cost involved for any player involved. I don't mean that as any kind of criticism, it's a massively ambitious project and I fully accept it's neither going to be cheap nor delivered quickly. I'm very happy with the way the game is progressing.

But I'm also mindful of human nature, and people do tend to become more possessive over time. Longer term players will start to dictate when newer players should and (more likely) shouldn't get. Newer players will react saying they also paid for the game and should be treated equally. Longer term players will react, saying they paid more and have been playing longer etc..etc..

As for the improvements - there certainly have been huge improvements in both the game and the engagement with the community over the last year.

Still there are some things that irk me - too many vague, promising comments which turn out to be a bit less impressive in reality:
- There will be "more than 30" ships: And we get exactly 31 ships, 2 of which aren't in the main game and 8 of which are slight variants of existing ships.
- The Anaconda can carry ships "up to Sidewinder size": Up to, but not including. So ferrying cargo to outposts looks like a non-runner.
- There will be large 'executive control' ships: Destroyers? Frigates? But now they seem to use the term 'executive' to describe the Corvette and Cutter, which is a step down from what was initially expected.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to end on a negative note. So... fluffy bunnies.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

while i welcome the change. better late then never.

can someone clarify what this means for 3.x season when it is released? do i have to have horizons to buy me 3.x season dlc?

 

[forumuser8276]

Content reductions aside, another thing you don't get is 13€ in change. That's the amount of the reduction in Horizons price between those days.

That is not true at all. The price of the complete game (I did not own Dangerous) is 54 €.

It is true. The price of the complete (if you can call it that) game is 40.69€.

It got reduced since you bought, when last Friday FD split Horizons into Elite Dangerous plus Elite Dangerous: Horizons Season Pass, and dropped the price of both.

 

[forumuser8276]

ED *was* developed with crowdfunding. That is no longer the case, and the capital investment that FD has received over the last few years completely outstrips the amount raised in the kickstarter

You'd learn a lot from reading FD's financials.

Such as:

1) FD's last capital investment was nearly 3 years ago.
2) FD has already spent it all.
3) FD's last audited accounts show it burning money at nearly £2million a month.
4) FD's last trading update shows cash is down by nearly £2million in the last 6 months.
5) FD has nowhere near enough cash to cover ED development inc delivering Horizons.

FD is using the money it is taking from Horizons orders now to fund the development of Horizons over the next 12 months.

HORIZONS IS A ...... SEASON ...... PASS

Yes FD have labelled it a seasons pass. Which makes no difference to the fact it is product shipped unfinished with promises for future content, for up-front payment now, hoping that the full product will be shipped later.

Spot the similarity to ED?? It is called crowdfunding.

 

[Patrick_68000]

It is true. The price of the complete (if you can call it that) game is 40.69€.

It got reduced since you bought, when last Friday FD split Horizons into Elite Dangerous plus Elite Dangerous: Horizons Season Pass, and dropped the price of both.

http://s16.postimg.org/8gmzzair9/ED_store.png

I believe that these discounts are limited in time

 

[Slopey]

Yes FD have labelled it a seasons pass. Which makes no difference to the fact it is product shipped unfinished with promises for future content, for up-front payment now, hoping that the full product will be shipped later.

Spot the similarity to ED?? It is called crowdfunding.

Crowdfunding is where you take money to fund a product which you haven't yet sold or released. i.e. "funding" something which will be available in the future.

Horizons is "for sale", and already exists in the form of the first update in the series. So it's already a product, and already available.

Hence - this isn't crowdfunding. If they use the Horizons money to make the rest of Horizons, that's fine - but it's not "crowdfunding".

I'll leave you to it now as frankly I have better things to do than argue semantics. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you want a refund, contact support. Either way, do you have to keep endlessly moaning? I'm not even sure what your point is beyond the fact that you seem to hate Elite Dangerous/Horizons - if you have a particular issue, please contact support and they'll try their best to resolve it

 

[who?]

3) FD's last audited accounts show it burning money at nearly £2million a month.

Mind if I ask where this number comes from? Sounds very high for a company with ~260 employees (average £7,700 per employee per month, though obviously there are other expenditures other than payroll)

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Got to say your argument is incredibly tiresome. Heaps of games on steam are infact still in easrly access and go on sale all the time.. .

Indeed Ark apparently a decent enough game is still in early access as is $12 in the humble bundle now!!!!

 

[forumuser8276]

Crowdfunding is where you take money to fund a product which you haven't yet sold or released. i.e. "funding" something which will be available in the future.

We are in full agreement there. Hence my: "... ED development is being financed by crowdfunding. Only 20% of Horizons has been released and sales now are paying for the development of the remaining 80% until the end of this year or further. "

If they use the Horizons money to make the rest of Horizons, that's fine - but it's not "crowdfunding".

A reminder. "Crowdfunding is where you take money to fund a product which you haven't yet sold or released. i.e. "funding" something which will be available in the future." (<<< that's you, above.)

 

[Yaffle]

You'd learn a lot from reading FD's financials.

Such as:

1) FD's last capital investment was nearly 3 years ago.
2) FD has already spent it all.
3) FD's last audited accounts show it burning money at nearly £2million a month.
4) FD's last trading update shows cash is down by nearly £2million in the last 6 months.
5) FD has nowhere near enough cash to cover ED development inc delivering Horizons.

FD is using the money it is taking from Horizons orders now to fund the development of Horizons over the next 12 months.



Yes FD have labelled it a seasons pass. Which makes no difference to the fact it is product shipped unfinished with promises for future content, for up-front payment now, hoping that the full product will be shipped later.

Spot the similarity to ED?? It is called crowdfunding.

Here is a link to the financials if anyone is interested - https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...E+ppWbsOJNfs+bIeH6Kn3v6piRCc92/2AzTMg1ajotQU=

1) Unsure what you mean by capital investment. Non current assets have increased over the last two years (mainly IP). If that was what you meant. If you meant getting a loan/issuing shares why would you if you have a ton of cash in the bank? Apple's last capital investment was even longer ago, how worried are people about that? In any event there was an allotment of shares in October last.

2) Again, no idea where this comes from as it is generating cash from operating activities. £7million in the period.

3) See above.

4) What? No it does not. Anyway, the trading announcement is tomorrow, so unless you have inside info...

5) Opinion, not from the financials.

 

[Yaffle]

It seems you are right, but somebody from Frontier won't tell me that.
All they do is, knowing it is hard to follow for a newcomer, to obscure things for me, as if I am some kind of kid, and let me be "relieved" with nothing.
This really hackss me off: "Let's try have him not understand".
I feel ripped off AND mistreated now.
If I had bought it with steam, I could have a refund and rebuy the game cheaper.
I already was annoyed they let me buy it 13€ higher, while they knew about the sale 2 days later,
but now I am double annoyed for their efforts to keep me in the dark.

PM Zac and explain what happened, if I understand correctly you purchased it two days before the price-drop, which was something they'd probably refund the difference on.

 

[Cosmos]

I'm not sure if it's unusual. I can only say the ED model is new to me. Most games I've played have lasted a few months, I perhaps bought a DLC pack or two after which they largely were forgotten about. ED is a multi-year game with a significant cost involved for any player involved. I don't mean that as any kind of criticism, it's a massively ambitious project and I fully accept it's neither going to be cheap nor delivered quickly. I'm very happy with the way the game is progressing.

But I'm also mindful of human nature, and people do tend to become more possessive over time. Longer term players will start to dictate when newer players should and (more likely) shouldn't get. Newer players will react saying they also paid for the game and should be treated equally. Longer term players will react, saying they paid more and have been playing longer etc..etc..

As for the improvements - there certainly have been huge improvements in both the game and the engagement with the community over the last year.

Still there are some things that irk me - too many vague, promising comments which turn out to be a bit less impressive in reality:
- There will be "more than 30" ships: And we get exactly 31 ships, 2 of which aren't in the main game and 8 of which are slight variants of existing ships.
- The Anaconda can carry ships "up to Sidewinder size": Up to, but not including. So ferrying cargo to outposts looks like a non-runner.
- There will be large 'executive control' ships: Destroyers? Frigates? But now they seem to use the term 'executive' to describe the Corvette and Cutter, which is a step down from what was initially expected.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to end on a negative note. So... fluffy bunnies.

I'm not going to make excuses for FD.. In the past they have made promises and not kept them (one of these is stlll a major source of grievance for myself). There is obviously at times a differennce in what is advertised and what we get.. I do find it unacceptable too. These days I take a more pragmatic approach but in some areas I am still dissapointed.. The best way forward all thing considerd is to work as constructively as we can with da management and the devs and community managers..

We do need to hold FD to account when it comes to promises and commitments that arent met.. but reading between the lines I think there is much more going on and they are indeed working in a competitive market.

A true friend speaks the truth to one another and I've always done that. Whilst I see effort to remedy things and an open ear I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.. When I compare things this time last year to now its a world of improvement.. Rome, afterall, wasn't built in a day.

 

[forumuser8276]

1) Unsure what you mean by capital investment.

Capital Investment.

Non current assets have increased over the last two years (mainly IP).

An asset increase largely due to the Elite franchise rights purchase that Frontier put in the books at £5million ... despite having not actually purchased the rights at all.

If that was what you meant.

It's not what I meant. Frontier's non-current assets such as IP won't finance ED development. Things would be different if Frontier had had any success at all in licencing its much-trumpeted Cobra engine IP to other developers. The company reports show no licences sold.

If you meant getting a loan/issuing shares why would you if you have a ton of cash in the bank?

Frontier doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank. It has only about five months' costs. Which is probably why yes it did recently seek authorisation to raise cash by issuing 33% more shares, to the substantial detriment of existing investors.

Apple's last capital investment was even longer ago, how worried are people about that?

People are unworried about Apple because Apple 1) has product selling well... even without a 75% price cut. 2) doesn't have a £1.5million debt to backers for undelivered product 3) isn't trying to sell product that is only 20% finished without the cash to complete it. Note the contrast with Frontier.

In any event there was an allotment of shares in October last.

If true then FDEV have been extremely naughty by failing to declare that to Companies House and the London Stock Exchange.

2) Again, no idea where this comes from as it is generating cash from operating activities. £7million in the period.

I can't imagine what makes you think that. The last accounts and trading update shows a large cash loss.

FD's last trading update shows cash is down by nearly £2million in the last 6 months.

4) What? No it does not.

Yes, Frontier's cash is down by nearly £2million in the last 6 months. See for yourself here.

Anyway, the trading announcement is tomorrow, so unless you have inside info...

No. A Notice of Results is tomorrow. The trading update showing the last period's cash loss was four weeks ago.

But anyway, nice try, and +rep!

 

[Yaffle]

Capital Investment.

Again, there is no need to keep dumping capital into a business for no reason at all. Nobody does that.

Frontier doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank. It has only about five months' costs. Which is probably why yes it did recently seek authorisation to raise cash by issuing 33% more shares, to the substantial detriment of existing investors.

Well, the financials say £10M sitting there. I call that a ton of cash.

People are unworried about Apple because Apple 1) has product selling well... even without a 75% price cut. 2) doesn't have a £1.5million debt to backers for undelivered product 3) isn't trying to sell product that is only 20% finished without the cash to complete it. Note the contrast with Frontier.

FDEV is also making good EBITDA, good profit. It has cash. It has a current ratio of over 4, and gearing down from 31 to 4. Yes, that's seriously worrying all that reduction of risk.

If true then FDEV have been extremely naughty by failing to declare that to Companies House and the London Stock Exchange.

Like disclosing it here - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02892559/filing-history. Yes. Hiding it by disclosing it is really bad.

I can't imagine what makes you think that. The last accounts and trading update shows a large cash loss.

Which is why reading is so important.

There are many reasons cash can go down. For example buying a large non-current asset, or repaying a bank loan etc. I looked at cash generated from operating activities. You may know it in its weaker form of EBITDA. That is positive seven million. Looking in the cashflow statement explains the rest. This is the cash the business itself is generating. It is positive.

Yes, Frontier's cash is down by nearly £2million in the last 6 months. See for yourself here.

See above, there are many things that affect cash. Generating it from your trading is by far the most important.

No. A Notice of Results is tomorrow. The trading update showing the last period's cash loss was four weeks ago.

But anyway, nice try, and +rep! [/QUOTE]

I am still looking for evidence that:

FD's last audited accounts show it burning money at nearly £2million a month.

. That would be a cash loss of £24million. Not even close.

So, to that statement:

Cash generation from operating activities is £2.6 million. Cash is down overall as there has been a £4.6M investment in intangible fixed assets. This is a Good Thing.

Thanks for the rep, here's the trading announcement:

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail/FDEV/12692904.html

As you said, nice try. But res ipsa loquitur​ as they say in the old Italian.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Something a wise man once told me.
"Negative response is almost always exaggerated, because it involves a lot of emotions and it imprints in our mind deeper than a positive one.
Divide all the nay-yellers by 10" https://forums-cdn.frontier.co.uk/images/smilies-frontier/wink.png

A wise man knows where to get the information at which degree the negative response is true. A wise man would not just divde it by 10.

 

[Yaffle]

What's all this? A Financial Analyst chest-thumping session?

Not exactly, more using actual data rather than rampant speculation. In short, FD isn't about to go bust.

 

[Shar]

A wise man knows where to get the information at which degree the negative response is true. A wise man would not just divde it by 10.

Your right of course divide it by between 5 and 20. just messing don't get all serious on me. happy days i,m sure you get the point though.

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Not exactly, more using actual data rather than rampant speculation. In short, FD isn't about to go bust.

Thank goodness for that i was just about to sell my shares.

 

[CMDR Thon Mystra]

Indeed Ark apparently a decent enough game is still in early access as is $12 in the humble bundle now!!!!

WHAT!!!111!!1!!????

I paid £30 for Ark on release!!!! I'm gonna stamp my feet and cry about new players getting a way better deal than me!!

Oh wait...no...I'm an adult and these things happen.