Horizons Elite Needs Game Designers

[Hilight]

[QUOTE sod that:

>>It lacks heart and soul. It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

Fully concur; these guys are trying to be astrophysicists rather than gamers. Funnily enough I am astrophysicist, but I haven't played Elite for months because it is BORING.

Humans need stories.

Regards

Frontier Developments has produced and ported twenty-nine games since 1994. They are no strangers to PC and game console development. Having stayed in business that long and having produced a fairly wide variety of games for a number of different platforms over the years is a pretty good indication they have however much creativity they need to have to produce games. The fact that Elite covers so much new ground in PC game development is also an sure indication of copious amounts of creativity at Frontier because that is an absolute must for anyone who wants to break with the normal way of going about things. Personally, I think that when some complain about Elite what they are really complaining about is the fact that Elite is different from the sort of games they are used to playing. It strikes me as funny that the same bunch of people who complain because the game encourages you to use your own creativity and imagination when you play are the same bunch that complain those who created the game lack creativity LOLOL

 

[Sanderson]

I thought (been wrong before, maybe once, maybe) that ED is a sim of sorts and Frontier essentially are providing us the tools to develop our own story. No?

Serious comment. I'm not trying to be condescending. Have you tried, for example, just picking a group, faction. government or whatever, even outside of PP and making them your sworn enemy? It's sounds a bit cheesey I know but, stick with me a moment longer. Try it, pick an enemy and got after them, while trying to preserve your own life and see what happens. No need for a story or a mission to direct the confrontation and consequences, you can choose to do it yourself. Trust me, the game will get interesting real quick.

Choose a path, good, bad, immoral, moral or whatever, stick with it and see what happens. Not having fun doing that? Reset and start a brand new life or just change your ways on the spot. Find some friends, form a squad and do the same thing. Or, something else. Maybe you don't like freighters, so the one precious hour a night you can play you spend every minute blasting Lakons to bits becoming a notorious criminal? Or spend that hour tracking the most wanted player across the galaxy?

I like stories, I like complex, coherent, persistent missions, I like "content" too. It's cool some don't agree or see it that way, just trying to help. I have a great time in ED all by myself just drifting to and fro doing whatever crosses my fancy at the time, I'd hope everyone could have a similar experience.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

You cant write your own story as nothing you do has any effect. And the argument Blaze your own Trail is a cheep trick to cover up for missing content and game mechanics.

Here s a computer, write your own game. But pay me for it. Muahahaha

Well that's a blatant lie for a start. Clearly said by someone who has never spent more than a few hours playing the game, yet expects to be able to shape the galaxy to his whim already.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

Mr. Braben and the flight engineers have proven their capability to make a flight sim in space. They have done a marvelous job. The numbers work; ships are of sufficient complexity that learning them is fun but not stressful. They are a joy to pilot, each with unique strengths and weaknesses and their very own feel.

Now though, these same precise, calculating engineers are trying to make a game. And it's failing. And I bet they neither realize that, nor would even understand why if they did. They plugged in numbers and got precise spawn rates, dependable RNG generation of POI and USS areas. Technically everything is working fine.

Technically.

But games, unlike flight sims, aren't purely technical affairs. Games require heart. Soul. Creative insight. Games require a mindset sometimes foreign to those who deal with precise engineering and the cold distance of Mathematica and precision calculation.

As I said elsewhere, not being a creative person is not a failure. Trying to lead a creative endeavor without yourself possessing any hint of creativity, is a failure.

Elite desperately needs the Engineers to just step away. Keep making ships and refining flight models. Sure.

But let someone else make the GAME going forward. Because right now you don't have a game. You have the best flight model in the history of space games, withering away inside a box full of RNG and disparate mechanics. No cohesion. No depth. And so it seems, no real end game for any single mechanic or set of them.

What will Exploration look like when its fully fleshed out? Or Trading? How about Wars and conflict between player factions? You probably don't even know. As far as you are concerned you plug in numbers and they work and all is well.

But its not well. The game...this loose grouping of independent mechanics totally without cohesion...its really not very good. At all.

It lacks depth. It lacks consistent rules. It lacks engaging pkay or emergent play. It lacks heart and soul.

It lacks creativity. So please, go get some.

That seems to be the consensus with this game. I've tried to articulate it like you have but don't have the language stills to do so. The good news is we've seen them start to acknowledge these issues and say they will be working on improve things. It takes time. But that being said the new stuff that they HAVE ADDED that were SUPPOSED to improve things just continued the same trend. They need some fresh new blood in there with some creative freedom to really take things deep.

This next update should add a bunch of content and new possibility. Lets see if the new missions, crafting and looting are just as dry and boring and shallow as the rest of the game. If it is... I think that'll be the last straw for a lot of people. I am keeping the faith though!

 

[Werppa]

Well that's a blatant lie for a start. Clearly said by someone who has never spent more than a few hours playing the game, yet expects to be able to shape the galaxy to his whim already.

I don't think that he meant that he wants to shape the galaxy to his whim after a few hours... And how you don't know that he hasn't played the game for 100 hours? And blazing your own trail kinda means that you can do this RNG stuff or explore these RNG planets etc. The content is missing.

Oh and the current plans for the horizons season (engineers, guardians etc.) just sounds lame... Like really, the first part is just craftable guns, different missions and loot? Second is deployable fighters. Then in the third one you can make a commander. And the one mystery part. Like    ... That was my first thought and I was completely underwhelmed. But that's just my opinion. It's like some engineers plan this game, not game designers.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

Well that's a blatant lie for a start. Clearly said by someone who has never spent more than a few hours playing the game, yet expects to be able to shape the galaxy to his whim already.

I've played for more than a year now and have 390,5 hours of playtime as of today. I know what I'm talking about. The game is not bad, it's just an unpolished diamond. And the polisher should find the PvP sparks in it.

 

[Cosmo]

I think some peoples miss the point they are building this huge game step by step. David Braben cares it did well not in a poor way and we can see how much was done. All you see now is itself a base for further steps and things which they will build upon. Pay attention to all details, you will find your ship was designed having in mind to walk inside. You will find space stations was designed having in mind further walking inside. Planets to land on. First geology, then vulcanism, then spaceports and various missions. Then atmosphere, then life, then civilization ( maybe in another season after earth like planets, mainly for that, i will not be suprised due to the amount of work required ) and more and more missions, all on a massive scale 1:1. Massive civilization you can see from orbit, expecially at night side etc. Powerplay is just at beginning and the new mission system will further give a huge renew on all that.

That's all fine and dandy, but for a massively multiplayer game it's missing fundamental features like chat rooms, player managed clans / guilds, crafting of ships, outposts, claim space territory etc. This enables deep player driven gameplay.

 

[DHMeyer]

That's all fine and dandy, but for a massively multiplayer game it's missing fundamental features like chat rooms, player managed clans / guilds, crafting of ships, outposts, claim space territory etc. This enables deep player driven gameplay.

Especially if it's the players who are supposed to shape the galaxy and write their own story. Let's start with a basic tool: direct trading between players.

 

[SentineI]

That's all fine and dandy, but for a massively multiplayer game it's missing fundamental features like chat rooms, player managed clans / guilds, crafting of ships, outposts, claim space territory etc. This enables deep player driven gameplay.

IMHO, chat rooms could be made a lot more acceptable if they were "in-fiction", say by requiring you to be docked at a space station (or surface settlement), and then only being to other people in either (1) the same system, (2) the same minor-faction, or (3) possibly in the same major-faction (e.g. Federation) although as that would probably be too many people so limit it to (say) a 20 LY radius around you.

The problem all those suggestions is that they go beyond your immediate P2P network bubble/instance. So it would require the server to transfer (and possibly store) all messages. Given that FDev try to limit the load on their servers (due to no game subscription to pay for them), I wonder if this would be too costly for them to consider.

Not sure what you mean by "crafting ships". If you mean designing the look of your ship, then that seems unlikely to happen. (1) It would require FDev to check that every creation/modification wasn't offensive or otherwise objectionable (can you say Space Phallus?). (2) It would be very difficult (or impossible) to get FDev's desired level of polish on user-created ships (which is probably also why Star Citizen won't do it either, AFAIK).

Crafting of outposts, and even more personally claiming space territory, goes fundamentally against the design & fiction of ED, which is that you are an insignificant CMDR among a population of trillions. It also wouldn't work very well with ED's P2P network instances. FDev may devise a solution eventually, but it probably won't work like it does in other MMO/sand-box games.


In general, ED is designed so that individual players can interact (with others they can see), but their persistent effects on the world are somewhat indirect, being only through the BGS. Any enhancements to the game must be made with that in mind.

 

[SentineI]

Especially if it's the players who are supposed to shape the galaxy and write their own story. Let's start with a basic tool: direct trading between players.

I think they don't allow that, for fear of it being abused. You can easily imagine it being used to circumvent account bans/restrictions, as well as circumvent in-game rules that are intended to discourage griefing & anti-social behaviour. It would also instantly create a "gold farming" market, which FDev would find a huge drain of the resources trying to combat (and if they don't combat it then it'd cause all sorts of problems).

 

[SentineI]

I thought (been wrong before, maybe once, maybe) that ED is a sim of sorts and Frontier essentially are providing us the tools to develop our own story. No?

Serious comment. I'm not trying to be condescending. Have you tried, for example, just picking a group, faction. government or whatever, even outside of PP and making them your sworn enemy? It's sounds a bit cheesey I know but, stick with me a moment longer. Try it, pick an enemy and got after them, while trying to preserve your own life and see what happens. No need for a story or a mission to direct the confrontation and consequences, you can choose to do it yourself. Trust me, the game will get interesting real quick.

Unfortunately for many players (myself included) that requires more "imagination" than they're prepared to put into it, or it might never even occur to them in the first place. There needs to be some *in-game* reason for choosing to pick one side over the other. Hopefully the 2.1 update will start to provide one.

Currently ED provides a stick, but no carrot, for behaving like you suggest. The stick is the per-minor-faction bounties (which last up to a week). But currently we aren't given any real carrot for siding with one minor-faction (you can become friendly/allied with them, but so what?).

 

[DHMeyer]

I think they don't allow that, for fear of it being abused. You can easily imagine it being used to circumvent account bans/restrictions, as well as circumvent in-game rules that are intended to discourage griefing & anti-social behaviour. It would also instantly create a "gold farming" market, which FDev would find a huge drain of the resources trying to combat (and if they don't combat it then it'd cause all sorts of problems).

They may fear all they want, but if they want the game to be multiplayer, they have to face that fear and find solutions.
There is nothing that can stop a player from having multiple accounts, even in games which do not allow players to have multiple accounts (ED doesn't seem to be concerned with that). I don't think it would even be a problem in ED as there are not many reasons why a player would have multiple accounts here. Not saying this can't happen, but I think it's not frequent and also I don't think this doesn't make that much sense.
As for account bans, are there any banned players in ED? What stops them from playing solo? What stops them from buying another copy of the game and starting from scratch (apart from the starting from scratch bit itself). Why would anyone do any gold farming in ED? There is a limit of what you can do with credits. The best ship you can get for only credits you are able to get within a month or two of gameplay, for others you need to build up ranking with Federation or Empire (and the imperial ones are not much to write home about anyway).

There is also nothing that can stop me right now from transferring cargo, so effectively credits, to another player (or to a different account if I had one). It just takes more time and is more annoying, but still possible. I'd rather have an option of opening a trade procedure with another player to exchange the goods and credits or sell them cartographic data. My guess is that it would be also easier for Frontier to track such transactions than to track players trading by dropping their cargo somewhere in space.
Even more important thing if we get to craft unique ship modules. Civilization is built on a foundation of exchange of goods and so are multiplayer communities.

But all depends on how important they want the multiplayer aspect of the game to be. Since it's not a single player game and since it needs the internet connection to work anyway, Frontier can as well just make it properly multiplayer. I'd say that formal organisations are less important, but being able to create informal and temporary connections between the players is an important thing to have.

 

[SentineI]

They may fear all they want, but if they want the game to be multiplayer, they have to face that fear and find solutions.

I think their solution is to not add it :-D since it's not really essential to how ED currently works as a "multiplayer" game.

There is nothing that can stop a player from having multiple accounts, even in games which do not allow players to have multiple accounts (ED doesn't seem to be concerned with that).

There's nothing wrong per-se with having multiple ED accounts... It just costs money (a new copy of the game).

I don't think it would even be a problem in ED as there are not many reasons why a player would have multiple accounts here. Not saying this can't happen, but I think it's not frequent and also I don't think this doesn't make that much sense.

Ye of little imagination

As for account bans, are there any banned players in ED? What stops them from playing solo?

Mostly FDev institute "shadow bans", initially for a few days or a week, but with increasingly long times if the player doesn't fix his ways. I'm sure there are permanent bans, but probably quite rare. "Solo" still needs you to be logged-in to your account, and connected via the internet.

What stops them from buying another copy of the game and starting from scratch (apart from the starting from scratch bit itself).

Nothing, apart from cost. That cost is a disincentive from doing so, and provides some profit to FDev...

edit: FDev can undoubtably ban people from buying from their store (using their credit card and/or address to identify people). I'm not sure what options Steam provides, but I'd be surprised if FDev have no options there.

Why would anyone do any gold farming in ED? There is a limit of what you can do with credits. The best ship you can get for only credits you are able to get within a month or two of gameplay

The same reason as any MMO: People with limited time, but not limited funds, are willing to shortcut the game's enforced grinding by spending money. There is a demand, which "gold farmers" are more than happy to meet, if the game allows it.

There is also nothing that can stop me right now from transferring cargo, so effectively credits, to another player (or to a different account if I had one). It just takes more time and is more annoying, but still possible.

But if it's so easy to transfer funds right now, why are you asking for another way to do it ;-)

In reality, most players AND most gold farmers aren't going to go to the trouble of transferring large amounts of credits, unless it can be easily automated (like with a single click).

I'd rather have an option of opening a trade procedure with another player to exchange the goods and credits or sell them cartographic data. My guess is that it would be also easier for Frontier to track such transactions than to track players trading by dropping their cargo somewhere in space.

The "brilliance" of the current system (from FDev's perspective) is that they DON'T need to track any goods/credit exchange at all, because it's too much of a hassle for most players/farmers. And thus they don't need to employ people specifically for finding & identifying gold farmers.

P.S. I'm not saying your desire for direct credit transfer isn't a valid one, just that (in FDev's eyes) it's cost far outweighs the benefits. If you want to see it happen, then you need to convince FDev that it'd (say) double their game sales (which I doubt it would). OR find a solution to the gold-farming problem:

It occurs to me that FDev could allow direct credit transfer, but require a payment of real-world money to do it. That payment would pay for someone to check & deal with gold farming, and also act as a disincentive to gold farmers. However, I still suspect that FDev would see it as more trouble than it's worth...

 

[DHMeyer]

The "brilliance" of the current system (from FDev's perspective) is that they DON'T need to track any goods/credit exchange at all, because it's too much of a hassle for most players/farmers. And thus they don't need to employ people specifically for finding & identifying gold farmers.

P.S. I'm not saying your desire for direct credit transfer isn't a valid one, just that (in FDev's eyes) it's cost far outweighs the benefits. If you want to see it happen, then you need to convince FDev that it'd (say) double their game sales (which I doubt it would). OR find a solution to the gold-farming problem:

It occurs to me that FDev could allow direct credit transfer, but require a payment of real-world money to do it. That payment would pay for someone to check & deal with gold farming, and also act as a disincentive to gold farmers. However, I still suspect that FDev would see it as more trouble than it's worth...

I think you are bringing fear of gold farming from some other game and a long time ago.
Once again, why somebody would hire a gold farmer? There is nothing you can do with the credits anyway. If your goal in game is to, say, have an Anaconda or Federal Corvette, you're basically done within a month or two. Well yes, you can have somebody else get you there. Or get you enough credits for all the ships with A class upgrades. Brilliant. And what next? There is still nothing more you can do with the credits. Even if you have all the ships with all the best modules and each ship in several specialised versions, you can't do anything else with the credits and you can't fly them all at once. So the problem of the game fairness would be solved in this place. If there was a problem with game fairness in the first place, which there wasn't. I'm not bothered at the least if some other player has all the best ships, I simply don't care. There is no way in which they can affect my gameplay, even if they have 20 Anacondas, each in a different colour and 10 federal corvettes, each with a different set of equipment. If they could have other players fly all that fleet, probably they could blockade a system or a few, but it still doesn't change the game and is easy for Frontier to notice and solve if they wish so.

If someone decided they want somebody else to play instead of them, for whatever reason, it's their choice. There is absolutely no way a single player or even a group can affect not only the galaxy, but even only the inhabited systems. FD is planning or thinking about player controlled stations and systems but even when this is a common thing in the galaxy, I seriously doubt these player groups will be able to control more than a small portion of the inhabited systems.

More, if I decide I don't have the time to play the game myself and want to get into playing it when I have all the best equipment, I can always give someone access to my account, check their progress once in a while and issue payments via Paypal or whatever form I decide suits me best. And again, FD can do nothing about it. Nor needs to do anything about it. Whereas the players having possibility to cooperate and trade between themselves can be a significant game changer when it comes to the multiplayer aspect of the game. This is the easiest way of creating content for ED without FD getting overly involved in the process and without creating any financial burden whatsoever for Frontier. It's not as costly and difficult to implement as you think. All the bits of code needed for introducing trades between the players are already there.

You say they would have to check if there is no gold farming happening in ED. I say even if there was, it would not be an issue for anyone. On top of that, they sold how many copies of the game? One million? Million and a half? How many of the buyers would be interested in having somebody else play instead of them? I don't think we are talking about significant percentage here...

 

[Hanni79]

But if it's so easy to transfer funds right now, why are you asking for another way to do it ;-)

In reality, most players AND most gold farmers aren't going to go to the trouble of transferring large amounts of credits, unless it can be easily automated (like with a single click).

The "brilliance" of the current system (from FDev's perspective) is that they DON'T need to track any goods/credit exchange at all, because it's too much of a hassle for most players/farmers. And thus they don't need to employ people specifically for finding & identifying gold farmers.

Prospector Limpets You just need a controller, few Limpets and they gather automatically what someone else has abandoned. Not completely one-click but pretty convenient.

 

[Cosmo]

IMHO, chat rooms could be made a lot more acceptable if they were "in-fiction", say by requiring you to be docked at a space station (or surface settlement), and then only being to other people in either (1) the same system, (2) the same minor-faction, or (3) possibly in the same major-faction (e.g. Federation) although as that would probably be too many people so limit it to (say) a 20 LY radius around you.

The problem all those suggestions is that they go beyond your immediate P2P network bubble/instance. So it would require the server to transfer (and possibly store) all messages. Given that FDev try to limit the load on their servers (due to no game subscription to pay for them), I wonder if this would be too costly for them to consider.

They have to make it work somehow. A clan or guild cannot function properly without a chatroom for all members. Eve Online, WoW, every major MMO has this feature.

It's odd that this MMO only has missions for solo-players, where's the multi-player missions?

Not sure what you mean by "crafting ships". If you mean designing the look of your ship, then that seems unlikely to happen.

I mean players could mine materials on planets and from asteroids, then convert that into an existing ship such as the FDL instead of buying premade.

Crafting of outposts, and even more personally claiming space territory, goes fundamentally against the design & fiction of ED,

I disagree, they said the sky is the limit in some live Twitch streams of the past and a recent poll has majority support for clans / guilds.

which is that you are an insignificant CMDR among a population of trillions.

A lot of players don't want to stay insignificant, we want to build our own clans / guilds, ships, claim solar systems etc.

It also wouldn't work very well with ED's P2P network instances. FDev may devise a solution eventually, but it probably won't work like it does in other MMO/sand-box games.

IF P2P can't support they will have to ditch it or improve it.

In general, ED is designed so that individual players can interact (with others they can see), but their persistent effects on the world are somewhat indirect,

That's old-school thinking, and those responsible horrendously hold-back the full potential of ED. Lots of players yearn for a real deep sandbox with solid multiplayer. Many players want to be significant, leaders, industrialists, tycoons, manage clans / guilds, craft ships, claim solar systems etc.

Whereas the players having possibility to cooperate and trade between themselves can be a significant game changer when it comes to the multiplayer aspect of the game. This is the easiest way of creating content for ED without FD getting overly involved in the process and without creating any financial burden whatsoever for Frontier. It's not as costly and difficult to implement as you think. All the bits of code needed for introducing trades between the players are already there.

This, allowing players to do more stuff by themselves, thereby deepening the sandbox, doesn't require much development.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Good News everyone, there are actual game designers at FD working at Elite. Don't worry.

 

[sorcer3r]

While I think Elite is technically awesome, ...

I thought the same for a long time. But if simple missions (like "escort cargo ship from A to B" ) are not possible in ED I am not sure if I was wrong about ED's technical quality.

 

[Player]

I would like to see something less technical and more fun.

 

[SentineI]

I think you are bringing fear of gold farming from some other game and a long time ago.
Once again, why somebody would hire a gold farmer? There is nothing you can do with the credits anyway. If your goal in game is to, say, have an Anaconda or Federal Corvette, you're basically done within a month or two.

I notice you decided to attack my assumption(s), rather than simply follow my advice of trying to prove to FDev that player-to-player trading is actually very important to many people. That suggest to me you don't think you can prove that...

I've been playing ED since premium beta (*), and still don't have nearly enough to afford an Anaconda. Most likely because I lost any interest in grinding, and the most fun/interesting stuff in ED rarely makes you any money, and I don't have huge amounts of time for gaming anyway. (* = but not very often since the middle of last year, excepting a longish stint in PowerPlay, which earns you almost nothing unless you are Rank 1 or maybe 2, and surface missions in Horizons, which earn you almost nothing.)

Which is merely a long way of saying, don't assume that your own gaming/ED experiences apply to everyone. Even if they apply to 90% of players, 10% is still a LOT of players.

Well yes, you can have somebody else get you there. Or get you enough credits for all the ships with A class upgrades. Brilliant. And what next? There is still nothing more you can do with the credits. Even if you have all the ships with all the best modules and each ship in several specialised versions, you can't do anything else with the credits and you can't fly them all at once.

I'm a bit baffled by your claims. I would say that (unlike most other MMOs) money is your primary measure of progress in ED. Many players set themselves the goal of affording an Anaconda, and grind like crazy until they can afford it, and then, having "won the game" (in their eyes), find they have nothing much else to do & so stop playing (and possibly moan on the forums that there's nothing to do, and perhaps that FDev should introduce new mechanics like, say, player-to-player trading).

More, if I decide I don't have the time to play the game myself and want to get into playing it when I have all the best equipment, I can always give someone access to my account

I am afraid that is against the terms & conditions (EULA) that you agreed to, specifically the "under your custody and control" part:
https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/

, check their progress once in a while and issue payments via Paypal or whatever form I decide suits me best. And again, FD can do nothing about it.

Ummmm, FDev would be well within their rights to terminate your account.

Whereas the players having possibility to cooperate and trade between themselves can be a significant game changer when it comes to the multiplayer aspect of the game. This is the easiest way of creating content for ED without FD getting overly involved in the process and without creating any financial burden whatsoever for Frontier. It's not as costly and difficult to implement as you think.

I'm not the one you have to convince however I suspect that your vision for ED is vastly different from both the game FDev pitched to Kickstarter, and their current vision. If you really want a player-controlled sandbox (or a first-person Eve Online), then sadly I think you will need to go elsewhere.

You say they would have to check if there is no gold farming happening in ED. I say even if there was, it would not be an issue for anyone.

I can imagine many possible problems from gold farming. It would cause a huge amount of server load (and so costs), which FDev won't want. It's also likely to degrade Online player experiences, since they're likely to run into gold-farming bots, rather than real players (unlike other MMOs ED has very limited player numbers per instance). And perhaps worst of all, it would threaten to unbalance the BGS, since automated bots will have far more effect than almost any real players (and if you have a swarm of them all doing the same thing in the same place...).

NOTE: It seems that we have such fundamentally different views, that I don't expect to reply further to you on this topic...