Answer this.

[xondk]

I have seen a number of threads in the past few days regarding PvP crime and punishment and how it can be improved. Massive player groups like Mobius have proven that Open is far from the most popular mode because of PvP, in fact it may be the least popular game mode available. Question is, Why is it so important that we have mandatory, or rather "unavoidable" PvP, and why must it be imposed upon every player in Open?

Well, we don't have a PvP mode, we have an Open mode, the difference between PvP and not PvE in open is player choice. People can easily chose to work together rather then attack, it is up to them.
However this freedom has the issue with those that gladly abuse it, PvP is in 99.9% of all cases mentioned not a problem.
What is a problem? well when a big well armed pirate interdicts a small sized trader? while yes, pirates should exist and do steal from people, why would someone in that big a ship attack that small a target, the possible gain is minimal.
Why would some people interdict and simply blow up the weak targets? there's no gain at all.

However there are so many other possible situations, powerplay, faction warfare what have you, where PvP is fine and all good, where people actually require skill and effort to do and get something, this PvP is what I personally want, however yeah, there's a small amount of people that do not want this, but just want to affect others and preferably at no real risk to themselves...

So it becomes a "This is why we can't have nice things" situation, open is "open" freedom to do what you want to do, and Frontier's rules basically say "just don't be a jerk", however of all the options available well...some people want to be that, but most are not, and by a vast majority, most PvP is not a problem in my eyes.

That also said there are some people that don't want such risks, they don't want to be subject of other people's wills at all, personally I think those people should be playing in private, because that is what it is for, but open, all good, all bad, should remain, with the tweaks coming with a proper consequence system, which really is missing currently and not just in terms of PvP

 

[bamber]

I have seen a number of threads in the past few days regarding PvP crime and punishment and how it can be improved. Massive player groups like Mobius have proven that Open is far from the most popular mode because of PvP, in fact it may be the least popular game mode available. Question is, Why is it so important that we have mandatory, or rather "unavoidable" PvP, and why must it be imposed upon every player in Open?

You need to swap the question around here

I dont want to see pvp imposed on everyone - what I don't want to see is an unworkable rule set imposed on the game that allows a PVE only mode to exist

 

[bladebss]

I play open and some times solo or group if the need takes me.

I play open because I think its more fun. And I like to look my enemy in the eye, heres what I mean: I started off bounty hunting in komovoy, it was an anarchy system with fed, aliance and empire system very close buy to cash in the coresponding bounties. All was good... untill! the out post with a fed faction was getting loads of people trading and handing in bountys to that port, the feds staryed gaining influence and could turn my anarchy paradise into a law bound federaly opressed system. I was not happy!

so what was to be done? I started killing the traders and bounty hunters to try and stop them from raising fed influence. If all these players were in solo or private I would not be able to do a thing but franticaly keep doing mission for the anarchy faction to try and keep up. However it would be a loosing battle and very much a my grind vs there grind. That to me is liniar boring and simple, I prefere dynamic challenging and complex. So I play in open so that I have the opertunity, and so does every one else, to do what need to be done, to step up and make a stand.


there is so much tension in open some times and I love it. When some one else enters my hunting ground.. they migh just go about there business, they might start stealing my kills or attack me to claim the site as there own or they might team up with me. In any other mode it just me and the npc cattle. The fight against time for a bigger bank account, boring! The adrenaline rush or a player encounter that goes nasty is worth 100 hours of lonly res farming or trade grinding.

I dont know why people are so worried about getting killed, yea you loose your ship and some money, you may loose months or exploration data, but in that case it was a risk you chose to take, and one I perhaps wouldnt lol. But its so much fun knowing anything could happen, you could be pirated ypu could be murdered you could make friends you can fight the forces that opose ypur goals and you can defend your interests directly.. with lasers! If you so choose. Or hide in solo for a bit cus the stakes are too high. Thats how I play any way.

I dont know how many people have played the division but they have a aria called the dark zone. It pvp in there and you can steal peoples loot or team up with them, not every one shoots on sight cus you get a flag on you that makes you fair game and tells other players you might not be trustworthy. But if you turn on people at the right moment you can steal all there loot and run! There is other arias of the game where its just you and your friends and no one can hurt you. You grind thrigh missions and kill npcs its fun and challenging at times you get loot there and credits so why go to the dark zone? Well the loot is a bit better but its also about the thrill and risk of it. This is how I see things in elite exept there are all these people who are under the impresion elite was suposed to be fair and safe all the time and wont risk a penny or there hard ground cash for a bit of pride and risk fueld fun.

Take the risk, roll the dice, live! Get some grit in your teeth and feel the revenge!

gamblers: There a far safer and shore ways to make money than gambling so why do it?

gamblers dont gamble for the money, thats just there to make it real, they do it for the thrill!

 

[Zeeman]

...Why is it so important that we have mandatory, or rather "unavoidable" PvP, and why must it be imposed upon every player in Open?

Mandatory?

Really?

Do you spend all your time in Lave or something? In a bubble of thousands of systems, it's incredibly easy to never see another human being...

In fact, I've officially met more people in "deep space" than the bubble. In 18 months, I was griefed once, blown up once in a combat zone by another player, and I took one player down after they fired on me in a RES. It could be argued that I even participated in all of the above on purpose, and I could have easily avoided all of them had I chosen to.

Z...

 

[Ziljan]

One thing we have noted, is that the PvEers play the forum environment (PvFE), they hit that report button when they have been insulted. However, the PvPers prefer to PvP on the forums (FPvP), attacking the insults head on, instead of reporting them. If there is a reason why PvPers suffer more infractions on the forums it might be because of this.

.

I've suspected this. I think the general mentality is that PVPers expect the rules to be enforced automatically because we want to see the world as basically a "fair" place, whereas the PVE crowd is probably used to flagging the parent figure for help. But that is just a guess <shrug>

Since you are familiar with the formula, you should know also that PVE crowd do ceremonially bait and attack the lone PVP (usually 6 vs 1) until the PVP guy goes from polite to defensive and then ultimately loses his stuff. (Which is the last part you seem to be measuring above?) Another way of looking at this PVE group attack post as a whole is a form of cyber bullying. I often point it out when it happens and try to warn the PVP poster if his impending doom, before he goes on the defensive. I like to think I've prevented a few unnecessary bannings this way.

I've recently turned to asking for mod support when things start to get ugly, but the avalanche of PVE mob mentality is strong. Probably too strong for any mod to overcome. Engaging the PVE attackers intellectually usually results in more insults and mindless attacks and defamation. It doesn't matter what we say to them, they just pick out a single sentence out of context and attempt to controvert it as if that is somehow relevant to the discussion.

These forums used to be so nice, and I was proud to be a member here. But now it is a haven for partisan hostility, and having your ideas truly heard is like whispering in a hurricane. The word that comes to mind is "toxic".

Here's the kicker. I am not even a PVP person. I am just a person who thinks that PVP people have a right to exist, and I have been brutally mobbed on these forums for uttering these non-canonical ideas.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

These use forums used to be so nice, and I was proud to be a member here. But now it is a haven for partisan hostility, and having your ideas truly heard is like whispering in a hurricane. The word that comes to mind is "toxic".

Now read your post again.

I'm sorry Ziljan, but after a post that I can only describe as partisan and divisive by trying to generalise both PvE and PvP crowds (PvE as negative as you can make it, PvP as positive as you can make it), this is really delicious irony.

 

[Derath]

I have seen a number of threads in the past few days regarding PvP crime and punishment and how it can be improved. Massive player groups like Mobius have proven that Open is far from the most popular mode because of PvP, in fact it may be the least popular game mode available. Question is, Why is it so important that we have mandatory, or rather "unavoidable" PvP, and why must it be imposed upon every player in Open?

if the mobius population proves that open is far from the most popular mode, their players numbers are pretty sad i'd expect at least several hundred thousand players that dabble from time to time, if 20k represents a huge chunk they really should just be developing a pve mode so they don't need a group at all

 

[TheDayman]

Is this the Solo Vs Open threadnaught 6? No? Oh, hmm...

 

[Ziljan]

Now read your post again.

I'm sorry Ziljan, but after a post that I can only describe as partisan and divisive by trying to generalise both PvE and PvP crowds (PvE as negative as you can make it, PvP as positive as you can make it), this is really delicious irony.

Then you misunderstand my post. I am not describing PVP vs PVE as good vs evil. I am saying that the only PVP crowd people left are the ones that could survive being reported to the mods. Hence they are civil and intelligent enough to exist on these forums. Whereas, the PVE crowd is the typical unwashed and unfiltered mass of humanity (the good bad and the nasty). For reasons why, just read Agonies post above.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Then you misunderstand my post. I am not describing PVP vs PVE as good vs evil. I am saying that the only PVP crowd people left are the ones that could survive being reported to the mods. Hence they are civil and intelligent enough to exist on these forums. Whereas, the PVE crowd is the typical unwashed and unfiltered mass of humanity (the good bad and the nasty). For reasons why, just read Agonies post above.

Rose tinted glasses there.

I have read plenty of posts from both sides of the camp that were harsh / rude / inflamatory / aggressive.

(I am no exception to this - sometimes I loose my cool too - comes with being human and passionate about something )

 

[Cmdr Bazil Yat]

Stay away from the best credit sources like PowerPlay, community goals and trade routes and you are fine.

So... stay away from all the big fun in-game events? Riiight, optimal solution, friend.

 

[specialsymbol]

Because in every game ever made that has PvP as an option, the players who main PvP are always the loudest, angriest and most attention demanding people.

See Star Citizen. A once great concept fallen to the hands of the PvP crowd.

 

[Derath]

See Star Citizen. A once great concept fallen to the hands of the PvP crowd.

that great concept has to actually be finished before its anything first lol

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

For reasons why, just read Agonies post above.

You mean the joke part where he applied PvP and PvE to forum behaviour?

As I often do when I say: I only PvP on the forums?

 

[Ziljan]

Rose tinted glasses there.

I have read plenty of posts from both sides of the camp that were harsh / rude / inflamatory / aggressive.

(I am no exception to this - sometimes I loose my cool too - comes with being human and passionate about something )

Some newer PVP posters can strike a tone of smugness and self confidence. Which is almost indistinguishable from brash arrogance and is usually highly offensive to many PVE people.

Instead of imagining that poster as the "jerk who killed you when you ventured into Open", try to imagine him as the fighter escort who has your back against a wing of pirates. Wouldn't you want someone who was confident and even cocky on your side! .

This how I read these posts, and might be the "rose-tinted glasses" you speak of.

 

[Ziljan]

You mean the joke part where he applied PvP and PvE to forum behaviour?

As I often do when I say: I only PvP on the forums?

Check your inbox. I am not a "PVPer" forum or otherwise. The first and last time I went looking for a fight in Open was last September. Other than that, all of my PVP is pure Aikido, defensive only and non-lethal.

However, I hate to see people getting picked on, or whole game modes being villanized. I also get bored of being attacked by NPC paper tigers. So if I seem to be on the PVP side of the debate, this is why. But if the PVE crowd were on the ropes and being threatened by mobs of unchecked PVP villagers , I'd be just as strongly in the PVEer's corner.

 

[bootsam]

There are no nasty pro PvE posters (disclaimer: ok thats bull, I accept that and declare that it is wrong. There are and maybe Im one, who knows. Its Monday, Im tired and theres no sugar in the tea room). Only PvP posters who will not accept reasoned and articulate debate without resorting to insults. Hence their scarcity. Some indeed are, like Fang. He makes good points and in general I tend to agree with him and where I do not he can at least accept that in good grace. Then there are others who create a facsimile of civility here, yet their actions and posts elsewhere betray them. You too Ziljan are okay, despite not agreeing with you very much. There are several pro pvp whom I can sympathise with entirely. They bought the wrong game and I can sympathise with that to a certain extent.

Basically there are people who are trying to tell me or force me to play a game in a certain way and one which I do not wish to participate in. Well, Ive got news for these people, I dont give a jot what they say or think. 'Play the game your way' supersedes all. My life, my machine, my choice and nothing anyone can say or do can change that. If the game changes to pro pvp, then I leave or just go solo. For a great many of us we did not purchase this game for pvp. We purchased it for pve. We want nothing to do with PvP outside a bit of proper piracy and maybe PP role play. We do not want battlefield space wars.

One thing that will get a fellows dander up, is people attempting to impose their will on me. By forcing through their demands at my expense. PvP shout loudly and I am determined to shout back just as loud. I have no truck with open, its a fair and equal mode. I do not play it and I do not wish to impose my will on those who do. I am in group and I play my way with like-minded individuals. As far as I am concerned pvp is real and valid in open and if you fly there you accept the risk and take the medicine if it comes your way with dignity. I.E. no CL.

I wholly agree that crime and punishment is lacking. Theres a lot to do still to make this game the game it could be and I plan to hang around till the bitter end. But not in open. I do not believe there should be a flag for consent in open, if you are in open then consent is a given. But I am in group and thus my view is irrelevant as I abdicated consent by virtue of moving to group. However there are many playing pve in open who feel differently to me and due to the nature of their more cooperative approach, I'd tend to side with them on matters of consent. As its a play style I favour and I think personally is the best choice for a game of this nature. Thus I would bend to their will as I see it as a more reasoned approach and as they are not adversarial in general, I can go along with it. PvP proponents suffer from their aggressive nature, which makes them good at PvP, however it doesnt quite cut the mustard when discussing matters.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

However, I hate to see people getting picked on, or whole game modes being villanized.

Me too, so please stop trying to typify large groups of diverse players

The only way to deal with what you want to deal with is to address the poster and the argument directly when you notice the sort of behaviour you don't like. You do not pose the issue as 2 camps and attribute characteristics to all players in those camps. You can sense the weakness in your argument when you have to backtrack: "Some newer PVP posters can strike a tone of smugness and self confidence." From the top of my head I could name quite a few old timers who exhibit just this kind of behaviour.

On both sides.

 

[Privata]

Because its a open world sandbox realistic simulation of life in space in the elite universe.
Pirates , killers and insane men/women are part of this universe.

Its part of the game , it ment to be like that.
And I have been playing sins the first beta allmost everyday and I never got ''greifed'' only got attacked a few times here and there and I won all my fights

know what could you have done?
You saw a pip on the radar and your ship was not very good? run , jump away go to another system. maybe come back later.
Allways assume that everyone is hostile

 

[Privata]

There are no nasty pro PvE posters. Only PvP posters who will not accept reasoned and articulate debate without resorting to insults. Hence their scarcity. Some indeed are, like Fang. He makes good points and in general I tend to agree with him and where I do not he can at least accept that in good grace. Then there are others who create a facsimile of civility here, yet their actions and posts elsewhere betray them. You too Ziljan are okay, despite not agreeing with you very much. There are several pro pvp whom I can sympathise with entirely. They bought the wrong game and I can sympathise with that to a certain extent.

Basically there are people who are trying to tell me or force me to play a game in a certain way and one which I do not wish to participate in. Well, Ive got news for these people, I dont give a jot what they say or think. 'Play the game your way' supersedes all. My life, my machine, my choice and nothing anyone can say or do can change that. If the game changes to pro pvp, then I leave or just go solo. For a great many of us we did not purchase this game for pvp. We purchased it for pve. We want nothing to do with PvP outside a bit of proper piracy and maybe PP role play. We do not want battlefield space wars.

One thing that will get a fellows dander up, is people attempting to impose their will on me. By forcing through their demands at my expense. PvP shout loudly and I am determined to shout back just as loud. I have no truck with open, its a fair and equal mode. I do not play it and I do not wish to impose my will on those who do. I am in group and I play my way with like-minded individuals. As far as I am concerned pvp is real and valid in open and if you fly there you accept the risk and take the medicine if it comes your way with dignity. I.E. no CL.

I wholly agree that crime and punishment is lacking. Theres a lot to do still to make this game the game it could be and I plan to hang around till the bitter end. But not in open. I do not believe there should be a flag for consent in open, if you are in open then consent is a given. But I am in group and thus my view is irrelevant as I abdicated consent by virtue of moving to group. However there are many playing pve in open who feel differently to me and due to the nature of their more cooperative approach, I'd tend to side with them on matters of consent. As its a play style I favour and I think personally is the best choice for a game of this nature. Thus I would bend to their will as I see it as a more reasoned approach and as they are not adversarial in general, I can go along with it. PvP proponents suffer from their aggressive nature, which makes them good at PvP, however it doesnt quite cut the mustard when discussing matters.

I dont agree , I think that both sides can be nasty. however most of the time the PvE audiance seems to call the PvP audiance idiots and children (same thing I guess?)
I dont have a side I have what ever is Fds rule set and currently its in Open everything goes as long as there is no hacks or actual greif (insult another player about IRL stuff or ruin his game by causing real harm so more than just blowing up an internet spaceship)