Open letter to Frontier

[Bomba Luigi]

They can't legally enforce private group rules, as those could literally be illegal and would get FD in lots of trouble, so that's not going to happen and expecting it to is not being sensible at all. NO company does that with their games, private groups in Elite are the same as guilds, units, teams in other games, and their private rules are NOT enforced by the developers, ever, for that reason.

There is no PvP/PvE flag, the game actively allows for and even encourages PvP when playing with others, Open or Private Group, doesn't matter, it's part of the core game. Bounties, CZ's, Power Play, all include PvP in them, and even Mobius' group isn't a PvE only group, it has PvP allowed with consent, except in CZs, where entering one GIVES consent implicitly. That's a big misconception, Mobius is NOT a PvE only group, people ASSUME that but it's not true.

FD doesn't offer a purely PvE option for multiplayer, it was never promised or offered, so why people demand it is beyond me. You want a purely PvE multiplayer online game, they DO exist, you should go play one of those, because that was never the premise of Elite: Dangerous multiplayer. You want pure PvE, FD has given an option, Solo, the same option promised in the KS from day 1, and the only option promised to be purely PvE from day 1.

Mobius' group problem lies in the fact that there is no vetting of the applicants, that's not victim blaming, that's a simple fact. This wasn't the first or even 10th time this has happened after all, and you can't just JOIN the group, you must apply and be accepted by the group's owner. First time or two it happened, ok, stuff happens, no big deal, let it slide, but...hey...man..can you start vetting the people maybe? 10th time it happens, dude, seriously, are you kidding me? You are STILL blindly letting in anyone who requests to join even though it's KNOWN that groups are trying to get in just to PK the members? There's an actual legal term for that, criminally negligent, when you KNOW something bad will result from your actions but you continue to do them anyway. Seems to me that I've heard a lot of people in the EU going off about how the various governments SHOULD have stopped any of the terrorists from getting into their countries since they KNEW they were trying to, and in many cases, KNEW they were there and did nothing about them in the first place. The acts aren't the same, not even remotely close, but the actual ethics and legal standing are exactly the same. Mobius knows this is a problem, he's not done anything to keep it from reoccurring repeatedly now.

Want to be upset with someone, that's the proper target, but no...people want to blame FD because...well...because!

I don't really know whats legal and illegal, but considering FD does already Shadowban people I assume its legal.

No, I do not want a PvE Multiplayer I'm happy with solo, but I get where people coming from who want it and who would like to have it. And yes thats not what ED offers and people have to accept that playing Multiplayer in ED means giving an okay to be a target for all sorts of PvP including griefing in every form possible - as long as it does not involve cheating/hacking from the attacker.
But that is how it is does not mean one needs to be happy with it, complains are always valid and suggestion and asking for certain thing is valid too if it gets heard or not from the Devs.

Yes, at it is its Mobius fault. FD also does not give him any proper admin tools to control member tough. Thats why an offical open PvE would be a better solution, since no player all alone on his own has chance to actually properly manage a group of this size, mistakes are bound to happen.
Better solution under condiction we want a PvE mode of course, yes I know FD does not want it etc etc.

And no I'm not upset, but I do think its maybe not the best for the Game in the longrun if nothing is done. I could be wrong of course, but you never know that in advance.

 

[Kristov]

The UK Companies Act 2006 governs private groups? Tell me more. What section?

I'm not British, didn't ever study British law too deeply, not my thing since, well I'm not British. But if you can find a company that does enforce the rules of private groups within their games, please, do list them here. My time in the industry, no one would touch that legal mess for anything. You know why EULAs and ToS are worded as they are, legal niceties aren't nice at all.

 

[Yaffle]

I don't really know whats legal and illegal, .

You are not alone there. The lack of lawyers on the forum is very telling.

Even though I did incite it, let's stay away from armchair lawyering and stick to the topic please folks.

 

[Kristov]

I don't really know whats legal and illegal, but considering FD does already Shadowban people I assume its legal.

No, I do not want a PvE Multiplayer I'm happy with solo, but I get where people coming from who want it and who would like to have it. And yes thats not what ED offers and people have to accept that playing Multiplayer in ED means giving an okay to be a target for all sorts of PvP including griefing in every form possible - as long as it does not involve cheating/hacking from the attacker.
But that is how it is does not mean one needs to be happy with it, complains are always valid and suggestion and asking for certain thing is valid too if it gets heard or not from the Devs.

Yes, at it is its Mobius fault. FD also does not give him any proper admin tools to control member tough. Thats why an offical open PvE would be a better solution, since no player all alone on his own has chance to actually properly manage a group of this size, mistakes are bound to happen.
Better solution under condiction we want a PvE mode of course, yes I know FD does not want it etc etc.

And no I'm not upset, but I do think its maybe not the best for the Game in the longrun if nothing is done. I could be wrong of course, but you never know that in advance.

Do they shadowban anyone? I've never seen anyone actually say they were shadowbanned to be honest, has anyone?

And people, naturally, have the right to complain all they want, that doesn't mean they are correct or that FD has any need to listen to them. Elite: Dangerous was/is and continues to be marketed as an online multiplayer game where PvP is possible at any time without restrictions. They did not and are not offering an online multiplayer game where there is no PvP. Complaining that there is no option to not have PvP in the multiplayer part of the game is rather silly in this case. If you buy a Volkswagen Beetle and then start complaining that the Beetle you have isn't the offroad truck you wanted from Ford, do you really think Volkswagon has ANY obligation whatsoever to listen to you, much less cater to your demands? If you say yes, well, end of discussion, unreasonable people are exactly that and I've got better things to do, like watch paint dry.

If you see why it's unreasonable, then you understand don't you and there's not much point in carrying on the discussion either, except to wonder why people could be so silly, which we aren't really supposed to do here.

 

[Steve50]

Well I play in Mobius all the time, in fact its the only place I ever play these days, however if a Commander attacks me, the first thing I'll do is combat log and if they or Frontier don't like that its just tough. I do not do combat and I do not go into combat zones. one shot against my hull and I pull the plug, if that's against the rules I really don't give a damn. I play for fun and enjoyment, not to be some idiot's cannon fodder.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Do they shadowban anyone? I've never seen anyone actually say they were shadowbanned to be honest, has anyone?

And people, naturally, have the right to complain all they want, that doesn't mean they are correct or that FD has any need to listen to them. Elite: Dangerous was/is and continues to be marketed as an online multiplayer game where PvP is possible at any time without restrictions. They did not and are not offering an online multiplayer game where there is no PvP. Complaining that there is no option to not have PvP in the multiplayer part of the game is rather silly in this case. If you buy a Volkswagen Beetle and then start complaining that the Beetle you have isn't the offroad truck you wanted from Ford, do you really think Volkswagon has ANY obligation whatsoever to listen to you, much less cater to your demands? If you say yes, well, end of discussion, unreasonable people are exactly that and I've got better things to do, like watch paint dry.

If you see why it's unreasonable, then you understand don't you and there's not much point in carrying on the discussion either, except to wonder why people could be so silly, which we aren't really supposed to do here.

They say they shadowban people and have all the tools to do it, I asume they do. Why should they lie in that regard?

I wouldn't say its unreasonable to ask for a non PvP Multiplayer option, its unreasonable to expect it here and now and already in the Game - but as something on a wishlist what people would like FD to do its alright if you aks me. Thats at least where I put it and I will continue to argue for it if that makes me silly or not. To be honest silly fits me quite well

 

[Commanderhumpster]

Well I play in Mobius all the time, in fact its the only place I ever play these days, however if a Commander attacks me, the first thing I'll do is combat log and if they or Frontier don't like that its just tough. I do not do combat and I do not go into combat zones. one shot against my hull and I pull the plug, if that's against the rules I really don't give a damn. I play for fun and enjoyment, not to be some idiot's cannon fodder.

Well said Steve, maybe FD forget that more than likely the people that funded this game were the original 1984 players for the most part. A little respect to those backers and players would not go amiss.

/

 

[Cowboy Bats]

You are not alone there. The lack of lawyers on the forum is very telling.

Even though I did incite it, let's stay away from armchair lawyering and stick to the topic please folks.

Let's say hypothetically, that someone in the discussion actually had a JD, but may or may not practice law, would the above remonstrance still apply?

 

[Yaffle]

Yes, best we just leave it.

The problem with the internet is there's no way to verify people's claimed certifications. I mean, some guy promised me $100 million that he'd somehow gotten frozen in a bank account in Lagos last week. The other problem is that most jurisdictions have different ways of viewing similar legal matters, so it just confuses the issue.

Unless you have coca-cola with the JD, then, really stay away from it.

 

[clavain]

I would suggest you start with unwritten contract law and criminal harassment law both UK. I would love to sit in on the discussion too! Also joint enterprise under criminal law even though it has just been reviewed.

In this instance i would suggest SDC are criminally harassing mobeus players (open is fair game) but because Mobeus players have entered into an agreement of "PvE" breaches of that with circumnavigation of the true motives of players and the threats of continuing to harass on theses "official" forums would constitute the harassment through digital medium section of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 - cause to distress, unwanted communications, etc. harassment can be of a group too. One could also argue that FDev has some liability/responsibility to its paying customers to prevent harassment, yet they have promoted it, (again fair game in open) but private groups which is a facility provided by FDev should be protected to some degree, and FDev needs to take their responsibility seriously in this regard- better management tools would be a start. The popularity of the private PvE option needs considering and FDev's obligation both legally, and morally to them.


ok now in a RP sense - Elite is a bit like the wild west. But we can't kill these guys because they respawn. So the crime and punishment system needs to be VASTLY improved to deal with simulated acts of TERROR. We need a commitment from FDev to take steps appropriate to deal with it sooner rather than later (and not one of MB's Soontm jobs either - SOON as in monday or tuesday.)

I...I... the physical trauma and mental anguish I have suffered, it's unbearable. Just unbearable. I...I... sense a class action suit, yes, that would cure me of it!

Edit: Although I think Lab 69 might have had something to do with that too, not sure, not sure...

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Unless you have coca-cola with the JD, then, really stay away from it.

Oh sure, just ruin the punchline. ppphhhht. Sorry for the aside, needed the levity.

 

[Spookyy]

When you give people the freedom to full on PK'ing PVE players, it always goes to heck with the coummunity.

 

[excalibus]

i saw this, laughed and had to comment. You obviously don't understand how things work in America in regards to video games.
<snip>

It was meant tongue in cheek, hence the 'LOL' at the end of the sentence... I know, I know, tongue in cheeck and text forums messages do not go hand in hand most of the time...

 

[dxm55]

I would suggest you start with unwritten contract law and criminal harassment law both UK. I would love to sit in on the discussion too! Also joint enterprise under criminal law even though it has just been reviewed.

In this instance i would suggest SDC are criminally harassing mobeus players (open is fair game) but because Mobeus players have entered into an agreement of "PvE" breaches of that with circumnavigation of the true motives of players and the threats of continuing to harass on theses "official" forums would constitute the harassment through digital medium section of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 - cause to distress, unwanted communications, etc. harassment can be of a group too. One could also argue that FDev has some liability/responsibility to its paying customers to prevent harassment, yet they have promoted it, (again fair game in open) but private groups which is a facility provided by FDev should be protected to some degree, and FDev needs to take their responsibility seriously in this regard- better management tools would be a start. The popularity of the private PvE option needs considering and FDev's obligation both legally, and morally to them.


ok now in a RP sense - Elite is a bit like the wild west. But we can't kill these guys because they respawn. So the crime and punishment system needs to be VASTLY improved to deal with simulated acts of TERROR. We need a commitment from FDev to take steps appropriate to deal with it sooner rather than later (and not one of MB's Soontm jobs either - SOON as in monday or tuesday.)

Hilarious overreaction over something that happened to other players (obviously not you), and even when Mobius himself have said that the matter is closed.
Gankers sneaked in, Gankers killed, Gankers got caught and banned. Matter closed. It may happen again in future, and if it does, the perps will be banned from the group again.

Since the game rules says that player kills are allowed in the game, nothing can be done from FD's end. Mobius' rules apply only to that private group. And the sentence has been meted out.

Case closed. Let's not play pretend 'Law and Order' shall we?

 

[gapper4]

After reading the thread, or more specifically ZacAntonaci's official response on reddit about last nights invasion of Mobius by the SDC, a group that was recently featured by Frontier, I'm done. Unfortunately, I can't withhold money from Frontier, as I've paid everything up front. However, there will be no future support unless these problems are addressed. The community has asked for a dedicated PVE mode, only to fall on deaf ears. Well, this is why it's desperately needed, and not a limp-wristed Jimmy Carteresque reply that's it's "unfortunate to see players taking pride in this experience." Really Frontier? A group you feature invades a private PVE group with the admitted purpose of griefing, gloats about it and taunts said PVE members about their lack of combat acumen, and your response is a weak-kneed "it's unfortunate" dismissal? Disgusting.

I'm in Mobius and I frankly welcome the griefers. While I personally abide by the rules, it's good to have a little bit of tension when flying around. NPCs are no match for anything above a Asp flown by a half-decent pilot. These guys will get kicked out by Mobius soon enough anyway. Think of them as catfish for our soft carebear hides

 

[gapper4]

By the way, am I the only one expecting a huge ragestorm coming from Mobius when the new AI hits? I get the impression that the average Mobius player might be more succeptible to 'npc-griefing' than Open players, as players in Open have to be more alert in general. Right now the anger of Mobius players is at PvP cmdrs but thats only because the AI doesnt pose much of a threat. Once AI learns to boost properly and 'submit and boost' isn't a fix-all for every pve situation things might get ugly over there, and they may have to learn the basics every Open cmdr already has to know. Interesting question: once AI becomes (close to) as dangerous as human players, how many of the Mobius guys who do not ragequit will chose to stay in Mobius? After all, most of the 'griefer-anxiety' is greatly mitigated by some basic skills, and once you've learned them Open isnt nearly as scary as some make it out to be...

I think that you may be underestimating Mobius players. There are many reasons why people play in Mobius, safety being only one of them. I have only limited time and can't really afford to lose money and/or time to random griefers. When I'm more financially secure, I'll go Open more often than not. In any case, I think this so-called invasion is a tempest in a teacup. Frankly, I'm happy there was some excitement in Mobius. NPCs are, for now at least, not challenging at all. A few random griefers adds an iota of tension.

 

[Huros]

Hilarious overreaction over something that happened to other players (obviously not you), and even when Mobius himself have said that the matter is closed.
Gankers sneaked in, Gankers killed, Gankers got caught and banned. Matter closed. It may happen again in future, and if it does, the perps will be banned from the group again.

Since the game rules says that player kills are allowed in the game, nothing can be done from FD's end. Mobius' rules apply only to that private group. And the sentence has been meted out.

Case closed. Let's not play pretend 'Law and Order' shall we?

Why not play let's pretend "law and order"?
We "pretend" to fly around space in 3302....why can we not simulate proper law and order system as well?

Principals clearly are low on your priorities.

Maybe I am part RP part RL principals in my post but having a more sensible criminal justice system in game would make it much more emmersive, and force us all to think a bit more. Never a bad thing.

 

[dxm55]

Why not play let's pretend "law and order"?
We "pretend" to fly around space in 3302....why can we not simulate proper law and order system as well?

Principals clearly are low on your priorities.

Maybe I am part RP part RL principals in my post but having a more sensible criminal justice system in game would make it much more emmersive, and force us all to think a bit more. Never a bad thing.

Apparently you misread me. You weren't just playing law and order in the game. Law and order (aka crime and punishment) in this game will presumably get an upgrade in the future. I'm not against simulated law and order in game.


But let's not extend into RL law stuff about the EULA and harrassment hogwash. FD has repeatedly stated that PKing is a part of the game. And the only rules that were breached by the Dogs were Mobius' own group rules, which many have pointed out, has been enforced via a ban. Even Mobius himself has closed the case on this unfortunate incident.

Which leaves all of the (actually unaffected) players up in arms and QQ'ing about what again exactly?

 

[OldManShiz]

Wow, as an Xbox One ED player I'm amazed how worked up people have got over this. We don't have even the option of private groups. Open or Solo are the only options. Threatening legal feels like perhaps a break from the game is needed to help with perspective. As someone new to the game who only started in January, I've managed to 'survive' the griefers (never encountered one) in open. If they did get me, the rebuy is so cheap on starter ships it's not really worth there time. Personally, I think the Mobius players should try and wipe out the SDC base via BGS manipulation. If only 1000 of you joined together completing rival faction BB missions and whatnot you could deal a blow to them. Anyway, I'm contributing to the 47 pages on this topic and continuing the outrage so no more from me other than to say it is only a game (a good game), but still a game.

 

[capt_sparks]

Wow, as an Xbox One ED player I'm amazed how worked up people have got over this. We don't have even the option of private groups. Open or Solo are the only options. Threatening legal feels like perhaps a break from the game is needed to help with perspective. As someone new to the game who only started in January, I've managed to 'survive' the griefers (never encountered one) in open. If they did get me, the rebuy is so cheap on starter ships it's not really worth there time. Personally, I think the Mobius players should try and wipe out the SDC base via BGS manipulation. If only 1000 of you joined together completing rival faction BB missions and whatnot you could deal a blow to them. Anyway, I'm contributing to the 47 pages on this topic and continuing the outrage so no more from me other than to say it is only a game (a good game), but still a game.

Exactly. It's just a game. Don't play too seriously.