Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

[KaizoMK]

As you can see, Group mode with the button makes the game far easier than Solo mode and lacks the risks Open players put up with to have the option to wing with other players to help against AI. Thus... it has no tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are needed.

Pardon me, but I believe you're working on the assumption that if you're getting your warship faster than I'm getting mine, it's unfair. Is that correct?

 

[excalibus]

Twice the back end systems implies (to some degree) double the running costs which affects the bottom line / share holders.

Not going to happen.

Mode locking is more likely - pick a mode & stick with it (solo/group or open) but this feels like the Solo/Group/Open thread in a new form ;-)



(Finally, hating myself right now .. been lurking for months, but now starting to feel overcome by the forums and my headache returning ... *sigh*)

what are you talking about??? What 'twice' the backend systems??

There is no need for twice the back end systems... Implementing would be at the client side most likely and rulesets from the server side... possibly a little extra data sent on the initial loading screen for the selected mode to get the 'ruleset' to the client...

 

[Siobhan]

Ideally I want Open or Solo. Open is anything goes. Solo is... solo. And preferrably an offline Solo, too, for those who want to play on a submarine in the middle of the pacific ocean.

OpenPvE would be magic switch. Magic switch is bad. Tradeoffs are required.

I disagree, and likely we're never going to change. Seeing also that both of us have thousands who agree with them, we'd probably best accept that.

Still, it's not going to help ED if people leave in droves to solo and only a few PVPers are left in Open.

 

[Faded Glory]

Ideally I want Open or Solo. Open is anything goes. Solo is... solo. And preferrably an offline Solo, too, for those who want to play on a submarine in the middle of the pacific ocean.

OpenPvE would be magic switch. Magic switch is bad. Tradeoffs are required.

Is it really such a magic switch?

If players are in a wing in a PvE mode, they cannot harm you (or any other player) regardless of that other player's mode. How does that give them an advantage?

 

[Space Dandy]

Point taken, but if nothing is done and the current situation is left to continue, then PVE people are going to slowly migrate out, and even to solo or more tightly run private, as well as E's reputation being tarnished. It's a logical development. You don't make PVE players into PVP players by harassing them, you just drive people away.

I think this is the big issue...not tradeoffs or "fairnes". I think pvper know there are far far more pve players that have no interest in pvp and they don't want to be stuck alone in their own special little sandbox.

The irony.. they like think of themselves, some of them atleast, as better than pve players, like to call them carebears and other derogatory terms yet are afraid these people will leave them all alone with no one to play with....

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Its true, I play in Solo and nobody can shot at me to stop me doing whatever I'm doing. So can't I shot at anybody to stop him from doing what hes doing

 

[Robert Maynard]

If private group gets a magic invincibility button that makes them immune to other player fire, then the tradeoff should equally be open and solo modes are immune to those who use the magic button. It is only fair.

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

 

[excalibus]

Ideally I want Open or Solo. Open is anything goes. Solo is... solo. And preferrably an offline Solo, too, for those who want to play on a submarine in the middle of the pacific ocean.

OpenPvE would be magic switch. Magic switch is bad. Tradeoffs are required.

what magic switch? you say it as if it is fact... back it up with fact...

 

[Siobhan]

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

I fully approve of and endorse this product or service.

Um also, can we have SDC officially renamed to "Fluffy Pink Puppies Club"?

 

[excalibus]

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

and I think this is overall the best solution i have seen to the problem...

 

[Space Dandy]

I would prefer this method to be applied.

This is easy. So, very, East. So lets do it.

First: Private Groups. If they do not allow PVP, then they dont. Its THEIR group, THEIR rules; Respect those rules or get out. Permanently. That's all that ever need be said about that.

To be very clear: From this point below we are going to assume all parties involved in PVP are playing either in Open or a group that allows PVP. Now that's out of the way, lets proceed with the fix.

++++++++++++++++++++++

First: Mechanics and Terminology:

++++++++++++++++++++++

-Victim: The person BEING attacked

-Aggressor: The party (or wing) that fired the first shot.

-Allowed: PVP May take place without any fear of reprisal or punishment by in game mechanics

-Discouraged: Consequences exist for PVP under these circumstances.


This will become relevant below.


============================================

When is PVP ALLOWED versus DISCOURAGED by IN GAME mechanics:

============================================

PVP IS ALLOWED in ALL of the following circumstances. If ANY ONE of these circumstances are TRUE, PVP is Allowed without ANY further consent needed:

-Lawless/Anarchy Systems

-If Archon Delaine is the Controlling Power, and the Aggressor* is a member of Delaine's Power Play Faction, the Aggressor* suffers no penalty. This is true regardless of whether the person being attacked participates in Power Play. (Its pirate space; you knew that, and you went there anyway; deal with the consequences).

-All involved Parties are members of Power Play

-All parties are inside a Conflict Zone, fighting for opposing factions

-The party attacked has a bounty of AT LEAST (no LESS than $1000 Credits).



============================================================

If NONE of the above circumstances are true PVP is Discouraged by the following consequences:

============================================================

-The Aggressor is flagged as such, via a notice inside their cockpit.

-If the Victim wins the encounter, the Victim incurs no penalties

=========================

-If the Aggressor wins the Encounter:

=========================

-The Aggressor Pays the Insurance Cost for the Victim

-The Aggressor pays an "Inconveniencing Penalty" to the victim, based on their distance from the station where they respawn. The further from the station, the more they pay, up to $1 million credits.

-The Aggressor is awarded a bounty for Murder of NO LESS THAN $2 million credits. This bounty:

-Is active in ALL systems Controlled or Exploited by the faction that controls the system where the Murder took place.

-Is active in ALL systems ALLIED with the system where the murder took place

-Notice of this bounty spreads across systems at 1LY per minute, adding to the systems wherein the murderer is wanted (we do have FTL communication, remember)

-This bounty will NEVER spread to Anarchy systems

-The Aggressor CANNOT dock in ANY System wherein they have a Murder Bounty

-The Aggressor CANNOT change to or purchase another ship in ANY system wherein they have a Murder bounty

-The Aggressor's next buyback cost is increased by 25%

-The Aggressor's next ship purchase is increased in cost by 20% (additional up front insurance)

-The Aggressor has ALL reputation wiped to Zero with:

-The controller of the system where the murder took place

-That system's allies

-Any and all Navies they may have earned rep with


++++++++++

SPECIAL NOTE:

++++++++++

There are NO penalties assessed unless the Aggressor DESTROYS the Victim's ship. Destroying their Thrusters or FSD and leaving them stranded will net you a STEEP bounty, however, it does NOT make you a murderer. This is intended to allow for legit piracy. This means that, if the Victim SELF DESTRUCTS, the Aggressor DOES NOT face the harsh Murder penalties detailed above - only a normal bounty for attacking in the first place, in Lawful systems only.



===================================================

This probably seems overly harsh. Allow me to explain my careful reasoning here:

===================================================

This is NOT EVE Online. Destroyed ships do not drop loot. They do not reward their killers in any way. Ergo, killing "for lulz" in this universe is literally role playing as a Psychotic murderer.

Elite was built to be an immersion-oriented simulation of life in space. Dangerous, hostile space sure. But the Danger of the Elite universe was focused on the danger of LOSS. Loss of cargo to pirates. Loss of your ship by crashing during a jump, while in a RES or, yes, by Pirate encounters gone awry.

Griefers represent none of those things. Griefers are not interested in piracy. They are not interested in reasonable encounters. Piracy I support and dont mind; notice all of the above penalties are incurred ONLY in the event that the Victim's ship is DESTROYED by the Aggressor; none of the harsh Murder penalties automatically occur on ATTACK. Piracy is largely unaffected by these changes, so long as it is legit piracy with a focus on obtaining booty and not killing the target.

In a galaxy such as Elite, where killing for kicks would represent truly psychotic behavior, the psychopath would see themselves ostracized from society. Relegated to Anarchy systems and perhaps the occasional pirate backwater system with lax security. Any incursion into Lawful systems would see the Psychopath pilot constantly hounded and treated as suspicious or worse yet, completely unwanted.

It is high time the Universe of Elite began treating Psychotics as they deserve. You want to pirate? Fine; use the right loadouts; negotiate with Commanders you interdict, or leave them stranded without an FSD or Thrusters. Focus on preserving the loot as opposed to killing the Commander.

You want to be a Psycho? Fine, go live like one.

======================================

Special Note - Unsanctioned PVP in PVE Only Private Groups

======================================

Violating the rules of a Private Group should result in a ban from every being allowed to play in another one. The offending Account - NOT the Commander Name; the ENTIRE ACCOUNT - should be banned from EVER joining any other Private Group. It does not MATTER whether you LIKE the rules of the group. The group is NOT yours, dont play there.

 

[Viking84]

I was expecting something simpler like:

Spoiler

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

This would be brilliant. It would not break immersion, you could still be killed, or kill someone, but griefing repeatedly would be prevented to a large degree Repped!

 

[Roybe]

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

The problem with #3, someone could sit outside a station and ram-kill people and do it ad infinitum. There would be no instance change involved in that. Although there is a lot going for the ideas, I still just see people able to grief someone, albeit in a smaller way....the griefing at this point would be in lost time.

I see where it definitely is an improvement on what we currently have...but it comes up short of the idea of a PvE only mode/grief free mode. It might be the best compromise out there currently!

 

[lenna]

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

WRT points duration, probably a minimum of 1 month with the chance of an appeal. Suspension duration should probably corroborate with the time for points to completely fade off (maybe the points duration should take longer to expire the higher the number of points there are. Repeat offenders could also gain more points for subsequent offences. The points could also be account bound as opposed to character bound too.

 

[excalibus]

The problem with #3, someone could sit outside a station and ram-kill people and do it ad infinitum. There would be no instance change involved in that. Although there is a lot going for the ideas, I still just see people able to grief someone, albeit in a smaller way....the griefing at this point would be in lost time.

I see where it definitely is an improvement on what we currently have...but it comes up short of the idea of a PvE only mode/grief free mode. It might be the best compromise out there currently!

i think point 5 would solve the repeated rammer

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Pardon me, but I believe you're working on the assumption that if you're getting your warship faster than I'm getting mine, it's unfair. Is that correct?

I don't play this game for warships or credits. I play it for fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The problem with #3, someone could sit outside a station and ram-kill people and do it ad infinitum. There would be no instance change involved in that. Although there is a lot going for the ideas, I still just see people able to grief someone, albeit in a smaller way....the griefing at this point would be in lost time.

I see where it definitely is an improvement on what we currently have...but it comes up short of the idea of a PvE only mode/grief free mode. It might be the best compromise out there currently!

As excalibus pointed out, #3 would be dealt with by #5. In #5 both parties would get points - and maybe, if there was a destruction then the destroyed party would be reimbursed (or a reduced rebuy cost maybe). Once the points limit is reached, in the case of ramming nearby a station, the station could deal with the player who had gone over their points limit. Elsewhere, security vessels could deal with the "problem" player. So, either the player would be destroyed, log out or jump out - each would cause the player to "change instance" - meaning that they would be suspended from Open-PvE.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I would prefer this method to be applied.

That could be applied to Open in any case - the proposal I made was for an Open-PvE mode (without a magical no damage from players shield).

 

[Noob]

I was expecting something simpler like...

Dear Mr Maynard,

I sincerely hope those ideas of yours are not only yours - that you had a chat with the Devs or something, because...

ALL OF THIS ROCK!

Rock big time! Sensible solution with much thought behind. This would bring so much to the game, enormous positive energy.

I, for one, would play only that mode. And judging by the general feel of the Forum, I'm faaar from being the only one.

 

[[VR]tailgunner30uk]

I was expecting something simpler like:

1) Auto-kick players who try to interdict other players - when they drop to normal space they are in Open rather than Open-PvE.
2) Full reimbursement for any player destroyed by another player (by the Pilots' Federation).
3) Players who destroy other players are kicked to Open on the next instance change.
4) Players who fire on other players get "points" added to their Pilot's Licence - reach the threshold and get suspended from Open-PvE.
5) Licence points for being involved in collisions, consequences as 4).

1) and 2) result in a suspension. Suspension duration would increase per offence - by account, not commander.

The interdiction one would be relatively easy - an instance change is an instance change. Some instances are Solo, some Private Group, some Open - some would be Open-PvE. The offender would just be put in an Open instance - alone. The player that they tried to interdict would probably just see "interdiction won" as the interdictor got kicked.

Similarly the kick to Open on instance change from normal space.

Licence points would take a bit more work.

Points would / could / should have a time limit (like the 3 year duration on UK driving licences for "normal" offences). Not 3 years, of course. Something sensible - as with the points limit to a suspension.

No magic invulnerability shield. However no financial penalties for the target of a PvP destruction in the PvE group.

I agree with this, there is only one thing I would suggest as a change. Rather than push the player to Open, effectively no punishment, push them to Solo and lock them there until their infraction is spent.