Why small ship maneuverability is useless Pt.1

Given that most of the larger ships tend to have to rely more on gimbal/turrets more than fixed (not excusively i know) but a small can escape / counter with chaff .... in RES i tend to find i can take down a dropship/python/clipper in my Anaconda quicker than i can take down a chaff heavy viper/courier .... slippery if they keep close and move around quickly .... i use gimbal rather than turret so YMMV
 
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I haven't played EvE in about 3 years, the curse was a viable killer when I last played, if it was nerfed it was because of whining such as this thread is full of, no, I will not also reveal my alts names in EvE, they stay secret for a reason, I stopped playing Eve because solo and small gang warfare became impossible due to blue doughnut and time dilation.

Curse was nerfed way before you stopped. It was actually nerf on nosferatu and energy neutralizers what did nerf the curse... And it was rigth nerf... Same as nano nerf.

Curse was mostly capable to be good adition in small gangs.... And yes pre nerf it was an pain for energy hunger ships... But once it's faced missiles platforms it was useless .

Most of those claimed kills are kills on npc setups battles ships ratting in belts fitted for specific damage like kinetic or heat... And far of capable for good PVP resistance.

So making such comparison is way off with ED since it's completely 2 diferent games
 
Agility is not useless.

Small ships are not useless.

Small ship agility is not useless.

However, as Ziljan and a fair few others are aware, flying backwards does present those pursuing such a ship with a choice:

- continue pursuit and present ourselves as a target
- disengage

As it stands, all craft are vulnerable to such a tactic, should the pilot insist on persuing the backwards-flying target. Since smaller ships are naturally less durable, presenting ourselves as a target whilst flying one is rarely a good idea. Persisting in following a backwards-flying target whilst in a small ship (or really, in any ship that cannot afford to take sustained attack from their target), assuming no stealth option, is the mark of a poor pilot, akin with an FPS player entering a room when they are aware that an enemy player is camping within.

Thankfully, we can often still choose to disengage and, as many have pointed out, an enemy can only fly backwards, away, from one target at a time.

However, there may be times when we might forget that we can choose to disengage, perhaps trhough blind stubborness or simple stupidity.

Of course, as some have alluded to, perhaps we should not have such a simple tactical option that has the potential to reduce PvP confrontations, already a rarity when encountered naturally (i.e outside of organised events or on-going campaigns) to a binary choice. I for one agree as neither choices are particuarlly interesting.

Still, much like camping in an FPS, a direct adjustment of the fligh mechanic is probably not the solution. Instead, as in FPS games, perhaps we would need to introduce some strategic penalty for doing so. In an FPS there is often an objective to be achieved, and camping a spot for an extended period of time results in one less player available to secure the objective, which could possibly lose the game round. Sadly, Elite lacks these larger structures to support such play, no flags to be captured in X minutes/before the red team, no points to hold - unless, of course, we introduced them. For example, if commodities were worth fighting for, munition or empowerment not quite so statics and cargo scooping not such a chore, we could force targets away from a key resource, collect said resource and then attack with an advantage, perhaps enough to compensate for our target's flying backwards manauver.

Or not. Maybe something as simple as having the targetting reticule going all wobbly bobbly the longer we fly in reverse. Or as folks have suggested, thrusters providing less speed when we fly in reverse. Not a fan of such methods myself.

Personally, I'd rather bring a friend. It's more cost effecient in terms of ship, while more costly in terms of pilots - but then again, larger ships in Elite simply provide more bang per pilot, which is relevant in a game system that features capped instancing and the logistics of moving around are a game unto themselves.
 
+1, I agree with the OP.

As discussed in this other thread, the top speed while reversing in FA off makes no sense. I would understand that you keep your momentum longer, but maintaining top speed makes no sense.
Just need to nerf the reverse speed, I don't see big thrusters at the front of ships, do you?

The problem is that they can dictate range, even when reversing, and force a face-tank outfitting fight rather than a dogfight.
FA-off reversing speed needs a nerf
 
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Sounds alright. But I'd like more realism for big ships, too. My C4 PA projectile is about as big as your eagle. I'd like for you to be instagibbed. Come to think of it, C3 weapons are nearly as big as the small ships... Their projectiles should be instagib too.
 
Just gonna quote answer from other thread.
Direct forward flight is indeed faster than reverse thrust. Fastest way to fly backwards is to boost, go FA-off and zero the throttle before rotating to face your pursuer. Your speed away from them will decay in FA-off down to the max forward speed you can achieve with your current # of engine pips.

As for reversing guaranteeing that the ship "with the strongest shields/weaponry will win" - no. Reversing is a technique to disengage not to press the fight. The pilot reversing away from you for more than a few seconds to open the range to one they consider more favorable to them has already admitted defeat, is breaking off the engagement and is not a threat. They are bringing their maximum weight of fire to bear in a defensive mode, which you can totally ignore unless your "fangs are hanging out" and you're dumb enough (or your ship is tanky enough) to charge down the throat of all that fire just to pop a target that's already bugging out. Let 'em go, just keep en eye on 'em. Sure they can can come back into the fight after a shield-recharging, weapon-cooling breathing space but unless you've been heavily engaged with their wingmates the whole time you'll have recovered some too and you made 'em run away once before didn't you?
 
Small agile fighters don't carry much, but can outrun (escape) or chew up a big ship from behind. Large ships carry lots, are usually heavy with a load and often have no choice in a fight but to fly backwards in defense until they can jump. A rear facing targeting view or a way to ID a ship without having to turn to do it would change things up for either large or small ships.

This - why do I have to turn into a ship to target it with my turreted weapon, it takes away one of the big advantages of turrets - you know firing all around you? I should be able to select a target and let the turrets fire any time they can bear. That's how REAL turrets work.
 
Simple FIX: don't go with an eagle or any other small ship against a bigger ship that go reverse, period, only an ***** will try and hope to win and after he got blown to pieces come here crying that his 20k cr ship is not fast enough. the small ships are fine like it is now.
 
for this to work they'd need to remodel the larger ships so they no longer function like the small ships, I think its a bit ludicrous for example that you can even use all fixed on a conda and fire like a javelin from the heavens at anything infront of you.

In your general space game larger ships generally sacrifice more and more maneuverability for turrets basically, they then have to play a completely different style involving keeping targets outside of deadzones etc.

As it is currently you fight the same in a python or a viper, a python just turns 30% slower in return for 200% firepower/shielding (fictional number warning), this is what makes flying backwards unstoppable against small ships, because you can have all 5 hardpoints shooting forwards.
 
What I would love to see is that all kind of acceleration from thrusters (main, lateral and vertical) would be slower due to mass effects (inertia) but please not top speed, no matter what direction. This would make no sense at all and moreover would be completely unnecessary. Limit on top speed is unnatural enough already and physically complete nonsense - but necessary.
Already works like this.
 
As a universal change that would be terrible but at the same time if someone kits out an anaconda with no turrets at all then a small ship behind it should be able to take it down.
The complaint here is that the flight model's artificial top speed prevents the small ship being able to do this. Once both ships are moving at top speed the better acceleration of the small ship counts for nothing.

As a pilot of both the larger ships and the smaller ones I would like to see more nuance than 'big ship > small ship'. I'd like my combat encounters to require a little more judgement than deciding which of us is bigger. Make the outfitting have a bit of a weigh in too.
If that were the case I'd fly the smaller ships more often - they are much more fun for me.

1. They are not going to change the flight model to have unlimited top speed.

2. You can not boost backwards. An Anaconda's top speed without boosting is a whopping 175 m/s. With boosting it can go as high as 245 m/s (for a few seconds). If you can't catch up to a ship moving at such speeds in a small combat ship then you need to learn to fly before engaging in combat.
 
This - why do I have to turn into a ship to target it with my turreted weapon, it takes away one of the big advantages of turrets - you know firing all around you? I should be able to select a target and let the turrets fire any time they can bear. That's how REAL turrets work.

It's how turrets in ED work too, unless you have them set to "forward only" fire mode where they act just like fixed weapons.

If your turrets are set to "target only" and you have a target selected, whether it's in front of you or not then one tap on the trigger for the turrets fire group releases your batteries to fire whenever they can bear until your target is destroyed or until you switch targets or fire groups.

If your turrets are in "fire at will" mode, then whether or not you have a target selected a single tap on the turret fire group trigger releases your batteries to engage any threat - any red scanner blip - upon which they can bear until you revoke that authority by changing the turret fire mode or switching fire groups.

So yes, what you want is exactly what you have.

Now, you DO still have to turn into a target that has not yet engaged you to scan it and identify it as wanted before you release your turrets to open fire, unless you want a bounty on you but that is nothing to do with whether or not your turrets CAN fire on them or not.
 
As the season progresses on, I think we'll find the 'flying in reverse' tactic for the huge ships less of an occurrence for the combat based commanders in one on one 'David vs Goliath' scenarios; we'll be getting Ship Launched Fighters.

So whether or not you can take on a Corvette in an Eagle if you were faster will be irrelevant. The Corvette's Fighter is going to be chasing you around and more than likely force you to flee regardless of how agile you are (you'll be effectively outnumbered). Unless the fighters FD develops are really lame, which would be a massive disappointment.
 
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1. They are not going to change the flight model to have unlimited top speed.

2. You can not boost backwards. An Anaconda's top speed without boosting is a whopping 175 m/s. With boosting it can go as high as 245 m/s (for a few seconds). If you can't catch up to a ship moving at such speeds in a small combat ship then you need to learn to fly before engaging in combat.

While you are 100% correct, for the sake of completeness....

1: they CAN'T remove the normal-space speed cap. It's as high as it can get right now without the sheer speed of our ships causing massive rubber-banding and lag issues to the point where real-time targeting and shooting would be next to impossible.

2: Correct but in fairness I should point out that my 'condas max forward speed with 4 pips to ENG is about 210, boosting to close to 280. Using reverse thrusters to fly backward I won't get much above 150 but with FA-off maintaining my normal max forward speed while pointing in any direction is possible so they are potentially chasing a target flying away from them at 210. It changes nothing about the sense of your argument, of course, only the raw numbers involved.

The bottom line to this entire thread, though, is this.

Every matchup between any two ships presents each pilot with an "optimum engagement range" where the geometry of the engagement favors his ship over the other. In general, in an engagement between a small ship and a larger one the small ship is favored by short ranges where their speed and agility will come more powerfully into play while the larger ship will necessarily prefer longer ranges where their greater standoff firepower becomes truly effective and even their relatively slow turn rate is sufficient to match the angles even a fast small ship can cover at extended ranges, effectively reducing if not totally negating the smaller ships speed and agility advantage.

Ultimately, if you let the other guy dictate the range of the engagement and keep it in HIS optimal ranges, maximizing his ships advantages and minimizing yours, then big ship, small ship red ship blue ship.. win or lose you're gonna take a beating.
 
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