Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

[Defector]

As for driving analogy, last time I was going through France, we took a longer and less travelled route, especially to visit some points of interest. So your analogy could be valid if the purpose of the journey is to get from point A to point B in the shortest possible time. Which is not always the case.
Lets stick to this analogy though. If the point A in Elite is the Noobwinder and point B is Federal Corvette or Anaconda, then there are really no shortcuts or no "quick and easy" way of getting to point B, whatever mode you play in. You still need the credits, whether you play in Open or in private group or in Solo. In case of Federal Corvette (or Imperial Cutter if that's your point B), you still need to get to a certain rank with one of the factions. Playing in Open doesn't make anything more difficult. Even people who play Open writing in this thread accentuate that interaction with other players is rare in Open, hostile interaction seldom happens and when it happens it's very easy to avoid.
It stands to reason to draw a conclusion, that since Open is not dangerous and PVP can be avoided, then there is no additional challenge to be found by playing versus environment in the current Open mode. So the difference is that in Open a PVE player can find more annoyance (hardly an appealing gameplay element) and less like minded people interested in doing things similar to what you do.
It makes a perfect sense to me to stick to the modes where I can find likeminded players and suggest Frontier to create an Open PVE mode, so there can be even more interaction between the PVE players. Whether they listen to this suggestion or not, is completely up to them.



Clipper is hardly the best combat ship. Nice ship, for sure, but it has many disadvantages, especially when it comes to combat. One thing you could probably learn from this experience is that sometimes less expensive ships, but more suitable for the job at hand, are better than the more expensive ones. To a degree, can't imagine even player piloted Cobra win with a player piloted Python.

Did FD give players enough already indeed? I'm under impression they are supposed to build up this game and are planning to add new features for about a decade. That's one. Two, it's not like anyone here is twisting their arm or pointing a gun at them. It's just a poll and a suggestion.



As soon as you organise an effective police force to protect all of the systems that should be secure (so you can skip the Anarchy systems in your efforts, together with combat zones etc.), I'm sure many players currently playing in Mobius or solo will be happy to try playing in Open more often. I'd suggest starting with some protection services, like chasing and hunting down a criminal until they pay back for insurance and cargo for the ships they destroyed, and you could take it from there and slowly expand. Organise a police station with a small wing of Condas in every civilized system, then have regular patrols of some cheap ships, like Vultures, combing said system in search of criminals, then add some task force for special operations. And don't forget that in civilized space you will get some support from the local authorities as well. Yeah, player driven and organised Interpol is a great idea, I'm all for it, can even pay 10% of my ingame income in taxes to fund this, no problem at all. If that was possible.

There is just one, tiny issue (well, two tiny issues actually)... We know of slightly below 4k systems (3784). Even if we consider 100 of them to be "secure" and even if you get to the first stage of the plan (let's say 5 players protecting other players per secure system), you need 500 players to do nothing else but to work as convoy security guards in the civilized space. Since you would need them 24/7. Lets say each of them is doing 3h shift, which means you need 4k players to do just that. If you want to add that police station stage, say, 3 Anacondas per system, 300 in total at any given time gives 2.4k players needed. Regular patrols in the systems? Another 2.4k at least. So you need roughly 10k players to successfully police the inhabited space and make it more or less secure.
The most you can do is to create a small task force to chase after griefers and this will always be the case. You may be successful and get few hundred players into one association / guild. But then you are not even going to be able to chase after the criminals, because the system won't put you in the same instance, so you will be chasing shadows. And if you finally find them by extreme coincidence, they can just combat log and here your policing is done.

Online game being policed by players looks awesome. On paper. It's not really possible in any online game (although in many you can actually hunt down griefers, which I've done in the past), and completely impossible in Elite. You would need to form convoy wings with every trader ingame, which again, is impossible. Numbers are not on your side here.

If open isn't dangerous, and it's easy to avoid PVP, why are we even having this discussion. We don't need a PVE mode. And I found more annoying people in WOW than I've ever seen in Elite. Those people are some awful human beings. Elite players, in general, are some of the nicest, most mature players I've ever encountered.

 

[DHMeyer]

If open isn't dangerous, and it's easy to avoid PVP, why are we even having this discussion. We don't need a PVE mode. And I found more annoying people in WOW than I've ever seen in Elite. Those people are some awful human beings. Elite players, in general, are some of the nicest, most mature players I've ever encountered.

You see the problem is that players who are against the idea of Open PVE tend to be very vocal about how in current Open they either do not meet many players, or almost don't see any PVP or how easy it is to escape from interdictions. And therefore people who started playing in Mobius or who suggest Open PVE as an additional mode, should just play in Open. And it's all cool, but this doesn't take under consideration that some players are not interested in any PVP they are forced into and are not interested in being moving target. It doesn't take under consideration the fact that players are not able to protect other players from griefers in Open due to instancing, and this may impact how many players actually stay with Elite and buy future expansions. And it doesn't take under consideration the fact that some players are interested in playing Elite as a PVE only game.
PVE players are being sent to Solo (which, obv. is PVE) or to Private Groups, where they can play with likeminded people. On the other hand, when they go into a private group, you get people going out of their way to get there and force PVE players into PVP anyway. Or, they are being told they should just play in Open and accept being a moving target to whoever decides it's fun for them to shoot a player. These are not solutions to the problem. This is sweeping the dust under the carpet and pretending that a large group of players simply does not exist in this game. And the only group of players who are right and for whom this game was made, is the group interested in PVP. Whereas nobody is forcing PVP players to not enjoy PVP, PVP players seem to be extremely interested in dictating PVE players the way PVE players should play Elite. Sooner or later Frontier will have to find some reasonable solution and a compromise. Sooner is better than later in this case.

You still didn't elaborate on your idea of player organised policing and security? Any roadmap for when we're going to see it in Open?

 

[StarTux]

Awful idea, sorry, no PVE only mode please that is hard coded as its a waste of resources for little or no return.

Better idea perhaps is to advertise or show information on how to join groups, perhaps advertising PVE groups and perhaps other interesting groups and groups should have decent functionality to do admin work etc etc.

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You see the problem is that players who are against the idea of Open PVE tend to be very vocal about how in current Open they either do not meet many players, or almost don't see any PVP or how easy it is to escape from interdictions. And therefore people who started playing in Mobius or who suggest Open PVE as an additional mode, should just play in Open. And it's all cool, but this doesn't take under consideration that some players are not interested in any PVP they are forced into and are not interested in being moving target. It doesn't take under consideration the fact that players are not able to protect other players from griefers in Open due to instancing, and this may impact how many players actually stay with Elite and buy future expansions. And it doesn't take under consideration the fact that some players are interested in playing Elite as a PVE only game.
PVE players are being sent to Solo (which, obv. is PVE) or to Private Groups, where they can play with likeminded people. On the other hand, when they go into a private group, you get people going out of their way to get there and force PVE players into PVP anyway. Or, they are being told they should just play in Open and accept being a moving target to whoever decides it's fun for them to shoot a player. These are not solutions to the problem. This is sweeping the dust under the carpet and pretending that a large group of players simply does not exist in this game. And the only group of players who are right and for whom this game was made, is the group interested in PVP. Whereas nobody is forcing PVP players to not enjoy PVP, PVP players seem to be extremely interested in dictating PVE players the way PVE players should play Elite. Sooner or later Frontier will have to find some reasonable solution and a compromise. Sooner is better than later in this case.

You still didn't elaborate on your idea of player organised policing and security? Any roadmap for when we're going to see it in Open?

Not too many people got killed from the infiltration, in fact this is a prime example of an ant hill being turned into a mole hill. Sure, sucks for those hit by the efforts of the few that perpetrated the act, but still a small issue. Maybe an updated EULA stating something along the lines about it being against the EULA to purposely attack people in a private group just to cause issues within said group if its against the groups rules? I hope that made sense .

But, last I read Mobiius has tools to ban people so that even if they create a new commander they still cannot get in. Problem solved, if they decide to buy new accounts to circumvent, well...

 

[Faded Glory]

Awful idea, sorry, no PVE only mode please that is hard coded as its a waste of resources for little or no return.

Better idea perhaps is to advertise or show information on how to join groups, perhaps advertising PVE groups and perhaps other interesting groups and groups should have decent functionality to do admin work etc etc.

That was a decent idea and response before FD acknowledged that players breaking a group's rules (if it didn't break the games rules) was not an issue.

Not too many people got killed from the infiltration, in fact this is a prime example of an ant hill being turned into a mole hill. Sure, sucks for those hit by the efforts of the few that perpetrated the act, but still a small issue. Maybe an updated EULA stating something along the lines about it being against the EULA to purposely attack people in a private group just to cause issues within said group if its against the groups rules? I hope that made sense .

Maybe an updated EULA takes more work and cost (and potentially causes more problems) than an Open PvE group... I don't know.

 

[DHMeyer]

Awful idea, sorry, no PVE only mode please that is hard coded as its a waste of resources for little or no return.

Better idea perhaps is to advertise or show information on how to join groups, perhaps advertising PVE groups and perhaps other interesting groups and groups should have decent functionality to do admin work etc etc.

Calling a significant number of players (over half of them, according to the poll in this thread only) "little or no return" is rather rich... There's probably around £ 1mil sitting in Mobius in game and expansion only, not mentioning paintworks, merch etc. I'd have "little or no return" like this please.

Improving groups and advertising groups is a good short term measure, but not a long term solution.

Not too many people got killed from the infiltration, in fact this is a prime example of an ant hill being turned into a mole hill. Sure, sucks for those hit by the efforts of the few that perpetrated the act, but still a small issue. Maybe an updated EULA stating something along the lines about it being against the EULA to purposely attack people in a private group just to cause issues within said group if its against the groups rules? I hope that made sense .

But, last I read Mobiius has tools to ban people so that even if they create a new commander they still cannot get in. Problem solved, if they decide to buy new accounts to circumvent, well...

Not too many is still too many. Updated EULA? I'm totally happy with that, wouldn't hurt probably. But may turn out to be more difficult than adding an Open PVE... Adding group administration tools also requires resources, btw.

Yes. Mobius has tools to ban people. I don't (not that I need them). Johnny Nextguy doesn't have the same possibility with his group of 1k PVE players. Andrew Nextnextguy doesn't have these tools either. What happens if both Mobius groups (there are two now) grow to 20k players each (and they will)? Will he get another group to manage? What happens if some other group grows to be 20k as well? Will Frontier have to use emergency measures and have their staff again help with group administration or should they give similar tools to every player out there starting a group now? That's why advertising PVE groups is not good enough as a permanent solution.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

What risk? Either it's rare to encounter a hostile player in current Open and if a hostile player is encountered, it's easy to avoid them and therefore there is no risk in playing in Open - therefore making an Open PVE mode no different than current Open except for giving players the choice of not getting pestered and not having their time wasted for no reason. Or the points stated by people who have encountered hostile players who tried hostile interactions repeatedly are valid and therefore they shouldn't be forced to play with those people. Simples.

So if it is rare to encounter PvP and easy to avoid if encountered and therefore if open wouldn't differ much from open PvE, why do we need a mode then that is almost the same as another?
I am fine with 10 Connies. But no unrealistic no PvP zones or immortality. And noone is forced into a mode. It's every player for themselves who decide that but just because some people want the rose without the thorns doesn't mean it is the rose's fault. If people start bleeding from the rose it is their own fault because they want the rose. You either accept that it can hurt you or you leave the rose alone.

But there should definately no thornless rose. It would just be a red flower then.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This was the start of my first post in this thread.

Tricky one.

Would I like to see a dedicated Open PvE mode? Yes
Should there be a dedicated Open PvE mode? No

In other words, as much as i would like to see it and have a mode where no-PvP is enforced rather than relying on Mobius approving etc, I don't think it would be good for the game in general.

However, after reading the many posts in this thread from some PvP advocates, i now wish i could change my vote to a Yes. I'm now strongly in favour of a dedicated PvE mode.

 

[excalibus]

So, an intrusive and pervasive change to the codebase because something can happen even though by all accounts the incidence of it actually occurring is as close to 0 as makes no odds.

Time to leave this thread. Good luck with convincing FD that this is a higher priority than the rest of the stuff they need to work on to keep this game generating revenue.

while the 'indicents' are closer to zero than they are to 100,000 they are closer to 20 than they are to 0

so on that account, it's not because something 'can' happen, it's because some things have happened... further to that, let's say a megre 10% of the player base wanted a PVE multiplayer mode, that would still be well over 100,000 players and probably closer to 120,000 players... I wonder how many existing players (non forum members) would join mobius if they knew about it? and mobius has an influx of about 500 players a week, so it that trend keeps up, this time next year they could have 45,000 members...

 

[Marra Morgan]

However, after reading the many posts in this thread from some PvP advocates, i now wish i could change my vote to a Yes. I'm now strongly in favour of a dedicated PvE mode.

Heh, I know how you feel!
But I find that it's balanced out by some of the PvE advocates, who annoy me just as much.

 

[bootsam]

This was the start of my first post in this thread.



However, after reading the many posts in this thread from some PvP advocates, i now wish i could change my vote to a Yes. I'm now strongly in favour of a dedicated PvE mode.

Me too.

 

[Roland2]

So if it is rare to encounter PvP and easy to avoid if encountered and therefore if open wouldn't differ much from open PvE, why do we need a mode then that is almost the same as another?
I am fine with 10 Connies. But no unrealistic no PvP zones or immortality. And noone is forced into a mode. It's every player for themselves who decide that but just because some people want the rose without the thorns doesn't mean it is the rose's fault. If people start bleeding from the rose it is their own fault because they want the rose. You either accept that it can hurt you or you leave the rose alone.

But there should definately no thornless rose. It would just be a red flower then.

Rare does not equal none. If a deadly disease is rare, it still sucks to be the one who has it. If there is a known cure, do we provide the cure, or say, oh well, it's rare, so don't worry about it.

Also, there are thornless roses (google is your friend).

 

[Deadspin]

Rare does not equal none. If a deadly disease is rare, it still sucks to be the one who has it. If there is a known cure, do we provide the cure, or say, oh well, it's rare, so don't worry about it.

Also, there are thornless roses (google is your friend).

It doesn't matter if rare doesn't equal none. It's open. Take measures to avoid PvP or go back to solo/pg.

Thornless roses only came about after generations of genetic manipulation I'd imagine (Though I could be wrong) so it would be safe to say that "zero" pvp is still quite a ways off in terms of how many times FDev will need to tweak the genetic "code" of Elite.

 

[Siobhan]

Rare does not equal none. If a deadly disease is rare, it still sucks to be the one who has it. If there is a known cure, do we provide the cure, or say, oh well, it's rare, so don't worry about it.

PVP is a deadly disease? Personally I kinda agree... certainly the urge to hurt or kill, be it in game or in rl is a sign of a diseased mind. However, I don't expect many will agree with me...

Or do you mean that we should only worry about being killed if the likelihood is above a certain arbitrary value? That's even sillier... worry, or not... but don't base it on the throw of a die.

 

[Roland2]

It doesn't matter if rare doesn't equal none. It's open. Take measures to avoid PvP or go back to solo/pg.

Thornless roses only came about after generations of genetic manipulation I'd imagine (Though I could be wrong) so it would be safe to say that "zero" pvp is still quite a ways off in terms of how many times FDev will need to tweak the genetic "code" of Elite.

I agree, if you are playing in the current open. That's why we are proposing an open PvE, so players can have the benefits of open, without the percieved negative of PvP.

Again, according to google search, thornless roses are natural occurrences, no genetic code manipulation required (just evolution).

 

[madbilly]

I would add that my Yes vote was on the assumption that punishments and deterrents to criminal activity are kept the same as they currently are, i.e. basically non-existent. If some of the changes proposed in other threads are implemented then I don't think dedicated Open PvE is necessary, and I might not use it even if it did exist - there are some aspects of PvP I would miss, e.g. the notorious player-pirates who interdict me (I do at least have a chance to avoid interdiction) or shouting "blockade" outside the space stations and giving me chance to scarper! However, I also remember being very annoyed when even these "polite" PvP players attack me!

However, regardless of any changes, I imagine we'll be having this discussion forever.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

However, regardless of any changes, I imagine we'll be having this discussion forever.

Its got some way to go before it overtakes the Open vs Group vs Solo thread though

 

[Suohhen]

I voted " Yes " to this pole way back at the beginning of this thread ( about a year ago, I think ). I have read many answers from many who are against this mode, and as "Spock" once stated in an episode of Star Trek: " The torrential flow of illogic is most fascinating". (1.) This mode would not likely take many players away from current Open because they probably are in Solo/Group anyhow. (2.) Why should there be a hard and fast rule that anyone who wants player interaction must accept PVP in Open. This is absurd, and as has been mentioned is not the way it is in other games nor should it be. (3.) The insulting notion that the FD staff are so limited in their abilities (can't walk and chew gum at the same time) that they would not be able to implement this and work on other things if they chose to. I am fairly certain that a group of people who could create this extraordinary piece of "Digital Art" should have no problem doing this and everything else. (4.) There are very few successful companies who, when given the chance to alter their product in a way that will expand their customer base, and improve the experience for a segment of that base, without adversely affecting the rest of the base, would not do it. And imo, after having read "the torrential flow" there is still no good reason given for opposing this. And, instead of continuing to come up with all of these very complicated changes to the current game in order to solve this problem, the simplest and most sensible thing is to simply have a mode where no damage is done between player ships. Those who like current Open, can stay there. This mode will be for those who want to fly with real people but only kill npc's. It does not have to be any more complicated than that. The wheel has already been invented.

 

[Mohrgan]

Wheels are unfair, everyone should have to use tracks. Like on a Tank. Tracks or go home.

 

[excalibus]

It doesn't matter if rare doesn't equal none. It's open. Take measures to avoid PvP or go back to solo/pg.

Thornless roses only came about after generations of genetic manipulation I'd imagine (Though I could be wrong) so it would be safe to say that "zero" pvp is still quite a ways off in terms of how many times FDev will need to tweak the genetic "code" of Elite.

see... this is also part of the problem... I think you are misinterpreting the intention of the discussion... this particular thread / discussion is not about changing the current OPEN mode of play but adding an additional mode of play that private groups cannot currently accomodate especially since FDev have stated that breaking private groups rules are not breaking the games rules, and as such forced and unwanted PVP in a PVE private group is very much a reality...
So your statement above to 'avoid PVP' by going to private groups cannot guaranteee avoiding PVP can it?

 

[bootsam]

Of course I hope everyone is aware that ED is all just a massive social experiment. FD are just poking monkeys in a cage to see what happens. How we react, how we bicker, how we prosper and how we co-operate. Later they will be extracting our brains for analysis. Good luck finding anything in my skull suckers. I know your game.