Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

[excalibus]

I like to toss the word "fear" around sometimes too. Pretty sure the mods have waved their "be good" stick at me for it at some point or another.

No PvP player fears a PvE only mode. The problem, and this is a huge assumption on my part, is that a good chunk of the pvp tryhard types are nothing more than screaming teenagers who've grown tired of Call of Duty and have moved on to shooting space men for their kicks, especially since traders and non-pvp bounty hunters tend to cry some of the biggest, saltiest tears.

That being said, they suck at arguing against a PvE only mode.
I'm against it being implemented solely because it already exists in the private groups function. I think they need to expand on that function before making it irrelevant by adding something entirely new that serves basically the exact same purpose.

We need to stop asking for knee-jerk quick-clot reactions and push FDev to expand on the tools that were already given to us so that we may be able to actually use them to their fullest, rather than look at them as the bandaid that they are right now.

If groups were fully implemented with the group owner able to select a ruleset that is then enforced by game mechanics and the group administration was streamlined and there was an option to make a group public where it is showing in the group list when you select to play in a group I would totally agree with you that there would be no need for requesting a PVE multiplayer option on the login screen...

Until they have gotten that in place... there will always be people aksing for that option...

 

[Deadspin]

Until they have gotten that in place... there will always be people aksing for that option...

That's because people, in general (not anyone here specifically!), are stupid and will seek out the simplest of actions to pull that comforting blanket over their fears.

People can kill me? BAN THEM!
People can steal my cargo? BAN THEM!

I mean, the list goes on and it went on for months back in the early days right after release (Personally I would have liked to see the people screaming for bans quietly shadow-banned but I'm also just a troll on the most basic level).

I agree though on what should be implemented. Better group controls are a must-have for that mechanic and I even like the idea of having groups able to be public or private, almost like a matchmaking UI when you're kicking on the game, which is an idea I haven't seen presented before (not that I follow all of the ideas here very well). Until then, arguing about whether or not there should or shouldn't be a PvP Only or PvE Only mode is pointless and only serves to send the forum in circles with countless debates of the merits of one over the other.

 

[DarkWalker]

Eh.. "Arena PvP" and "Open world PvP" are two entirely different things though, no matter what FDev claims. We've got 62 pages of arguments against or for either you can read through in this thread alone if you need more clarification.

Though I don't think there is anyone actually asking for a PvP-only open world mode (AKA a mode without NPCs and without any and all PvE activities). I really don't think this would be what the PvPers want, or at least not without also managing to increase the player concentration enough for space to not feel empty when all the NPCs are removed.

And, for what matters, I actually like PvP-only games, including at least one open world one (Planetside 2). When the only thing to do is PvP, when everything PvE is removed, then you are guaranteed that everyone in the game is there to fight other players, which in turn allows me to attack others with abandon.

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That's because people, in general (not anyone here specifically!), are stupid and will seek out the simplest of actions to pull that comforting blanket over their fears.

Nope. I fear those about as much as I would fear squishing a horse apple under my foot. I just don't want to experience something as unpleasant as unwanted PvP in an activity that is supposedly done for fun.

 

[Deadspin]

I just don't want to experience something as unpleasant as unwanted PvP in an activity that is supposedly done for fun.

Hello Private Group and Solo mode user! That's what they exist for.

Don't want PvP? Don't play in open! Join Mobius! Create your own group! Have fun! Enjoy the game the way you want to play it! (Because the tools are there)

 

[Siobhan]

Don't want PvP? Don't play in open! Join Mobius! Create your own group! Have fun! Enjoy the game the way you want to play it! (Because the tools are there)

Of course, since said groups (well not solo but you know what I mean) are constantly being infiltrated by griefers¹ wanting an easy kill, then this solution doesn't work. It makes more sense to say that the PVPers should be the ones to go to a private group... since I doubt they'd mind if an easy target "infiltrated" them.

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1. I feel comfortable using the word griefers here since there would be no other reason for a PVP player to infiltrate a PVE group like they do.

 

[Deadspin]

Of course, since said groups (well not solo but you know what I mean) are constantly being infiltrated by griefers¹ wanting an easy kill, then this solution doesn't work. It makes more sense to say that the PVPers should be the ones to go to a private group... since I doubt they'd mind if an easy target "infiltrated" them.

--
1. I feel comfortable using the word griefers here since there would be no other reason for a PVP player to infiltrate a PVE group like they do.

Eh, the "griefers infiltrating X group, etc" argument is kind of lame in my opinion. Mobius has been around for what, a year now? I don't personally keep tabs but last I think I read about it the amount of "incidents" was still less than 10 (or was it around 15?) total. For an assumed active player base of around 12-13k players and a galaxy of 400 billion star systems.. The odds of actually being targeted by a griefer are incredibly low. While I know my experience is not the only experience when playing but of the 99% of the time I've spent in open since Gamma I've only been inconveniently interdicted by another player once. Mind you, I've only ever participated in one or two CGs and don't tend to fly off to wherever the latest hot spot is either.

I think we all ultimately agree on a few things though. Frontier needs to step up their game in relation to group control mechanic availability and rule sets.

 

[Pluvialis]

Hello Private Group and Solo mode user! That's what they exist for.

Don't want PvP? Don't play in open! Join Mobius! Create your own group! Have fun! Enjoy the game the way you want to play it! (Because the tools are there)

How many times have these instructions been issued in the various threads so far? And how many times have they been answered already? And how have you not seen it?

Mobius, as you must surely be aware, recently reached its maximum player limit. This while players in Open are complaining about people leaving that mode. This should tell you that merely parroting "go play in Mobius" is a less-than-logical reaction.

The fact that Mobius has a player limit is one of the reasons this discussion is happening: Private Group is not, in fact, the same thing as the proposed Open PVE mode.

Additionally, there is the question of whether FD should be leaving it to a player to provide a facility there's clearly considerable interest in.

Then, there's the inconsistency of your demands: go to Solo/Group, stay out of Open, and play the way you want! It may be that there are players who want to play what Open was originally supposed to be: a single, Open galaxy where player interactions happen and where PVP is rare and meaningful.

At the moment there is nowhere to play such a game.

 

[Deadspin]

what Open was originally supposed to be: a single, Open galaxy where player interactions happen and where PVP is rare and meaningful.

At the moment there is nowhere to play such a game.

At the same time we're still missing a huge chunk of the "features" that were talked about as well. Features that could draw players away from CGs/hot spots and work towards really making that rare PvP encounter meaningful in a way. I could call it growing pains but you and those like you will continue to complain about PvP no matter what. Mobius is full? I thought that there was just a break in the acceptance abilities due to timeout on userlist *shrug* Both are things I've read today. Which is it?

Either way it sounds like it's time to stand up Mobius 2.0!

On another note:

1) If you don't want any player interaction, you can have it your way with solo.
2) If you only want specific player interaction with an agreed upon (trust) set of rules, you set that up via Private Group and have it your way!
3) If you throw caution to the wind and aren't afraid of getting a few dents/dings and or insurance bills, you have it your way and go open!

How is this not playing it the way you want to play it again? I'm sorry.. You can play however you want in this game, in any mode, but there's only one mode where another player might have something to say about that and you're not forced to join it. Don't want player interaction without some sort of arbitrary rules? Stay in PG or Solo.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

Path of least resistance - Mobius.. they'll just say go to mobius if you want to be safe. They won't waste their time writing a single line of code for this.

The only drawback is that Mobius only has limited players.

 

[Roland2]

Eh, the "griefers infiltrating X group, etc" argument is kind of lame in my opinion. Mobius has been around for what, a year now? I don't personally keep tabs but last I think I read about it the amount of "incidents" was still less than 10 (or was it around 15?) total. For an assumed active player base of around 12-13k players and a galaxy of 400 billion star systems.. The odds of actually being targeted by a griefer are incredibly low. While I know my experience is not the only experience when playing but of the 99% of the time I've spent in open since Gamma I've only been inconveniently interdicted by another player once. Mind you, I've only ever participated in one or two CGs and don't tend to fly off to wherever the latest hot spot is either.

I think we all ultimately agree on a few things though. Frontier needs to step up their game in relation to group control mechanic availability and rule sets.

For me, one incident is too many, let alone 10 or 15. "Incredibly low" and zero are not the same number. For me to play in a mode other then Solo, the chances of direct PvP outside a CZ would have to be zero.

 

[willowfan]

Eh, the "griefers infiltrating X group, etc" argument is kind of lame in my opinion. Mobius has been around for what, a year now? I don't personally keep tabs but last I think I read about it the amount of "incidents" was still less than 10 (or was it around 15?) total. For an assumed active player base of around 12-13k players and a galaxy of 400 billion star systems.. The odds of actually being targeted by a griefer are incredibly low.

That's still 10 too many in a group set up specifically to avoid PvP.

 

[Marra Morgan]

It may be that there are players who want to play what Open was originally supposed to be: a single, Open galaxy where player interactions happen and where PVP is rare and meaningful.

At the moment there is nowhere to play such a game.

Huh?
Then what have I been playing for the last fourteen months?!

 

[Pluvialis]

Mobius is full? I thought that there was just a break in the acceptance abilities due to timeout on userlist *shrug* Both are things I've read today. Which is it?

I neither know nor particularly care. What I've heard is that Mobius reached a user cap. If that's not the case I'm not going to be particularly cut up: the point remains that Mobius is a sticky plaster (linked metaphors not intended).

Either way it sounds like it's time to stand up Mobius 2.0!

Possibly so!

How is this not playing it the way you want to play it again?

It is playing it precisely the way I want. I have no desire for player interaction under any circumstances, so I play Solo.

But what I want isn't the issue. If it were, ED would never have been developed as a multiplayer game in the first place, and it would have been an advancement on First Encounters in more than just graphics and sound.

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Huh?
Then what have I been playing for the last fourteen months?!

I would assume Elite Dangerous as seen from the perspective of someone who enjoys PVP.

Would I be right?

 

[Marra Morgan]

I would assume Elite Dangerous as seen from the perspective of someone who enjoys PVP.

Would I be right?

I accept PvP can happen, but I don't go looking for it.
For me, it's "rare and meaningful". That's what I enjoy.

 

[Pluvialis]

I accept PvP can happen, but I don't go looking for it.
For me, it's "rare and meaningful". That's what I enjoy.

But that's still your individual experience, from which you take a view that you apply generally. Others report different experiences but are often dismissed by PVP enthusiasts who can't accept that not everyone sees the game in their terms.

I don't have a particular problem with PVP encounters in principle. I just don't want any engagement with other players, at all, so I play Solo. For me, Elite games are single player and I believe ED could have been a far better game if it hadn't had to be forced into a vaguely MMO mould.

But that's me. I accept that others enjoy the challenge of facing off against other skilled PVP players, and so there should be an Open mode to accommodate those players. There should, ideally, be an offline version for people like me, but that won't happen. I see no reason - and have seen no good reasons presented in these many threads - to begrudge PVE-orientated players a mode that suits their preference.

So far the only objection seems to be "It'll take players out of full Open", though this is offered alongside repeated demands that those who don't like PVP should go play Solo - so the objection is moot.

 

[excalibus]

The fear of PVE multiplayer only players moving from open to a PVE Only mode if one was 'presented' at the login is a bit of a questionmark really as none of us really know for certain how many would switch over...

The main benefits, as I have pointed out numerous times, is that as it stands right now, currently for new players who want to play PVE multiplayer to get access to mobius, 2 things need to occur, firstly they need to know that such a group even exists and secondly they then need to learn how to apply and then wait for that application to process...

Having a PVE Multiplayer mode on the login screen would allow people wanting to play in that environment easy access to it.
Wether it be through a public group type of option or as its own mode would be something FDev can decide on...

Recently when there was the problem for people being able to be accepted into the Mobius group (due to the user list timing out) it highlighted the real need for a better system to be in place...

While that was happening the cries of 'go to mobius' were moot because we could not go to mobius...

I still firmly believe that there needs to be a valid PVE Multiplayer opton on the main login screen, not something that is tucked away under an unlisted system (private groups) where the person needs to know the name of the group and how to apply for membership...

PG's should be there for 'friends' and the other valid reasons for them to exist, they should not be there as a 'mode' that a mass number of people want to play in because that is their only choice for a potential PvP free multiplayer experience...

So far I really have seen no arguement that counters the benefits to the new players and exisiting players who do not know know about mobius and are either currently playing in open mixed mode but wish there was a PVP multiplayer option or they are playing is solo...

Meanwhile PVP player continue to complain about the lack of targets in open... Which IMHO is a bed some of the 'bad sort of PVP aka griefers/gankers' have made which all the PVP players end up suffering for...

 

[DarkWalker]

So far the only objection seems to be "It'll take players out of full Open", though this is offered alongside repeated demands that those who don't like PVP should go play Solo - so the objection is moot.

That is basically an attempt to keep the current status quo, where social interaction is only made available to the players that also open themselves for unwanted PvP. Or, in other words, an attempt to keep a parasidic way of playing alive by preventing other players from having the kind of experience they want and forcing them to instead be the content to those PvPers that demand easy targets.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
Recently when there was the problem for people being able to be accepted into the Mobius group (due to the user list timing out) it highlighted the real need for a better system to be in place...

While that was happening the cries of 'go to mobius' were moot because we could not go to mobius...

PG's should be there for 'friends' and the other valid reasons for them to exist, they should not be there as a 'mode' that a mass number of people want to play in because that is their only choice for a potential PvP free multiplayer experience...

The cries of 'go to Mobius', whether one can join or not are a diversion, partly due to the fact that PvP is still possible in Mobius, despite not being allowed. Anyway, I wonder how PvP oriented players would react if the game were PvE only and the only way to be able to PvP were to join a private group?

As you say, private groups are and should be available for those who want to interact with specific, known players. Having two Open modes, one PvP and one PvE would allow players to choose how they wished to play at login and preserve the whole concept of chance random encounters with other players (something the PvP advocates claim is such a key component of Open), simply removing the chance of being randomly attacked by another player in one of those modes.

 

[Deadspin]

But that's still your individual experience, from which you take a view that you apply generally. Others report different experiences but are often dismissed by PVP enthusiasts who can't accept that not everyone sees the game in their terms.

I could swap that there "PVP" out with "PVE" and it would still be an accurate statement. That is also why this argument will be eternal.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I could swap that there "PVP" out with "PVE" and it would still be an accurate statement. That is also why this argument will be eternal.

You could indeed.

However, a simpler consideration may, ultimately, need to be taken into account - PvP players *need* other players - PvE players don't necessarily need other players. Some PvP players don't enjoy shooting at other PvP players (as much) apparently - and that may be what is required if/when the less PvP inclined exercise their freedom of choice and eschew Open.