Why small ship maneuverability is useless Pt.1

[Ziljan]

It is often stated that large ships can counter small speed agility by flying in reverse. But why is this exactly? Surely small ships have higher agility and should be able to flank larger ships? The reality is that many large ships are faster than small ships, but that isn't real issue causing the disparity. With boost a small ship could theoretically eventually boost behind a large ship flying in reverse. However these ships are NOT just flying in a straight line! The larger ships can also turn while flying in reverse with FA off to counter any flanking maneuver.

This turns out to be a huge advantage, because the large ship that is backing up can make a small pitch adjustments and still be facing the smaller more agile ship. Meanwhile, the small ship that is trying to flank must make a very large arc to try to get on their larger opponent's tail. Even with Boost, the large ship can still turn quickly enough to counter any amount of distance covered by the small ship. If the small ship tries to go to the opposite side, then they must also cross a very large distance just to correct their course, and yet the large ship only needs to make a small correction. Adding insult to injury, not only are most small ships too slow to counter this, many of them are also less agile than larger ships!

Solutions? So it seems that the best way for a small ship to get behind a large would be for it make a straight line at the large ship and while rotating with FA off get behind them. Against NPCs this is actually a viable tactic as long as your large target doesn't have overwhelming firepower. But against players, a small ship passing that close to the business end of a large ship is going to be torn to shreds.

Solution 1: change the flight mechanics so that larger ships that are flying in reverse have a slightly longer turning time. Maybe 33% longer than if they are facing forward.

Solution 2: change boost so that it is more efficient for smaller ships. I.e. smaller ships boost a bit faster and for longer periods.

 

[Whiplash 1983]

Darn it! You just made me overfly my station again. Yeah. Seems to me the larger ships do have a bit of an advantage. But is that as it should be. Larger ships are a'sposed to play nice with smaller ships.

 

[Bacalao]

I wholeheartedly agree with you and would love to see small ships get a big speed boost, but following the discussion in the eagle thread it seems that people think buying a big ship means having the best of every aspect, speed, maneuverability, etc. In the end even a mediocre pilot in a big ship can kill an excellent pilot in a little ship, and the little ship will never kill the big ship unless the guy in the big one lets it happen, but that's not enough...or so it would seem. I like your thought of having small ships benefit from a stronger boost for longer, puts more dependence on pips in engines and flight skills over surviving by putting pips in systems. It adds variety and flavor, and flying an eagle or viper under boost would be thrilling, all good things. Excellent post.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Darn it! You just made me overfly my station again. Yeah. Seems to me the larger ships do have a bit of an advantage. But is that as it should be. Larger ships are a'sposed to play nice with smaller ships.

We're not talking about them having "an" advantage, they have EVERY advantage. Armor, weapons, utility, shields, speed, maneuverability, internals, etc. The small ships fly like the big ships, but have the misfortune of being small. Planetary combat might change this significantly, but as yet, that isn't even on the radar.

 

[who?]

Solution 3: have a bigger Delta between forward and rearward thrust / velocities, such that any ship 'strafing backwards' like this will be going much, much slower than the advancing craft and so the closing distance much quicker.

(Of course with any of the solutions above, once the fast ship has flown around the back of the larger one - if both ships can flip 180 degrees in similar times, then all that's happened is the two craft have swapped ends).

Solution 4: buff missile / torpedo accuracy & damage against large, slow-moving targets.

 

[Certacito]

Just playing devil's advocate here guys, why not avoid big ships while you are only flying a small ship until you can get a big ship and play them at their own game?

Signed...A happy Corvette owner

 

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Just playing devil's advocate here guys, why not avoid big ships while you are only flying a small ship until you can get a big ship and play them at their own game?

Signed...A happy Corvette owner

Because the players with the big ships are constantly interdicting my Imperial Courier, fire on sight and then complain on the forums when I 15sec out of combat?

 

[Sysmon]

Maybe giving small ships useful yaw? Make them actually agile?

S

 

[Whiplash 1983]

PvP action can even things a bit.

 

[EUS]

Please, no more nerfs.
The flight system in FD space is already unrealistic enough.
Basically you want a valid combat tactic negated.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Please, no more nerfs.
The flight system in FD space is already unrealistic enough.

Small ships need a buff - no need to nerf the big ships

And there could be a lot of new specialized weapons.

 

[EUS]

Small ships need a buff - no need to nerf the big ships

And there could be a lot of new specialized weapons.

There could be, but there's no reason that someone piloting ships from FdL and up in size and weaponry shouldn't absolutely lay waste to winders, eagles, and cobras.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

There could be, but there's no reason that someone piloting ships from FdL and up in size and weaponry shouldn't absolutely lay waste to winders, eagles, and cobras.

And there is no reason why small ships shouldn't be able to destroy big ships. (NO, that's not what I want)

It's in the end the game designers simply balance the ships the way they want. FD apparently wants the typical PvE gear progression.

 

[Whiplash 1983]

Small agile fighters don't carry much, but can outrun (escape) or chew up a big ship from behind. Large ships carry lots, are usually heavy with a load and often have no choice in a fight but to fly backwards in defense until they can jump. A rear facing targeting view or a way to ID a ship without having to turn to do it would change things up for either large or small ships.

 

[GJ51]

Because the players with the big ships are constantly interdicting my Imperial Courier, fire on sight and then complain on the forums when I 15sec out of combat?

Golly,

Which big ships can't you escape from in an iCourier???

Sounds like this one's headed back to the Gamma threads, "My Viper can't kill an Anaconda."

Been there done that

Get over it

Earn and fly a ship you like.

All my ships are perfectly balanced. I know - I took them out and set them at half-throttle, took my hands off the HOTAS and my feet off the rudder pedals and they all flew straight forever.

 

[Slack]

I think the balance is quite nice. Right now im using a Corvette in Haz and i rather attack an FAS/Clipper/Conda, and not just because they pay more, but they are actually easier to kill. Something like an Imperial courier/Cobra/Vulture can be very irritating, and can sometimes take longer to kill than just going for a much bigger/stronger/tougher ship. So I see a balance here, and generously geared towards small ships. In reality I can vaporize those little suckers in just a few seconds, but its very challenging getting my guns on them for more than a few seconds, especially when its a cmdr, I've had some get behind me and pretty much stay there for most of the fight, even when using the reverse maneuver/FA off, so skill does play a big role here. Turreted weapons are also nicely balanced in favor of small ships, not only can chaff be used to counter them, but they do so little damage that you might as well open the cargo hatch and throw sticks at the other ship. In other words, if you want to take down a good Vulture pilot, you will need more than just turrets, you will actually have to get this agile ship in your line of fire at some point, which isnt easy using a slow lumbering ship.

Also there are already plenty of people in Vultures/DB/Couriers taking on Conda/Corvette pilots and in many cases winning. So if you have enough skill, you can actually take on an opponent who technically has a huge advantage over you. This to me says good balance. And between two equally skilled pilots, lets be honest, a small assault craft, with small guns should get its ass kicked by a big assault craft, with big guns, just the way it goes.

 

[Bacalao]

Earn and fly a ship you like.

Here's the thing. I like the viper, there just isn't any point to it. Why suffer through those small hardpoints and that distributor when I can have the same speed, handling and more firepower and armor in an FdL or FAS? The ships are homogeneous, the same thing in bigger sizes, they need to be different. That can be done without making the small ships unkillable and the big ships easy prey (I always love how people pretend a viper could ever kill anything bigger unless the anything bigger let it.) making small ships boost faster than they do, even significantly faster will give them a whole new feel and niche in the game without upsetting any of the balance we currently have, there will just be a reason to keep piloting them.

 

[Whiplash 1983]

I am thinking about survival in an essentially defenseless hauler like the one I tried A non aggressive play style where I try a hand at trading and am destroyed instantly, while carrying no cargo by the first NPC Eagle that came along and just decided I was done flying my new hauler. I think there should be a strategy besides blind luck allowing a passive playing style in trading. If there is one for haulers I can not figure it out.

 

[Slack]

I like the viper, there just isn't any point to it. Why suffer through those small hardpoints and that distributor when I can have the same speed, handling and more firepower and armor in an FdL or FAS? .

Because it costs a fraction of the price to buy and outfit?

 

[Hooplah]

This is a second post versus Another One started 7+ hours earlier. Maybe the OP didn't like the way the first post was going as in not going to happen.

 

[GJ51]

Here's the thing. I like the viper, there just isn't any point to it. Why suffer through those small hardpoints and that distributor when I can have the same speed, handling and more firepower and armor in an FdL or FAS? The ships are homogeneous, the same thing in bigger sizes, they need to be different. That can be done without making the small ships unkillable and the big ships easy prey (I always love how people pretend a viper could ever kill anything bigger unless the anything bigger let it.) making small ships boost faster than they do, even significantly faster will give them a whole new feel and niche in the game without upsetting any of the balance we currently have, there will just be a reason to keep piloting them.

I own them all and I fly them all. Basically you have to approach the game differently in each ship, using it for different things in different ways. Start thinking more in terms of survival strategy rather than combat dominance. Against an appropriate opponent a DBS or an iCourier can be formidable. Alternately, both are good mission runners for ranking or earning permits. If your using a ship for a given purpose, you just have to learn it's strengths and weaknesses and find the boundaries.

In every ship there are decisions that have to be made at the right time in a given circumstance or you get the re-buy screen.

All the ships are fun. Well, maybe not the T-9 (but don't tell Driver777 I said so). You just have to find when and where they are fun for you. With 29 ships available, if you can't find one you like to fulfill a particular role, it's not FD's fault. The fact that you get all these threads "nerf this, buff that, no, nerf that, buff this" is a pretty good indication that there's more than enough variation for everybody. As a player, it just makes more sense having fun finding and learning how to fly what's available rather than trying to micro-manage FD ship design.

Keep at it if you must - I have another permit to earn tonight.