Powerplay Cycle 40 PP Commentary

[Xargo]

The Kumo passive changes are only applied in the control systems, slavery, weapons, narcotics and combat stimulants are not made legal in our exploited systems.

I meant this: "Archon's rule creates a great deal of instability."

No idea what that means in practice but I'd assume that it's pretty much the same than Utopia has for it's control systems, increased influence shifts of minor factions.

Really? Because the only power that indicates any kind of change that isn't shown in the other parts is Utopia. You have a sample size of 1 that you're trying to extrapolate off of. Now, obviously I cannot point to one of these systems, because that is the bug - either Antal's passive descriptions are wrong or his market impact is wrong.

I agree the "Headquarters" title is misleading but that doesn't make it a bug. For example right hand panel government types compared to what is shown in system view is confusing as well but still not a bug. "Headquarters" should be renamed to "Power" or something. I'm not native English speaker so I'm sure someone who is can think of a better word. Sample size is not 1, it's 10. The fact that Kumo and Antal are the only power that have any other power wide effect other than Headquarters being in a place stated under the Headquarters title doesn't mean the sample is 1. Sample size would only be 1 if there was just one power or that there was info in other power descriptions that they would have certain things listed under the Headquarters title that would only affect the Headquarters. This is not the case. No effect having no effect is a sample just like some stated effect having an effect is.

Honestly FDev is the only party that can say if it's working the way intended or not but power wide Utopian slavery etc. ban sure fits the lore. I just wanted to point out that the mechanics is the same for all 10 powers (unless Kumo "instability" doesn't work in all Kumo system, would be difficult to test in any case).

... and the bottom line is that Utopia Slavery ban extends to system holding over 144 billion population in total. Some of these systems would have banned slavery anyway of course but the important thing to notice is that the ban is in effect even when the government type would normally allow it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I meant this: "Archon's rule creates a great deal of instability."

No idea what that means in practice but I'd assume that it's pretty much the same than Utopia has for it's control systems, increased influence shifts of minor factions.



I agree the "Headquarters" title is misleading but that doesn't make it a bug. For example right hand panel government types compared to what is shown in system view is confusing as well but still not a bug. "Headquarters" should be renamed to "Power" or something. I'm not native English speaker so I'm sure someone who is can think of a better word. Sample size is not 1, it's 10. The fact that Kumo and Antal are the only power that have any other power wide effect other than Headquarters being in a place stated under the Headquarters title doesn't mean the sample is 1. Sample size would only be 1 if there was just one power or that there was info in other power descriptions that they would have certain things listed under the Headquarters title that would only affect the Headquarters. This is not the case. No effect having no effect is a sample just like some stated effect having an effect is.

Honestly FDev is the only party that can say if it's working the way intended or not but power wide Utopian slavery etc. ban sure fits the lore. I just wanted to point out that the mechanics is the same for all 10 powers (unless Kumo "instability" doesn't work in all Kumo system, would be difficult to test in any case).

... and the bottom line is that Utopia Slavery ban extends to system holding over 144 billion population in total. Some of these systems would have banned slavery anyway of course but the important thing to notice is that the ban is in effect even when the government type would normally allow it.

I've submitted a bug / nag in the bug reporting subforum about this.

 

[Martin Schou]

I agree the "Headquarters" title is misleading but that doesn't make it a bug.

Actually it does. Either Antal bans slavery, narcotics and medicines in all of his systems, which should then be mentioned somewhere (then it's a description bug), or he doesn't and the effect is incorrect.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, considering Antal doubles all fines and bounties against you, and that he is into enforced law and order, it would suggest the text is incorrect.

What would the point be to have this effect in the home system only?

 

[Xargo]

Actually it does. Either Antal bans slavery, narcotics and medicines in all of his systems, which should then be mentioned somewhere (then it's a description bug), or he doesn't and the effect is incorrect.

Ahh ok, I thought we were talking about software bugs (which this is only if FD didn't intend the info listed under the "Headquarters" title to have power wide effect). The ban is mentioned. Under a misleading title but it is mentioned. The game lists info about headquarters and what kind of effect that has for the power under the "Headquarters" title. If you want to call that a description bug, then so be it. In any case there's no false info anywhere and ban mechanics work just fine. It's pretty much the same thing than Overheads not being explained in the power view. I wouldn't call that a bug either.

 

[Martin Schou]

The game lists info about headquarters and what kind of effect that has for the power under the "Headquarters" title.

No it doesn't.

Aisling Duval lists banning Imperial Slaves as well as grater production and consumption of high value goods under Empire, Federation, Independent and Alliance - not under headquarters.

ALD lists Pay out for bounty claims increased by 20% under Control Systems, Empire, Federation, Independent and Alliance - not under headquarters.

Archon Delaine has "Archon's Rule causes a great deal of instability" and then follows up with "security level is halved" for Control Systems, Empire, Federation, Independent and Alliance.

Sirius has "production and consumption of high tech goods is doubled" in Control Systems, Empire, Federation, Independent and Alliance.

Antal is the ONLY power that has this kind of bug - be it a display bug or a marketplace bug.

 

[Xargo]

No it doesn't.

...

Antal is the ONLY power that has this kind of bug - be it a display bug or a marketplace bug.

I don't know why you keep arguing the same point over and over again. I have already agreed that it's misleading how the info is represented and understand you define misleading or missing info as a "display bug" or "description bug", well I don't. Bug is a bug and unclear info is unclear info. We just have to agree to disagree about these definitions.

Some other powers list certain mechanics separately for each major faction like you posted but that doesn't mean it couldn't be listed in a single place instead like in the case of Antal, Kumo and power headquarter locations for all powers. I haven't seen anything listed under any power "Headquarters" title that wouldn't affect the whole power. It's up to FDev to decide if Utopian bans are meant to be power wide or not. I certainly hope they intended the ban to be power wide because it fits the Utopian lore very well and I also hope they will make their descriptions clearer and this is not limited only to this "Headquarters" topic.

 

[Martin Schou]

I certainly hope they intended the ban to be power wide because it fits the Utopian lore very well

It fits the user created lore, but given that he's a dictator, incites violent riots and throws political rivals into gulags to maintain order in his control systems (political prisoners being hauled back to Polevnic), I'm not sure why he would somehow be against slavery outside of his capital.

If it's any consolation, Antal isn't the only one with strange things - the Alliance supposedly bans slavery outright, but Alliance anarchies still have them available, and I wouldn't be surprised if Alliance Dictatorships were fine with Imperial Slaves either. Again, something that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[fergal]

It's up to FDev to decide if Utopian bans are meant to be power wide or not. I certainly hope they intended the ban to be power wide because it fits the Utopian lore very well and I also hope they will make their descriptions clearer and this is not limited only to this "Headquarters" topic.

The way all the Powers Seem to work, except for Antal in this case, is the Control Systems are what is actually being taken over, and only these system align with the ethos of the Power.
Usually the exploited systems are left unchanged, or are effected in the oppose way to the control systems.

Antal cracks down on crime and bans certain products, and black markets in his control systems.
This would tend to increase demand for these banned products in the exploits systems, and the black markets there enjoy a 10% boost in their prices because of this.

I wouldn't think Antal would be banning the drugs, slaves and medicines in all the exploited systems, because its only the Controlled Systems he is actually asserting "control" over.

Aisling has the specific description of banning Imperial slaves in all her exploited systems, but this doesn't actually work for her, and I believe this is a bug, she only bans Imperial Slavery in her Control systems at the moment.

 

[DR_KATTZ]

The salt is strong with this one. While you play semantics, it's clear you deny yourself the truth that those democratic and imperial systems are full of stagnant and corrupt ideologies of the past that enslave people one way or the other. Utopia doesn't apologize for it's treatment of Dissidents because Utopia believes in causality. If you choose your path, you shall meet that path, and sometimes that means processing, other times you shall meet Zaan. We hardly incarcerate or kill people, the vast majority are given SIM therapy™. Utopia at it's core is a arbiter of absolutes, there's no grey comfort zone here, only the path of Utopia and the path of men doomed to repeat history. It's understandable you fear what you don't understand, and somehow create straw-men to throw gasoline at, in order to make you feel better about your denial.

Funny how I read it as being power-wide when I first joined and read about the power. Since I initially wanted to go with the cutie in blue hair, but imps rub me the wrong way, there are no Co-op Imp factions that I am aware of. Growing up on Eris in the Minerva system where Universal Coop, under the guidance of The Council of Discord, keeps the all slaves banned, as well as making Eris a center of technology and development for Star Port construction. I've been long a supporter of the Cooperative style of governance despite the cumbersome nature that sometimes arises from it. I wanted to belong to a power with no hypocritical stances and a focus on science, Utopia fit that bill! As for AD, how can you be a member of the abolition movement and still support the other Imperial Houses/Senators... I feel AD's anti Imp-Slavery bent is merely a publicity stunt to garner some sort of legitimacy for her age. But, that's merely the opinion of this humble Minervan. All in all I feel Utopia is doing more good than any Anti-slavery parties out there.

Free the slaves!
Free everyone's mind from the mundane of living for pure self-interest!
Free yourself from social constructs that serve only the Elite!
FOR UTOPIA!
FOR MANKIND!
HARMONY through technology™!
-Excerpt from Sim publicity materials Vol 1. "The power of ideas."

 

[Martin Schou]

Aisling has the specific description of banning Imperial slaves in all her exploited systems, but this doesn't actually work for her, and I believe this is a bug, she only bans Imperial Slavery in her Control systems at the moment.

Really? I can't find any Aisling stations doesn't have Imperial Slaves on their list of illegal commodities. Can you give an example?

 

[Xargo]

It fits the user created lore, but given that he's a dictator, incites violent riots and throws political rivals into gulags to maintain order in his control systems (political prisoners being hauled back to Polevnic), I'm not sure why he would somehow be against slavery outside of his capital.

First some FD created lore:

“The struggle of men and women to impose order through innovation and understanding is the key to humanity’s ultimate happiness. The advancement of our species towards that inevitable point of peace and prosperity is not only my love, my passion, it is my very reason for being. It is the reason that all of us are here. To make our dreams, and our passions, become a reality.”

“If Utopia is to succeed, we must be driven by our righteous desires, not by our base ones. After all, it is only through mastering ourselves that we can hope to master the worlds around us.”

Your interpretation of the Utopian dictatorship is as valid as anyone's and I actually agree with you to a point. The point being that yes, it's necessary to incite violent riots and haul politics prisoners back to Polevnic for re-education but you didn't mention anything about why. Those quotes I just posted from Galnet explain why. Utopia has to battle corrupt administrations that want to hold to their own agenda and power and not seek common good. It's a base desire of a human being to seek personal gain. Utopia battles that and seeks common good instead. This is also where bans with the lore really well. Once violent protest (successfully) ends, the system is left with a majority of people who embrace Utopian values and seek to make a world a better place. Bans play a very big role here and also explains why governments who normally allow trade of these banned commodities, agree to ban them once they become part of Utopia. This includes exploited systems. Utopian rule is a moral one. Once they see how much better their life is in Utopia, they ban the commodities in question. So in that sense Utopian dictatorship, feudals, imperial patronages and such are not your typical governments but Utopian version of those gov types. Ones that don't allow the abuse of another human being.

Of course there is always a minority who want to maintain their own agenda (seek personal gain, be it slave trading or whatever). Those are the dissidents which are in my opinion indeed political prisoners and yes, they are hauled to Polevnic for re-education, whatever that means. My take is that they are forced to choose between embracing Utopian values through sim technology or death but not everyone agrees with my interpretation here.

But as you mentioned a lot of the Utopian lore is user created but once it makes to Galnet, it becomes an official part of the game lore. In any case I wanted to quote an original piece of Utopian lore by FD to show where we started. In my opinion fellow Utopians have made an amazing work to create a lore that fits the original bits of pieces we were handed pretty seamlessly and big thanks goes to Rubbernuke. These bans in question are big part of the lore that's been published inside the game and once something is part of the game, game mechanics should reflect that (which it does).

Anyway.. the original point was how many slaves are freed by Utopia and the answer is 144 bil+ minus the gov types that would have banned the slavery anyway.

 

[Xargo]

The way all the Powers Seem to work, except for Antal in this case, is the Control Systems are what is actually being taken over, and only these system align with the ethos of the Power.
Usually the exploited systems are left unchanged, or are effected in the oppose way to the control systems.

Antal cracks down on crime and bans certain products, and black markets in his control systems.
This would tend to increase demand for these banned products in the exploits systems, and the black markets there enjoy a 10% boost in their prices because of this.

I wouldn't think Antal would be banning the drugs, slaves and medicines in all the exploited systems, because its only the Controlled Systems he is actually asserting "control" over.

Why would centralized control indicate that exploited systems wouldn't be affected by that rule? The way I see it that when Utopians go collect dissidents, they don't come from just the control system. If they did, the fortification triggers wouldn't be affected by the exploited system but they are. So control system just acts like a centralized administration of the 15ly bubble around it. For the same reason in the case of Utopia the rule is stricter in control systems. Black markets are closed and bounties and fines are 200% instead of 150% they are in exploited systems. This shows that Utopia has diminishing control over the exploited systems compared to control. Meaning there are more dissidents in exploited systems where it's easier for them to avoid Moral Enforcers that would capture them and send them to a nice trip to Polevnic. For the same reason there are black markets in exploited systems. It's impossible to maintain them in control systems. This also explains why black markets pay additional 10%. Certain goods are in high demand by these dissidents who try to oppose Utopia from within and they are willing to pay big money to get what they want.

So my interpretation is that Utopia tries to make these bans effective everywhere but fails to do it 100% by not being able to close black markets in exploited systems due to remaining corrupt dissident influence. So yes, there is slave trade in Utopia in black market but it's a duty of any Utopian to oppose that. As such we have many cmdrs who refuse to do any kind of slave trading, imperial or not. Personally I traded slaves when I was pledged to Hudson at the start of the PP but stopped doing that when I pledged myself to Antal.

 

[Tataboj]

DR_KATTZ Really? Who organised a campaign where everybody could go and free slaves, resulting in milions of liberated slaves? That's right, Princess Aisling Duval did.

 

[DR_KATTZ]

Sorry to burst your bubble Tataboj, but you must've missed the Galnet article pointing out how much Slavers actually made huge profit thanks to that initiative. The whole scheme served to expand the slave trade, not contract it!

 

[Xargo]

Who organised a campaign where everybody could go and free slaves, resulting in milions of liberated slaves? That's right, Princess Aisling Duval did.

It was a valiant effort and step to a right direction for sure. However Imperial Slavery is still legal in Uibuth so all those slaves who were liberated are under a threat of becoming slaves again. Actually technically they are still imperial slaves because they can be bought from commodity market because imperial slavery is not banned there. Aisling could stop this by expanding to Uibuth but it remains to be seen if this final seal will be done or not. I really hope Aisling will expand there.

I hope powers would use their mechanics more to achieve this kind of goals. It's entirely possible.

 

[Lupin]

A bloody good read, giving the feel that commanders really contributing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

From my time writing stories for Utopia / Galnet:

Pranav Antal is indeed a dictator insofar he has a vision for humanity, and will not deviate from that vision or compromise. The nearest analogy is a militant version of Buddhism, with Pranav at its head. 'Pranavs unusual governance' would hint at this as although he dictates the path Utopia walks, it is not based on a selfish desire but a need to move the galaxy away from contemporary problems which meets resistance that provokes instability in systems.

Utopians, like monks, live by a strict code that governs all they do. From lore Pranav Antal demands citizens 'transcend base desires' that would presumably conflict with the Utopian vision. Punishments (fines/ bounties against) are double for Utopians. The Simguru also believes in discipline, thus bounties collected are doubled, (and if a bug was fixed) all NPC wanted ships would be 50 - 100% more lucrative.

Like most religious orders, rebellion against the body is seen as a crime. In Utopia, if you do not tow the line and are a disruptive force you become a dissident and are transported to Polevnic for re-education along with other criminals. This can be anything from counseling to being condemned as a heretic and expelled. Moral Enforcers do this job, maintaining the purity of the Simgurus vision, ensuring vices from outside do not creep in.

Utopians are spiritual: they have a technological afterlife in the form of the Sim Library where recorded experiences and personalities are stored and used to teach others. Each year they upload events to preserve history.

Utopia is dedicated to the advancement of humanity through technology, and openly shares discoveries that improve the standard of living. Places like Antal are vast communes of engineers and scientists dedicated to this task.

The idea of slavery directly conflicts with the above, as ownership would reinforce a base desire that Utopians are trying to fight as they improve themselves.

 

[Tataboj]

It was a valiant effort and step to a right direction for sure. However Imperial Slavery is still legal in Uibuth so all those slaves who were liberated are under a threat of becoming slaves again. Actually technically they are still imperial slaves because they can be bought from commodity market because imperial slavery is not banned there. Aisling could stop this by expanding to Uibuth but it remains to be seen if this final seal will be done or not. I really hope Aisling will expand there.

I hope powers would use their mechanics more to achieve this kind of goals. It's entirely possible.

That's more of a gameplay thing rather than roleplay thing. And Aisling won't expand there for sure, because it is a huge deficit area.

 

[Xargo]

That's more of a gameplay thing rather than roleplay thing. And Aisling won't expand there for sure, because it is a huge deficit area.

Yep, RP systems come with a cost but as said currently Uibuth is a slaver system. It's like gathering stuff for charity without having resources to handle the logistics to actually deliver those stuff to those in need, letting all that good work to spill to the vultures who want all that stuff for themselves (slave traders in this example). Uibuth CG was an epic start of a RP campaign. Now it just needs to be finished by banning slavery in Uibuth. Aisling expanding there is just one example how to do it. Another way that comes into my mind is to get some gov type in power there that would ban slavery.

I honestly hope people who organized the Uibuth CG will finish it by working to get all kinds of slavery banned there. Game mechanics to do that exist, it's just a matter of will but in the current situation the slaves were just relocated, not liberated, yet.