Is it just 'grinders' who feel the game lacks depth?

Wall of text alert!

Almost every day there’s a new post decrying some game feature, pointing out how bugged or just plain unfair it is, usually accompanied with demands for better game mechanisms to achieve whatever the feature does. It doesn’t take long for the thread to devolve into derogatory remarks, White Knight and Fanboi are particular favourites of mine*, sent at anyone daring to challenge how bugged or unfair the feature is. It's good fun, rough and tumble forum handbags, which is why we’re all here, right?

What I don’t understand is the accusation that these features are part of a wider issue, leading to a game experience that’s ocean wide and puddle deep. There is no ‘depth’ to the game, apparently. It’s just a series of dull grinds, with badly thought out rationales for the various features.

The reason I don’t understand is that the supporters of the OP, sometimes the OP themselves, often state that they’ve been gaming the game- stacking slave trading missions by switching game modes, taking on endless charity missions and so forth. Which I totally agree sounds very dull, even tedious.

My experience has been a wee bit different. I like to try out the various options available to us and I’m fascinated by their effects. One of the very first things I did in game was (unintentionally) flip an unalligned system. I then put up a Quixotic defence of it against the Kumo Crew hordes. By the time it flipped right back I was so unpopular with the cut-throat NPCs I had to relocate to some place a little safer. It was an absolute blast! True, I could have played it entirely solo, I hardly saw another commander the whole time my little personal crusade was underway. And it would have been more fun with friends. But even so, it was astounding to find that I could have a real effect on the system I chose. A living, breathing galaxy, just as advertised. :cool:

Roll forward a couple of years and I’m playing the BGS again, with the added bonus of having friends this time around, and human opponents (although the SDC deny defending their turf, someone is! [haha]). It’s a tiny part of the wider game, but there are so many disparate elements, so many factors interacting, that it’s almost a stand alone game. It seems that there are layers of game play beneath the pretty background!

Those layers won’t get you rank or access to end game ships, though. It strikes me that using the various features in a ‘realistic’ manner adds spice to the game and increases the sense of immersion. If you pick up on charity missions on a case by case basis, for instance, only taking up causes you sympathise with and that won’t negatively impact on whatever you’re trying to achieve when the mission is offered, you’ll eventually achieve a well earned reputation. With that will come rank and privilege- including the right to buy those shiny end game ships. It feels like a natural consequence of your in game actions, rather than a clumsy exploit that those dummies in Cambridge haven’t got around to fixing yet.

In this sandbox game, setting our own objectives, playing an extremely powerful character, everything we do has an effect. Every game career has an impact on the human occupied galaxy, there’s more going on than usually meets the eye. Now you can shrug and feel that a few percentile points on a system summary means nothing to you. You want a ginagerous ship and you want more pew-pew, or safer trading. The best and quickest way to do that is to game the game, take the fullest advantage of every grind feature and race up the ranks, accumulate a mountain of wealth and strut about in your brand new, end game ship.
Well, that’s fair enough, you can do that and I wish you the best of luck. But I don’t think it’s particularly fair to slag nine hells out of the game for lacking ‘depth’ when your own actions have deliberately destroyed any sense of immersion you may have otherwise had. You’re the one taking away the ambiance and character the developers have tried to incorporate into your experience.

Is it just me who thinks you get out of the game experience what you put in? If you want to play a role, or explore game mechanics, or enjoy co-operative endeavours with like minded players, the game has the tools to allow you to do that. But at the same time, if all you want is in game achievements, the quickest and easiest ways to get them tend to make them feel less like achievement and more like make work. :D


* Because I am a Fanboi, with a tendancy to White Knight! ;)
 
I game the game. I don't feel that it's boring. I do wish that BGS changes were more obvious, and you were made to feel some kind of accomplishment.

Anyway, my endgame is different than your endgame. Once I get a few more million credits and quadruple Elite I plan on interdicting and pew pewing anything I can find in open.
 
It's a valid argument, and one I personally sympathise with: we could all do with being less goal oriented when gaming, and enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

However, a well designed game accommodates both players who consciously aim for good gameplay experiences, and those that want to achieve personal progression goals.

Indeed, it is my opinion that the best games are the ones that utilise their progression systems so that gameplay oriented players end up experiencing meaningful progression inadvertantly, and that progression oriented players experience good gameplay by the same mechanism, thus meaning that players get enjoyment out of something they didn't necessarily plan.

This is where I feel elite fails: those who value progression will not have a good gameplay experience, and vice versa. Part of the balancing process (and the reason I advocate buffs to underpaying professions and missions) is to bring those positive experiences together, not separate them as Elite does currently
 
I dont know. I think it lacks content because when i play everything that can be done feels really basic or its just another broken mission.

The greatest appeal to this game had is when its played for the first time. Everything seems new and completely different, especially the controls in particular. Now after a year of playing that sense of something different has faded as ive gotten proficient enough in piloting that long breaks dont effect my overall performance. Again, now that piloting feels pretty natural its easier to notice everything else thats going on in the game.

Every update up to now hasnt brought enough content to keep me interested longer than a couple weeks while only playing for 2-3 days out of those weeks...
 
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The game is so basic and simple and thats really boring.

Besides since release the game focus in grinding the same stuff over and over with really shallow content.
 
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If you're happy with the current state of the game and you've found activities that you enjoy then that's great. Some of us want to experience flying the endgame ships or have a fleet of ships. The only way for us to eventually get to that point is a ton of credit and rank grinding. For a supposed sandbox game where you can blaze your own trail I find it unacceptable.
 
Well, no. The game does lack depth. If you think of a game's logic as a flow chart, you could define the game's breadth by the range of actions/choices available to the player; and the depth is the length of each decision tree, the number of branching decisions, and the impact of each decision on the player and/or his or her environment.

In ED, there are many things to do (breadth); but with no consequences, few follow-on choices. Take exploration, jump into a system, honk, point at a star/planet until you know its name. Then what? What consequences are there to that action? What new decisions has it opened up? How has it improved/disimproved the lot of the player? What has the player learned? It has improved a bit with Horizons (ability to detect which planets can be landed on, can approach and land on them, find points of interest, mine resources) so you're not just finding and tagging randomly coloured balls, but it still has a way to go.

Note - I'm not say the player needs to be some 'hero' that affects the entire galaxy, but there should be more impact from his/her actions and consequent decisions/actions arising from them.
 
when I upgrade to a bigger ship it flies the same
when I visit another station it looks the same
blablabla...
 
I'll admit I didn't read the wall of text but, I feel compelled to reiterate what I said two years ago:

I love the grind. The "grind" is the freedom to go and do what you want, on your own schedule, without the simple minded carrot leading you down a short path to "fun". If the game is a "grind" for anyone, change your gameplay, mix it up, use your imagination. Too many people, IMO, are too used to being lead down a path concentrated excitement, which usually ends in a week (if that) or less.

Space is not some action movie adrenaline rush (although in ED it can be) it's a lot of things but, a "grind" is not one of them.
 
The BGS is one of the more interesting aspects of the game for me. They could've given it some more development. It's a mystery to me as to why PP isn't connected to it in a meaningful way; instead we have a completely separate PP system that is utterly nonsensical.
 
The game is easy, and certain rewards (Cutter, Corvette) require grinding, i.e. the same process over and over (rep farming)
 
The game is easy, and certain rewards (Cutter, Corvette) require grinding, i.e. the same process over and over (rep farming)

Nothing is required, you choose to do it or you don't . It's not like you can't finish the level unless you gain a rank.
 
I think the answer is "yes and no". No, the game is not as lacking in depth as grinders claim.....as the sense of the lack of depth is in large part created by their own behaviour. However, that is not to say that claims of a lack of depth are entirely without merit. This is why I am so looking forward to the 2.1/1.6 update in May-June. What has been described so far sounds like we are going to get the depth we had previously been lacking, & I suspect that grinding will be a much less useful tactic than it is currently!
 
...sounds like we are going to get the depth we had previously been lacking...

what we have at the moment is a game rich in game mechanics, but not content. Not sure we will "get the depth" with the upcoming patches, but it is a step in the right direction
 
The BGS is one of the more interesting aspects of the game for me. They could've given it some more development. It's a mystery to me as to why PP isn't connected to it in a meaningful way; instead we have a completely separate PP system that is utterly nonsensical.


Fear not, I get a very strong sense that this is coming soon-either in this update or the next one. Making the BGS more visible to players definitely seems to be the intention of 2.1, so I suspect that linking the BGS to Power Play will be one of the goals of 2.2!
 
I'm always amazed that gamers want to be lead or told what to do with "content". Why can't people see that ED is a galactic (literally) sandbox where there are no "rules" or hand holding? Want to be a pirate? Go be one. Want to be a trader? Go be one. Want to be a military officer? Go be one. Want to be an explorer? Go be one. Etc. etc.

A lot of "content" is hand holding narrative for those that lack the intellectual ability to create their own. IMO.
 
what we have at the moment is a game rich in game mechanics, but not content. Not sure we will "get the depth" with the upcoming patches, but it is a step in the right direction

The depth is from connecting the missions more closely to the BGS, & tying USS's to more specific & realistic locations.....as is putting faces to the factions. I feel that, if the changes that are being described are fully realised, then players will be much more deeply connected with the underlying story of the in-game galaxy. By the same token, having rewards that are not 100% connected to credits will help too......leads to much greater diversity in both what we do, & why we do it!
 
Nothing is required, you choose to do it or you don't . It's not like you can't finish the level unless you gain a rank.

It's not required to do anything in any game. You could play the same level in Super Mario World over and over if you want to, but that isn't how people like to play games. It IS required if you want the reward for it and it's the monotonous nature of the journey to the destination that people complain about. It doesn't have to be so generic. Repetition can feel varied and fun with proper design.

Whatever, this discussion is as monotonous and repetitive as the basis of the complaints. You either think E:D is the best experience out there or you think it can be better. Either way, we aren't breaking any new ground here with another topic on it, same ideas, different words. People that enjoy the game already, that's great, people that don't rely on FD to change their minds, not Joe Forum.

I'm always amazed that gamers want to be lead or told what to do with "content". Why can't people see that ED is a galactic (literally) sandbox where there are no "rules" or hand holding? Want to be a pirate? Go be one. Want to be a trader? Go be one. Want to be a military officer? Go be one. Want to be an explorer? Go be one. Etc. etc.

A lot of "content" is hand holding narrative for those that lack the intellectual ability to create their own. IMO.

Some people enjoy mission running and dev created narrative, who are you to say that they are wrong from getting enjoyment out of it? The majority of successful games are actually based on that content. People like to see that what they have done has affected the world. It isn't so apparent in Elite and it needs work if you expect people to enjoy blazing their own trail. Right now, the trail you blaze is the equivalent to doing donuts in a nearby dirt field, you kick up a lot of dust, but that's all you can see. You had fun for several minutes, but you sure don't feel like doing that everyday.

This notion that lack of intellectual ability or imagination is a defense of the state of the game is terrible. Not everyone wants to come home from work and build a puzzle, make a pot from clay, or pretend they are some Space Jack Sparrow in a game that doesn't even really respond to that idea in the first place. If the game actually responded to that in some fun or meaningful way, then you'd have an argument. The experiences you can have are not only limited, but they are shallow and meaningless.
 
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