Simple Fix to Combat Logging

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"FD is the sovereign here"! Nope. Just silly. I see no reason to waste any further time on your vacuous sophistry. I suggest you dedicate a little more time to actually reading the documents you cite, and a little less to telling everyone how well read you are. If only for the sake of your future career...

Oh look the typical "I disagree with your point but I won't explain why."

Don't worry about my career, and for your information straight As here, so you can file your complaint to my professors if you want, oh wait, they probably saw reason in my view, they must be silly people too that need to watch out for their career... oh wait...

Please go embarrass yourself somewhere else. Clearly you haven't even read the very student of the one that is well-known for taking his stance against sophists...

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

But oh well, we were talking about pretending to be knowledgeable so I guess it applies here.
 
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I thought this was clear as day the moment I mentioned "acquiescence," but I guess I was wrong.

Why are you bringing up acquiescence when people are talking about consent? The two concepts are barely related.

Also, people are protesting, and therefore 'acquiescence' does not describe what is occurring.
 
Simple fix to combat logging: Let people play the game however they want. It's not like it's a competitive game anyway.
 
Why are you bringing up acquiescence when people are talking about consent? The two concepts are barely related.

Also, people are protesting, and therefore 'acquiescence' does not describe what is occurring.

Shhh, don't give the game away, this is getting entertaining...

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...we were talking about pretending to be knowledgeable so I guess it applies here.

We weren't until you brought up your favourite subject...
 
Why are you bringing up acquiescence when people are talking about consent? The two concepts are barely related.

Also, people are protesting, and therefore 'acquiescence' does not describe what is occurring.

Because consent is a privilege that rises after acquiescence, and only allowed if the subject in discussion is outside of the area covered by acquiescence, which PvP does not fall into, since if it does, every mechanic in game requires the player consent, which doesn't make sense. It will lead to ridiculous examples like:

"I entered this CZ and picked a side, I didn't consent to the NPCs on the opposite faction firing upon me."

"This NPC interdicted me, I didn't give consent to this NPC to interdict me."

The discussion at hand is exactly where some people are confusing subjects for consent and subjects decided via acquiescence.

What would make sense for consent is the following, and only because it isn't a subject under acquiescence, at least not yet:

"I only participate officially in Power Play by consenting to pledge to a power."
 
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Why are you bringing up acquiescence when people are talking about consent? The two concepts are barely related.

Also, people are protesting, and therefore 'acquiescence' does not describe what is occurring.

The difference is important for the people that insist that people aren't consenting to pvp in open, because apparently THAT argument is happening.

Simple fix to combat logging: Let people play the game however they want. It's not like it's a competitive game anyway.

It's problematic when part of your experience is ships that you're trying to interact with are disappearing, especially when it comes to the rewards part. Players feel ripped when it comes to that experience and that IS a problem in that context.
 
Shhh, don't give the game away, this is getting entertaining...

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We weren't until you brought up your favourite subject...

Oh yes, semantics is my favorite subject and this is very entertaining watching you claiming to be knowledgeable yet having no ability to defend your point other than plainly rejecting another's perspective.

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Simple fix to combat logging: Let people play the game however they want. It's not like it's a competitive game anyway.

Yea, but combat logging has direct effect on other players, which is why it needs to be properly addressed. It's not even about competitiveness, it's about general respect for other players.
 
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It doesn't matter to me. I'm not bending over to fulfill someone's perceived "need" if I don't want to.

Well, then the one being anti-social here is you, not anyone else. It's probably for the best that you stay in Solo/Mobius for the time being until Open gets sorted out.

If you maintain your attitude and insist to play in Open and combat log on people that you "perceive" to be hostile, you are of the same kind of people as those that invade Mobius intentionally to shoot Cmdrs outside of allowed areas and break Mobius' rules.

If you are okay with that, that's fine then.
 
Yea, but combat logging has direct effect on other players, which is why it needs to be properly addressed. It's not even about competitiveness, it's about general respect for other players.

I can sit in Robigo mines all day accepting Shadow Missions, abandoning them, and selling off the Slaves left in my hold for endless amounts of free money.
I can get a Sidewinder, grind it down to 1% on a star, then ram anyone I want to put a murder warrant on them. Then get another free Sidewinder to do it again.
I can interdict the same noob over and over endlessly if I feel like it just because it amuses me.

Combat logging is just another non-issue that people need to unbunch their panties about.
 
I can sit in Robigo mines all day accepting Shadow Missions, abandoning them, and selling off the Slaves left in my hold for endless amounts of free money.

This doesn't affect other players directly, nor much at all, actually.

I can get a Sidewinder, grind it down to 1% on a star, then ram anyone I want to put a murder warrant on them. Then get another free Sidewinder to do it again.

If you want, sure, it's not griefing and it's considered legitimate, FD support have commented on ramming people and making them wanted/getting blown up by stations, it's perfectly within the parameter in ED and set by FD.


I can interdict the same noob over and over endlessly if I feel like it just because it amuses me.

You will get reported for harassment if you do it enough.

Combat logging is just another non-issue that people need to unbunch their panties about.

Well, how about I make the following changes for the in-game activities you engage in:

I would like to propose for the following changes to professions:

BH:

-Target ships disappear 75% of the time at 25% hull or 25% PP

Trading:

-Cargo hold loses all its content upon landing at the target station 75% of the time

Exploration:

-75% of the time scan data is not registered

Mining:

-75% fragment synthesis fail to create metal/mineral

etc

Then tell you they are non-issue that people need to unbunch their panties about?

If you say you're perfectly fine with that, then okay.
 
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Oh yes, semantics is my favorite subject and this is very entertaining watching you claiming to be knowledgeable yet having no ability to defend your point other than plainly rejecting another's perspective.

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Yea, but combat logging has direct effect on other players, which is why it needs to be properly addressed. It's not even about competitiveness, it's about general respect for other players.

Since I play in Solo against NPC's, and don't combat log against *them*, this makes me the *lowest* of scum. :)
 
When someone's 'perspective' is built around the premise that games developers are absolute monarchs, who's very word is rule of law (something even the ED EULA doesn't claim, though I've seen a few that get close...), it is difficult to take it seriously. If Weber is relevant at all (which I have to say seems highly debatable, to say the least), it is where he points out the difference between different forms of power, and in particular the way 'legitimacy' for the (then) modern state was built around "belief in the validity of legal statute andfunctional 'competence' based on rationally created rules." Actual written down rules. In statute. Or even (at a pinch, for arguments sake) in an EULA. Or stretching it even further, since we are only discussing a computer game, and this isn't actually a court of law, on the menu. My point was that there is no 'legal statute' saying anything about consenting to anything. One can argue that consent for PvP in ED isn't necessary (it almost certainly isn't), but claiming it exists because FD exerts absolute power? Nope. Like I said, silly. Absolute monarchs don't need 'consent'. FD doesn't need consent to allow PvP in open, for that matter. Logic however says that one cannot actually consent to something one is unaware of.
 
When you log into Open, you are giving me all the consent. ALL OF IT!

Edit: *evil laugh*

Seriously though, if you want to argue that you are not giving consent for me to interdict you and pirate you / destroy your ship, that's fine. But you are fully aware that it might happen and that combat logging to avoid it is against the rules. Combat logging is what this thread is about afterall.
 
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When someone's 'perspective' is built around the premise that games developers are absolute monarchs, who's very word is rule of law (something even the ED EULA doesn't claim, though I've seen a few that get close...), it is difficult to take it seriously.

... Are you playing strawman with a straight face?

FD is the sovereign here, and the Elite Dangerous universe the game itself is under the jurisdiction of FD.

If Weber is relevant at all (which I have to say seems highly debatable, to say the least), it is where he points out the difference between different forms of power, and in particular the way 'legitimacy' for the (then) modern state was built around "belief in the validity of legal statute andfunctional 'competence' based on rationally created rules."

Actual written down rules. In statute. Or even (at a pinch, for arguments sake) in an EULA. Or stretching it even further, since we are only discussing a computer game, and this isn't actually a court of law, on the menu.

The legality here is understood to be FD's vision of the game and their statements, which clearly incorporate PvP in the picture through the numerous quotes even mentioned in this thread. Since if you only include EULA, then your argument about consent is applied to everything, which doesn't make sense as I've pointed out here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=237164&p=3662210&viewfull=1#post3662210

My point was that there is no 'legal statute' saying anything about consenting to anything. One can argue that consent for PvP in ED isn't necessary (it almost certainly isn't), but claiming it exists because FD exerts absolute power? Nope. Like I said, silly. Absolute monarchs don't need 'consent'. FD doesn't need consent to allow PvP in open, for that matter. Logic however says that one cannot actually consent to something one is unaware of.

FD has absolute control over the player's account (monopoly of force), player can appeal against it to FD (within the scope of the state [Elite Dangerous]), or appeal to the actual legality in one's country/government (outside of the scope of ED).

FD has absolute control over what happens in ED, what rules exist, what is acceptable and what is not.

By playing Elite Dangerous, players are actively aware of this, hence by extension, PvP is a part of the content in Open and Group possibly engaged for the time being like everything else available.

Edit:

I think every player wants to tell FD that they didn't consent to the crime and punishment system in the universe and the death penalty (rebuy), but guess what? It doesn't matter, all players can do is propose alternative implementation or complain while dealing with what is currently in place.

Edit2:

Actually now all background simulation players can now rise up in arms and claim that they didn't consent to other Cmdrs influencing their BGS if your claim is somehow valid. That makes no sense.

Edit3:

Oh wait, all the PP players can now rise up in arms like the BGS players similarly.

I think anyone can see where this is going.
 
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FD has no monopoly of force over anything. If they had, they would (per Weber) be a state, not a games developer. And regardless of what they are, they can't 'consent' to something on somebody else's behalf. That isn't consent.
 
FD has no monopoly of force over anything. If they had, they would (per Weber) be a state, not a games developer. And regardless of what they are, they can't 'consent' to something on somebody else's behalf. That isn't consent.

You're telling me FD doesn't have monopoly of force over the ED universe? Seriously? With a straight face?

I thought you said you read Weber and are familiar with it...

If Weber is relevant at all (which I have to say seems highly debatable, to say the least), it is where he points out the difference between different forms of power, and in particular the way 'legitimacy' for the (then) modern state was built around "belief in the validity of legal statute andfunctional 'competence' based on rationally created rules."

You said yourself that this was the relevant segment of the book, but you weren't aware that this is under the section about legitimate domination...?

If you can't understand that FD has legitimate domination over the state known as ED universe, then I really don't know if you are just covering your eyes while typing or you really don't understand.

Edit:

FD = Sovereign

ED Universe = State

Please take this discussion seriously.

Edit2:

Hell, I even wrote it here a page before this one:

FD is the sovereign here, and the Elite Dangerous universe the game itself is under the jurisdiction of FD.
 
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The 'ED universe' is not a state. It is a computer game. A person playing a computer game is not a part of the game. The game cannot 'consent' to something for them. And nor can the game developers. If you are having difficulty grasping this elementary statement of the obvious, talk to your law professors.
 
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The 'ED universe' is not a state. It is a computer game. A person playing a computer game is not a part of the game. The game cannot 'consent' to something for them. And nor can the game developers. If you are having difficulty grasping this elementary statement of the obvious, talk to your law professors.

Then you don't understand the concept of extrapolation.

ED universe is a state, it's a virtual one, but it is a state regardless that has citizens (players) and a sovereign known as FD.

A state cannot give consent, only the sovereign can use legitimate force, the state is formed through the acquiescence of the citizens.

The only reason this happens is because the elements FD uses as elements of acquiescence are elements of consent left available to the citizens of whatever government they belong to/live under. Actions taken in the state of ED universe is under the jurisdiction of FD.

This isn't a legal debate, this is a political theory debate and you should know that the moment I brought up a political theorist that you are supposedly familiar with instead of an actual court case as precedence/case law.
 
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