Simple Fix to Combat Logging

[GluttonyFang]

What if every Piracy victim just self destructed to avoid paying off an attacker? Would there be a cry to remove that feature from the game?

Nope, at least not from me, I respect those willing to lose everything in a legitimate way to spite me. (And this happened to me about a handful of times)

Piracy causes the most complaints and hand wringing of any other subject on here. FD says, and provides tools, so one can pirate. They never promised that it would support your entire game currency needs, and they never said it would be easy.

Citation please, otherwise take that hyperbole elsewhere.

Tell me what tools to use to prevent combat logging victims, otherwise you are telling me FD handed me a non-functional multiplayer game with non-functional player piracy in it and I should ask for a refund.

Combat Logging is an unfortunate occurrence, just like mode jumping to stack missions, and griefing.

It's unfortunate in its disruption and disrespect for other players. If you want to force that equality, I suppose I can also count on you saying the exact same line to Mobius when it gets infiltrated and disrupted for the sake of doing so. If that is your stance, then sure, you do have a consistent stand. I count on you to reply to the next "Mobius is infiltrated" thread by telling them to stop complaining and get over their "first world problem."

We as a whole just have to learn to get over it. If it takes a weekly Kumbaya meeting for some group therapy, so be it. Maybe we should make a mega-thread called the "Campfire" where you all can sit down and talk it out.

We should have a group therapy session, for the anti-social combat loggers and pointless Mobius group disrupters and their sympathizers, that sounds great.

*Chuckles in the background*

 

[Mack]

Sure I posted in here, but my post seems to have gone walkabout without notification....

Either I'm going mad or Mod's ?????

anyway....

 

[Mohrgan]

Nope, at least not from me, I respect those willing to lose everything in a legitimate way to spite me. (And this happened to me about a handful of times)



Citation please, otherwise take that hyperbole elsewhere.

Tell me what tools to use to prevent combat logging victims, otherwise you are telling me FD handed me a non-functional multiplayer game with functional player piracy in it and I should ask for a refund.



It's unfortunate in its disruption and disrespect for other players. If you want to force that equality, I suppose I can also count on you saying the exact same line to Mobius when it gets infiltrated and disrupted for the sake of doing so. If that is your stance, then sure, you do have a consistent stand.



We should have a group therapy session, for the anti-social combat loggers and pointless Mobius group disrupters and their sympathizers, that sounds great.

*Chuckles in the background*

So, spite is a driving force? I'm not surprised.

Citation. That would take hours, and result in a wall of text like Jokey's. It just doesn't matter that much to me. You know it's true though.

When the most recent Mobius infiltration occurred, you can see that I said: There's not much you can do about it. Kick the tools out, and move on.

As for therapy, I got mine in the threads that coordinated the demise of the butt sniffers influence in their home system. That's the way I roll. I hope you can find some peace for yourself.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Sure I posted in here, but my post seems to have gone walkabout without notification....

Either I'm going mad or Mod's ?????

anyway....

Maybe you wrote something you shouldn't have? Sorry, not wading back through 14 pages looking to see Or maybe you just forgot to hit that post button?

Anyway on topic - with regards to what Gluttony and others are saying about Piracy, i'm guessing its not the biggest area where combat logging takes place - at least not the biggest risk area for combat logging. I think if the piracy is done "right" - ie: quick/early notification that its piracy (not a ganking) then people are less likely to log.

The two much bigger risk areas for combat logging are PvPers combat logging and when people get ganked, like people being attacked without reason by combat ships when they are flying a non-combat ship.

I could be wrong, but its the impression i get from the many posts on the topics over the years. Especially since should a pirate stop to talk, then its trival for someone who doesn't want to be pirated to get away without combat logging.

 

[GluttonyFang]

So, spite is a driving force? I'm not surprised.

How did you reach that conclusion? And in what context?

Citation. That would take hours, and result in a wall of text like Jokey's. It just doesn't matter that much to me. You know it's true though.

No, I really don't unless you provide citation, and if you are not willing to put in the effort for a debate on the subject, then I don't find that specific point you're pushing for to be valid.

When the most recent Mobius infiltration occurred, you can see that I said: There's not much you can do about it. Kick the tools out, and move on.

I count on you to write to them in every thread about Mobius invasion and tell them to "get over it" and it's a "first world problem."

As for therapy, I got mine in the threads that coordinated the demise of the butt sniffers influence in their home system. That's the way I roll. I hope you can find some peace for yourself.

A single measly thread shouldn't occupy your attention completely, I was running coordination for Archon Delaine for 5 months straight while running as The Code's Ambassador, and Hutton Crisis happened in the middle of everything and I managed.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Maybe you wrote something you shouldn't have? Sorry, not wading back through 14 pages looking to see Or maybe you just forgot to hit that post button?

Anyway on topic - with regards to what Gluttony and others are saying about Piracy, i'm guessing its not the biggest area where combat logging takes place - at least not the biggest risk area for combat logging. I think if the piracy is done "right" - ie: quick/early notification that its piracy (not a ganking) then people are less likely to log.

The two much bigger risk areas for combat logging are PvPers combat logging and when people get ganked, like people being attacked without reason by combat ships when they are flying a non-combat ship.

I could be wrong, but its the impression i get from the many posts on the topics over the years. Especially since should a pirate stop to talk, then its trival for someone who doesn't want to be pirated to get away without combat logging.

Already wrote about how to improve piracy and crime & punishment in a wall of text: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

The problem is that with or without piracy notification, people log regardless, which I have numerous encounter with where I send direct message the moment I complete the interdiction that notify the victim of the encounter with the following phase not one word off:

"Please throttle down for a warm greeting from the Code and a harmless cargo inspection."

And without me firing a single weapon, victims usually go "poof."

And the funny thing is sometimes they type back to me and go poof afterward within 15 seconds.

Which usually leads to:

{
interestInGame--;
}

 

[Mohrgan]

Here, this might help:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Kristov]

I really, really love the part with a shadow server filled only by combat loggers; in my opinion it's one of the best ways for combat loggers to learn first hand what is wrong with combat log.
Thank you for the idea good sir, have a +1 rep.

I can't take any credit for the shadow server, that's actually what FD proposed in the first place to deal with the rule breakers of all flavours, putting them all together on a shadow server. Good idea on the face of it, but they'd all just combat log on each other, and come here and whine about combat loggers. Putting them in a permanent Solo mode without any other options is the best punishment I think, as their transgressions are social in nature, remove the social aspects from their game, that'll hurt them.

Lol, no. Pretty far fetched. "It hurts others" - it does NOTHING like it. A minute game time wasted is all - a minor "hurt" compared to the "hurt" of not playing what I want to play.

Oh, so, let me get this straight, it doesn't hurt someone else when you combat log because you only want to play the way you want. So they can hurt you, but you can't hurt them? Really? You got any idea how messed up that is? Even when it's pointed out to you, as I'm doing right now, I'll wager you don't see how messed up it is because you are the only one that actually matters, right?

You don't want to get attacked by other players, stay out of Open, simple as that. If you are in Open, you HAVE consented to be other people's content and if you combat log, you've broken the rules FD have set in place for the game FD created and runs. If you don't like the rules, go play another game or create your own with your own rules, but as long as you playing Elite: Dangerous, you have to abide by the rules FD set, it's really THAT simple.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Here, this might help:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

This might help, too:

“Suffering comes from three quarters: from our own body, which is destined to decay and dissolution, and cannot even dispense with anxiety and pain as danger-signals; from the outer world, which can rage against us with the most powerful and pitiless forces of destruction; and finally from our relations with other men.”

 

[Mohrgan]

How did you reach that conclusion? And in what context?



No, I really don't unless you provide citation, and if you are not willing to put in the effort for a debate on the subject, then I don't find that specific point you're pushing for to be valid.


I count on you to write to them in every thread about Mobius invasion and tell them to "get over it" and it's a "first world problem."



A single measly thread shouldn't occupy your attention completely, I was running coordination for Archon Delaine for 5 months straight while running as The Code's Ambassador, and Hutton Crisis happened in the middle of everything and I managed.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Already wrote about how to improve piracy and crime & punishment in a wall of text: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

The problem is that with or without piracy notification, people log regardless, which I have numerous encounter with where I send direct message the moment I complete the interdiction that notify the victim of the encounter with the following phase not one word off:

"Please throttle down for a warm greeting from the Code and a harmless cargo inspection."

And without me firing a single weapon, victims usually go "poof."

Which usually leads to:

{
interestInGame--;
}

You said spite, not me.

When you provide a citation to every complaint you make, we may talk. Otherwise, I don;t feel any special need to accommodate you in reference to my observations.

I speak my mind. I can and do have layered, nuanced opinions about the Elite galaxy. When I do comment it's to satisfy myself, not the other readers.

Citation please. Where did I ever say that I only follow one thread at a time. What you managed is not of interest to me. You certainly can be proud of your involvement but, you'll have to accept my indifference.

 

[CMDR Mansoul]

I really, really love the part with a shadow server filled only by combat loggers; in my opinion it's one of the best ways for combat loggers to learn first hand what is wrong with combat log.
Thank you for the idea good sir, have a +1 rep.

That's a very good idea. And let's put that server on the start menu labelled Open PVE.

OR.. if I lose nothing when killed by a commander I'll let you kill me to your heart's content. I'll even fight back a bit, make it more exciting. "Some" PVP-ers want to know they cause negative emotions.

 

[GluttonyFang]

You said spite, not me.

... Like I asked... What does spite "drive?" How is it a "driving force?" What context are you using and how did you come to the conclusion, you can dodge the question all you want, but it falls on you to clarify.

When you provide a citation to every complaint you make, we may talk. Otherwise, I don;t feel any special need to accommodate you in reference to my observations.

I don't make statistical claims like the one you did without some sort of citation. Reciprocity isn't a stable element on the internet as it is in civilization. If you don't want to clarify and support your claim, don't make them.

I speak my mind. I can and do have layered, nuanced opinions about the Elite galaxy. When I do comment it's to satisfy myself, not the other readers.

Ah, allow me to suggest a better form of self-satisfaction that is proper according to your description:

Monologue.

Citation please. Where did I ever say that I only follow one thread at a time. What you managed is not of interest to me. You certainly can be proud of your involvement but, you'll have to accept my indifference.

Strawman is fun and all, but I never claimed that you can only follow one thread at a time, I commented on how one thread should not occupy your attention in its entirety. My reference to my involvement is to show how one may easily be engaged in many conversations and activities at once to support my claim of one's attention's capacity.

Semantics is my strong suit, unfortunately.

 

[Kristov]

... Like I asked... What does spite "drive?" How is it a "driving force?" What context are you using and how did you come to the conclusion, you can dodge the question all you want, but it falls on you to clarify.



I don't make statistical claims like the one you did without some sort of citation. Reciprocity isn't a stable element on the internet as it is in civilization. If you don't want to clarify and support your claim, don't make them.



Ah, allow me to suggest a better form of self-satisfaction that is proper according to your description:

Monologue.



Strawman is fun and all, but I never claimed that you can only follow one thread at a time, I commented on how one thread should not occupy your attention in its entirety. My reference to my involvement is to show how one may easily be engaged in many conversations and activities at once to support my claim of one's attention's capacity.

Semantics is my strong suit, unfortunately.

I hate to say this, Gluttony knows how much I hate to say it too, but..he's right you know.

 

[EdzUp]

Simple fix for combat logging detect Alt+F4 using a system hook and if it's done make ya ship explode. If the ping time of the game is fine and the person terminates using Task Manager etc make em explode.

All are detectable using windows/OSX and Linux using the client so there ya go.

Terminate the game to cheat and it terminates your ship in game

Error boxes like the surface one etc can be treated different.

 

[Mohrgan]

... Like I asked... What does spite "drive?" How is it a "driving force?" What context are you using and how did you come to the conclusion, you can dodge the question all you want, but it falls on you to clarify.



I don't make statistical claims like the one you did without some sort of citation. Reciprocity isn't a stable element on the internet as it is in civilization. If you don't want to clarify and support your claim, don't make them.



Ah, allow me to suggest a better form of self-satisfaction that is proper according to your description:

Monologue.



Strawman is fun and all, but I never claimed that you can only follow one thread at a time, I commented on how one thread should not occupy your attention in its entirety. My reference to my involvement is to show how one may easily be engaged in many conversations and activities at once to support my claim of one's attention's capacity.

Semantics is my strong suit, unfortunately.

I made no statistical claim. I made an observation. You can't turn it into anything more than that.

So much for factual based debating....

Semantics. Clever people can get out of trouble, smart people can stay out of trouble. I'm not going to tumble down every meaning and use of a word just to help you spend some of your time.

My overall point still stands. Combat Logging is a tempest in a tea cup. These threads do one thing. It gives some players a chance to vent. That can have some value. I for one seek root causes. If you can't control a situation, you learn to accept it, in game terms of course, the real world asks for more.

Chalk it up to a win, and move on. No one likes to be griefed, but all this attention just serves to fuel the fire. Good luck going forward.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I think you'll retract that statement when:

BH:

-Target ships disappear 75% of the time at 25% hull or 25% PP

Trading:

-Cargo hold loses all its content upon landing at the target station 75% of the time

Exploration:

-75% of the time scan data is not registered

Mining:

-75% fragment synthesis fail to create metal/mineral

etc

Tell me it's okay when this happens to every profession and play style.

I think it comes down to a simple thing: People just don't like being objectified.

 

[DHMeyer]

Your personal opinion on combat logging doesn't trump the developer's perspective, the one in the wrong here is the crime and punishment system and the combat loggers. Combat loggers are people that think they can just shove the chessboard off the table whenever the game doesn't go in said people's favor, and we classify this type of people as those inept in adapting to society and upholding basic respect for themselves and others, it's anti-social in its very root.

And so is griefing. FD saying it's not against the game rules doesn't make it a mature behaviour. FD saying c-logging is an exploit will also not change the way people may feel about using it in situations of unsolicited PVP. Each person will have a different definition of what is a right and wrong thing to do in an online game. EULA / TOS may give a guideline to follow, but that doesn't mean people will always follow them. Developers' perspective may influence the way such issues are being handled in the future, but for as long as there is no incentive to not use c-logging, people will use it. Some because they don't want unsolicited PVP, some because they want PVP, but not one they loose. I think there is a significant difference between the two, just like there is a difference between challenging PVP with players interested in that and in opening fire indiscriminately at every player encountered or at every player in a ship that can't defend itself.

Mobius recently received official support and attention in removing Cmdr on an account scale instead of a Cmdr scale to deal with the SDC, you either ignored this intentionally or you don't pay attention to the status quo. In what contemporary online game do you find combat logging ever appropriate, common sense doesn't fail just because it's a space sim. There is no official support for PvE nor PvP, there is official support for Elite: Dangerous but both sides seem to be very happy to strong-arm FD and see it as appropriate. Mobius is a great example of people making the game work in their favor in a legitimate fashion through covenant.

And that was a one-off. Presumably. Maybe FD staff will support Mobius in similar cases in the future, maybe it will not. It's nice of them to step in, but this may not always be possible. And it's not exactly fair to people running other big groups. In that last case FD made an exception to tackle the problem at hand, but they didn't change anything with the private groups and did nothing to prevent such incidents to happen in the future. And such accidents are likely happen again. And what if Mobius decides to stop hosting the groups?
Some more permanent solution is needed, one that would either allow to combine PVP and PVE gameplay, separating the two in one public group / mode, in one galaxy through PVP and non-PVP zones, or separate gaming preferences by putting PVPers and PVErs in two separate public groups / modes.
Both sides of this barricade do have some valid points. Personally I see their suggestions for what they are: suggestions expressing the need for certain solutions and showing Frontier that players do have an opinion and also enjoy different game styles. I don't think it's strong-arming, even if people are annoyed when posting their suggestions. There is no obligation for Frontier to follow these suggestions. In the end I hope they will make their decisions considering the future of ED and to make it a thriving online community.

That is a problem of crime and punishment, which the developers are already paying attention to. Being in Open equates the demand for respect for the mode and other players (as long as there is no cheating) regardless of what unfair disadvantage one is at. Wanting only a portion of the features in Open and quitting the moment the wind doesn't blow one's way is childish.

Crime and punishment system does need some serious revamp, but at the same time is has nothing to do with c-logging. Even if crime and punishment system is absolutely perfect, people will still use combat logging because of how much it costs them to recover from their loss. Nobody really flies heavy trading ships for the fun of it (by nobody I mean most people) but as a way to build up credits for other activities. Having to do the same, fairly uneventful and time consuming activity over and over again is a tempting incentive for combat logging. It may be childish, it may be cheating, but it's very tempting to just do that instead of repeating again a monotonous route from A to B. Especially that you may be forced to do that multiple times.

If a ship drops all its cargo/50% of the cargo when it combat logs, you will not ever see say another word about combat logging.

I doubt Frontier would introduce such a system. All they would have to do is to keep the c-logger ship ingame for a bit longer (and this can be done in P2P type of multiplayer as well). They haven't done that, they have not provided any other solutions to tackle combat logging which would mean c-logger ship's destruction or loss of cargo. More so, the ship comes back online in pristine condition. This says they either can't find an easy solution for whatever reason, or just don't see this issue as too much of a problem. Also, introducing such a system would make Open a mode to be abandoned. If this system was to not able to tell combat logging apart from client crash, that would probably mean massive exodus of players.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I made no statistical claim. I made an observation. You can't turn it into anything more than that.

Great, it's an observation, now that's over.

Semantics. Clever people can get out of trouble, smart people can stay out of trouble. I'm not going to tumble down every meaning and use of a word just to help you spend some of your time.

I'm going to ignore the implicit ad hominem, but don't worry, I'm counting.

My overall point still stands. Combat Logging is a tempest in a tea cup. These threads do one thing. It gives some players a chance to vent. That can have some value. I for one seek root causes. If you can't control a situation, you learn to accept it, in game terms of course, the real world asks for more.

Right, because accepting everything is going to lead to some sort of solution... How?

Mind you I've put forth proposal on numerous issues I complain about, so no, I'm not just venting, I'm being productive.

Chalk it up to a win, and move on. No one likes to be griefed, but all this attention just serves to fuel the fire. Good luck going forward.

Like I said numerous times before, pirating doesn't care about "winning" in the context you are using the phrase, there is no satisfaction nor entertainment from "winning" in the fashion you describe. If cargo gets dropped when it happens, then it's a different story. Otherwise it's just increased workload for the support team since I keep shadowplay online whenever I pirate.

Oh, in case you didn't know, the prominent reason why The Code's episode of Educating Ed is continuously delayed is due to FD not wanting combat logging to rampantly show up on their stream (not speculation, but actual communication between FD employee and Code leadership), so they care, and as long as CLing stay the way it is, I will keep protesting against its legitimacy and rampant usage/exploitation.

 

[AJW]

Simple fix for combat logging detect Alt+F4 using a system hook and if it's done make ya ship explode. If the ping time of the game is fine and the person terminates using Task Manager etc make em explode.

All are detectable using windows/OSX and Linux using the client so there ya go.

Terminate the game to cheat and it terminates your ship in game

Error boxes like the surface one etc can be treated different.

A 'simple fix' that anyone can get around by pulling the plug on their connection instead. Or by selectively disconnecting the player-to-player connection only. Not going to work. As has been pointed out already in the umpteen previous threads on this subject. I sometimes wonder if people actually read them before posting...

 

[GluttonyFang]

I think it comes down to a simple thing: People just don't like being objectified.

Indeed, when people get objectified when they get combat logged on, so what then?

 

[KaizoMK]

A 'simple fix' that anyone can get around by pulling the plug on their connection instead. Or by selectively disconnecting the player-to-player connection only. Not going to work. As has been pointed out already in the umpteen previous threads on this subject. I sometimes wonder if people actually read them before posting...

I doubt it, although to be fair I just forget a lot that you can break player connection without breaking ED connection. I'm a terrible criminal.