The Star Citizen Thread

[Styggron]

Cheers Viking, thanks for that. Some rep for you

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Actually the crew proposal went through the DDF a while back

My reading of that thread was that Frontier wanted to make crew a smallish feature of the initial release and look at expanding it down the road, but the discussion lead more towards a placeholder implementation in version 1 and combining it with other persistent NPCs down the road.

This might actually be an interesting difference between SC and ED - SC is primarily about interacting with individual humans (larger scale stuff can be built up later), whereas ED focuses first on interacting with whole populations (finer detail stuff can be filled in later).

I have to ask since the whole 'clutter' dynamic is one of the big attention to detail points in SC. But when are you guys going to start modelling sensor clutter that interferes with sensors and players losing sensor locks when a target jinks behind debris, asteroids, or other objects in space. So far what I've seen is sensors having the ability to see through solid objects which is not realistic at all. I know targeted ships can go cold if they want which is kewl. But sensors seeing through large solid objects? That's really a no joy there, Batman.

BSGO played it lazy like that only they also ran with the ability for guns and missiles to fire through solid objects as well. I'm hoping for better from E than that.

Mutiny and A.I! with personalities/profile. Dynamic A.I is key

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2352520/#Comment_2352520

Such details for the AI would be awesome. As Cabbage already knows, I want the SC AI team to look at modelling the affect of body mass, gear/weapons mass, fatigue, health, and injures into how capable an AI/NPC is and how well it will perform. One of the worst things about SC is that it is trying to cater to the modern gaming kids also. That side has no experience with simulations, entities, and how fun realism is. Because they come from a genre where AI was never seen as worthy and as such was never really worked on, they only see AI in one shade, dark and empty. All an elite AI is to them is a bot set to maximum accuracy, or something to be farmed for experience points or a bounty. They need to change that image of AI.

I think an NPC that like a human, has to contend with their environment and how it effects them would be a huge step towards ending the stigma. I mean they call them pets on the SC site which to me is not something you want because whether people notice it or not, during reviews they do still rate a game's AI. I think a gaming review that either badmouths the game's AI or just doesn't say anything at all about it, is missing quite a few cylinders in its engine, and as such not going to make it to greatness.

 

[Cabbage_Head]

Such details for the AI would be awesome. As Cabbage already knows, I want the SC AI team to look at modelling the affect of body mass, gear/weapons mass, fatigue, health, and injures into how capable an AI/NPC is and how well it will perform. One of the worst things about SC is that it is trying to cater to the modern gaming kids also. That side has no experience with simulations, entities, and how fun realism is. Because they come from a genre where AI was never seen as worthy and as such was never really worked on, they only see AI in one shade, dark and empty. All an elite AI is to them is a bot set to maximum accuracy, or something to be farmed for experience points or a bounty. They need to change that image of AI.

I think an NPC that like a human, has to contend with their environment and how it effects them would be a huge step towards ending the stigma. I mean they call them pets on the SC site which to me is not something you want because whether people notice it or not, during reviews they do still rate a game's AI. I think a gaming review that either badmouths the game's AI or just doesn't say anything at all about it, is missing quite a few cylinders in its engine, and as such not going to make it to greatness.

For sure, I'm just happy that their might be a possibility of having non , static, dull and lifeless. A.I and NPC in a MMO or Online game for once. Artificial game life that actually, have their own daily routine's that matter to them, personalities or traits that change over time and having npc's buy & sell things well making a true living and do things and react naturally to different situations. All of which mind you. Has been possible for at least 5 years now or earlier in some form or another. Yet more then enough big studios and the like have been dumbing down their A.I for impractical reasons in my mind at least. More so in online games as i mentioned though its been creeping into single player experiences with Titanfall especially.

(to cater to a certain group, because its to "Hard")

Cool examples:

Half Life showed people how to do it and that its possible.

Fear showed people how to do it and that its possible.

Halo showed people how to do it and that its possible.

and a few others. Made it clear that you can have great A.I in your game. Without having to cater. Though that was ignored for the most part. Until Demon souls and Dark souls. Put a fire under developers butts to make better/smarter and more challenging A.I. Now its Star Citizen turn and EQN for the most part. Given they are both using middle ware.

I hope A.I can do complex task, do remedial task, from big to small and in between. They should be effected and affected by the environment and the world they live in. They should react logically and illogical. But should also be able to fail and win , they can't be prefect entities, and they should know the limits of their body and want to do when put into a life or death situations. Base on their own personalities and their unique voices. All of that dynamically and in real time.

That would be a fantastic thing to see. With the level of graphics and visuals never before seen in space sim and inside a MMO. To have amazing A.I that works almost flawlessly to boot, this game would/could set the bar very very HIGH. An hopefully the Mooncolider guys with their Kythera tech are up to the task at hand. So they can provide that level of detail at some point either in the next year or the year after that. Since Kythera will be improving with the game, which is another great bonus with this partnership.

Shoot this might even mean , that i can actually or it will be at such a level that i will feel bad enough about losing a npc companion or other to never want to lose one again. Or even stop myself from killing or capturing some one for multiple reasons other then it being an objective. Which could mean that such a moment could be totally unique to me. Something not everyone will experience the same exact thing.

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Also tieing in very nicely with that....

CIG is working on a robust conversation system that does away with the standard of use/trend. Of Elder scrolls or Mass effect's or other check boxes or good or bad conversation systems and morality system.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2351769/#Comment_2351769

MBarclay_CIG

Heliostrike

Howdy Foundry 42,

As much as I love the Mass Effect trilogy, it always bothered me that we could 'have our cake and eat it too' when we were playing as a good guy picking the blue paragon dialogue options. This happened during critical mission choices and dealing with your companions. I find it's usually a lot more interesting if there's a real downside to your decisions that we choose anyway because we personally feel is the 'right thing' to do.

What sort of decisions will we have the opportunity to make during SQ42? Will these happen organically through the mission objectives that we accomplish or as a result of dialogue options?

Cheers lads,
Tarrok

Hey Tarrok!

Great question, I'm glad to see people as interested in "morality" systems in games as I am!

While we can't share much at the moment, I will say I definitely know where you're coming from. We have plans for your choices to be an interesting part of crafting Your story. Your decisions, Your consequences to deal with!

Personally I like when a choice comes down to different shades of grey and really makes me consider the potential outcome. I'm certain we'll find the design that suits the game best.

Cheers Tarrok!

DTimms_CIG

Dago

Going off of this, i'm wondering if perhaps there will be different shades of grey regarding interaction with any character in SQ42, regardless of if they are your wing men or are human or not.

Battlestar Galactica for example in my opinion is one of the greatest series of all time because nothing was purely clear in the series. There was no obvious path, no obvious reason to why the bad guys were bad. It was quite murky and grey, not so crystal clear and absolute which makes the viewer think a lot. On the other hand you have the Star Wars prequels, where the plot is so black and white that you know exactly why the bad guys are bad, yet it doesn't make much sense.

What i'm asking is will there be questionable options done in relation to the Vanduul or other enemies you encounter in the game? Or will it just be in relation to Wingmen or Allies?

Hi Dago,

I'm currently responsible (along with several others) for the Conversation System which includes all interactions with wingmen and NPC's in-between missions. I can tell you that the plan is to have fairly nuanced relationships with a lot of the people you will encounter in the campaign. We're very keen to not just have a 'good or bad' option when it comes to these relationships, and we don't necessarily want a conversation to be easily readable as to what is the 'right' thing to say or do.

Just like real-life™, sometimes what someone needs to grow as a person is not just praise and kind words, everyone is different and has stuff going on in their life that influence their moods and reactions to others.
We are trying our best to design a system that encapsulates the subtleties of a personal relationship with someone, which will hopefully add an unprecedented amount of depth into the fellow pilots and crew that you will spend many a hard time with over the course of the campaign!

Hope that helps,
Daz

If they get this right and it actually improves or they create something almost completely new. In relation to how to talk and interact with npc's. Then we are going to get a very good game that is pushing boundaries on all fronts in a positive way.


So I'm optimistic to say the least.

 

[Viking]

Yeah, the conversation system in SC will be interesting. One thing they'll put in is that when you talk to someone eye to eye, then looks away to something else in the middle of the talking, it'll affect the other's mood. Because it's rude, of course.

Cheers Viking, thanks for that. Some rep for you

Thanks!

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Cabbage,

Hey Bro, I know what would be the one simulation that would make both SC and ED seem like child's play, and would be the greatest computer game ever created. A game developed by both CR and DB.

Just imagine such a program like 6 years from now. The game would have some so called secret code name and would be under the name Joint Forces Productions. The project would be led by both CR and DB, and broken down as follows:


DB/Frontier - Galaxy Design and Procedural Generation of Star Systems, Planets, and Cities.

CR/CIG/CGBOT - Spaceship Design, Storyline, and Economy Engine Development

DB/Frontier and CR/CIG - Faction/Culture Development

Crytek - Development of Title under New Cryengine 5 (Environment Size 150% larger than Cryengine 4)

OculusVR - Oculus Sixth Sense Development Middleware Team

Moon Collider - Kythera 2 Middileware for AI/NPC development and support.

Bohemia Interactive - Total War Engine Development (Strategic/Operational/Tactical Operations)

Political Engine Generator - TBD/Hiring

Air/Space Flightmodels - TBD/Hiring

Weapons Systems/Platforms - TBD/Hiring

Physics Engine Development - TBD/Hiring

Server and Netcode Design and Development - TBD/Hiring


I used to have an idea of who could fill in the other teams but I've been up for like 19 hours now and cant remember. Anyway can you imagine what a game like that would look like not just because it was led by DB and CR, but also with all those professional teams working together. You'd probably need a 4 SLI watercooled system to run it but, six years from now the average system would probably have dual NVIDIA 990s while the enthusiast types are running NVIDIA 1060s-1080s version cards.

Oh but to dream...or would we be awake and not even know it? All jacked in and lost in all those pretty pixels.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

when are you guys going to start modelling sensor clutter that interferes with sensors and players losing sensor locks when a target jinks behind debris, asteroids, or other objects in space.

I seem to remember the devs muttering positively about the principle of hiding behind stuff - as you say, it fits well with the stealth mechanic. But I haven't seen anything concrete, so it might not happen. Then again Frontier like to throw this sort of thing at us with no warning, so it could just as easily pop up unannounced in alpha 4.

Having said that, plenty of real-world particles go through physical objects (X-rays for example), so it's not as high up my wish list as e.g. the plausible AI you alluded to elsewhere in your post.

 

[Styggron]

Does SC have Stealth Mechanics bar one of the specialised ships ? Sorry I'm not in the loop as much with SC I thought some people on this thread might know more.

 

[Viking]

Does SC have Stealth Mechanics bar one of the specialised ships ?

Currently there's one stealth ship model - the F7C-S Hornet Ghost - but it's nothing special about it, really, other than it has been equipped with stealth properties. It's just the first standard stealth model released, so far.

In SC you can equip almost any ship as a stealth ship by replacing parts to make it stealthier. It's about making your ship's heat & signal signature as little as possible by choosing a more suited/lesser engine, more effective/smaller power module, weaker shields, use ballistic weapons instead of lasers, better/longer engine nossles, radar absorbing hull, and black skin (less visibility for the naked eye). These are the stealth factors I can remember right now, anyway.

So these parts will be available in all shapes and sizes for most ships.

The same goes for other types of ships - there are special parts made to make your ship more powerful, a better explorer, a better trader, miner, etc. So there'll be special long range scanners, better aviation computers, mining lasers, tractor beams, extra missile racks, etc.

Basically, you can build your ship like you want, from a basic frame.

In addition, many of the parts can be tuned (like overclocking your PC).

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

I seem to remember the devs muttering positively about the principle of hiding behind stuff - as you say, it fits well with the stealth mechanic. But I haven't seen anything concrete, so it might not happen. Then again Frontier like to throw this sort of thing at us with no warning, so it could just as easily pop up unannounced in alpha 4.

Having said that, plenty of real-world particles go through physical objects (X-rays for example), so it's not as high up my wish list as e.g. the plausible AI you alluded to elsewhere in your post.

Thanks for getting back to me on this, I really appreciate it. As for the stealth mechanic, using clutter to mask your signature and hide isn't a stealth mechanic. It is simply just hiding behind cover like you would if you were trying to evade, or if you were planning to ambush someone. Unlike stealth you can't hide out in the open, there is a trade off. That tradeoff being that at the same time you may not be able to see your target/pursuer. So a pilot has to know what they are doing or potentially end up paying for it.

On the AI, depending upon how well an environment is modeled, you can really enhance the feel of NPCs. Given the fact that PG to this day is seen as DB's world, if he was to create planetside based combat, the use of different or similar gravities on the various planets could be a pretty big thing for ED or SC is they were to really go in depth. Depending upon the cultures involved in a ground fight, one could end up with a slight advantage over another if one side's world has a stronger gravitational pull than the others. Weapons and physical abilities would change depending on the planet they were on.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Currently there's one stealth ship model - the F7C-S Hornet Ghost - but it's nothing special about it, really, other than it has been equipped with stealth properties. It's just the first standard stealth model released, so far.

In SC you can equip almost any ship as a stealth ship by replacing parts to make it stealthier. It's about making your ship's heat & signal signature as little as possible by choosing a more suited/lesser engine, more effective/smaller power module, weaker shields, use ballistic weapons instead of lasers, better/longer engine nossles, radar absorbing hull, and black skin (less visibility for the naked eye). These are the stealth factors I can remember right now, anyway.

So these parts will be available in all shapes and sizes for most ships.

The same goes for other types of ships - there are special parts made to make your ship more powerful, a better explorer, a better trader, miner, etc. So there'll be special long range scanners, better aviation computers, mining lasers, tractor beams, extra missile racks, etc.

Basically, you can build your ship like you want, from a basic frame.

In addition, many of the parts can be tuned (like overclocking your PC).

See that is a major problem in my book, they should really focus on doing some serious work on any stealth version of ships. So in other words not only would it come to the armor in use, but also the shape of the ship should be thought out. A buddy and I have been talking about it and for stealth ships there should be clear design details used for any ship with a stealth designation added to it. If the designated ship is going to be more stealthy than someone using Void armor and lower emitting systems, make it obvious what it is.

 

[Viking]

See that is a major problem in my book, they should really focus on doing some serious work on any stealth version of ships. So in other words not only would it come to the armor in use, but also the shape of the ship should be thought out.

It is serious work. The result is a stealth ship and that's what matters in the end. It wouldn't be more stealthy if the shape was different. If you don't like the Hornet's shape, then you can make a stealth version of one of the other ships instead.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

It is serious work. The result is a stealth ship and that's what matters in the end. It wouldn't be more stealthy if the shape was different. If you don't like the Hornet's shape, then you can make a stealth version of one of the other ships instead.

Not saying I don't like the shape of the Hornet, but again it is the shape of a Hornet. I think they should look at ship and role diversity. Besides, we all know there are going to be people out there trying to dogfight in the Ghost, when dogfighting is just going to reduce the whole stealth effect anyway. I just think there can be a better design for the stealth variant. Something that says stealth variant and not just water coloring the outside of the ship. LOL! I wonder what the avionic and tracking systems are going to be like on the the F7C-S?

What I really want to see is the concept art for the Drake Herald.

 

[Viking]

I just think there can be a better design for the stealth variant. Something that says stealth variant and not just water coloring the outside of the ship. LOL!

Not sure what you mean. The Ghost is a stealth variant, and not just on the outside of the ship. Its primary role is infiltration.

From the ad: "The Hornet Ghost is a stealth-oriented craft designed to have a low radar signature; when you’re flying a Ghost, your opponents won’t know what hit them!"

Ship specs: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/ship-specs
See also: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13329-Introducing-The-Anvil-Hornet-Lineup (with PDF brochure)

What I really want to see is the concept art for the Drake Herald.

Me too.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Not sure what you mean. The Ghost is a stealth variant, and not just on the outside of the ship. Its primary role is infiltration.

From the ad: "The Hornet Ghost is a stealth-oriented craft designed to have a low radar signature; when you’re flying a Ghost, your opponents won’t know what hit them!"

We haven't even started Alpha yet and that phrase alone is enough to cause all sorts of problems on the SC website. Like literally people are crying foul at the mere mention that someone can get close to them undetected. Regardless of the fact that it has been done in real life, if it is ever done in the sim, those people are going to cry that the F7c-S is overpowered. And don't get me started about how the 3PV group feel about it. If they get to do 3PV it won't be a problem for them.

Oh with regard to the F7C-S ship, I see it like I do the F-22. Not as stealthy as the old F-117s were. And we all know how well the F22s and F35s did in that simulation a year ago, yikes!

 

[Viking]

We haven't even started Alpha yet and that that phrase alone is enough to cause all sorts of problems on the SC website. Like literally people are crying foul at the mere mention that they someone can get close to the undetected.

What problems? Who's crying foul? I'm sorry, but I haven't seen it. Then again I don't read the forums much anymore. Besides, I wouldn't concern myself with any cries from people about this. Many things about SC is new to gamers. Other games they've played before has been simpler and more predictable, maybe.

Strategy and tactics, and counter measures to these, are part of the game. It's how CR want it to be. One side fly a stealth ship, the other side takes steps to counter act and neutralize its power. Perhaps better alien tech scanners, traps, or spies on the other side. I don't see anything wrong with this.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

What problems? Who's crying foul? I'm sorry, but I haven't seen it. Then again I don't read the forums much anymore. Besides, I wouldn't concern myself with any cries from people about this. Many things about SC is new to gamers. Other games they've played before has been simpler and more predictable, maybe.

Strategy and tactics, and counter measures to these, are part of the game. It's how CR want it to be. One side fly a stealth ship, the other side takes steps to counter act and neutralize its power. Perhaps better alien tech scanners, traps, or spies on the other side. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Oh yeah, it happened in the mix with the 3PV argument. People apparently believe that while stealth should get you close to a target (Short range missile range I'm guessing) it should never get you so close that you can get right up next to them and wave. The words they threw up were 'Cloak' and 'invisible' I believe. They feel that at some point your sensors should report you, even if you are running 'clean' with no external weapons. I don't understand that talk at all.

You are right about the level of inexperience with a lot of the crowd coming into SC. They are used to things being a lot more simple and predictable (Funny I just looked back to make sure I finished addressing your response and then saw that without thinking about it I used simple and predictable as a description as well.). I'm really just waiting to see how many start going on about how unforgiving SC is in their eyes, and how it needs to be relaxed or it won't be fun. The so called rules of fun/cool are stunting the growth of computer gaming.

I don't see anything wrong with a lot of what CR has planned for SC. I just hope he doesn't get too caught up in what the 'Masses' start to cry for. I think it is time for them to leave the cradle of modern gaming and try to grow within the higher levels of PC gaming. (No not trying to come off Elitist.)

The pilots in ED seem to have a stronger spirit and more heart for challenge than a lot of the SC kids.

 

[ianw]

Very good stuff in the latest JumpPoint about the hud and cargo.

Looks like they are really packing a lot of info into the hud - be interesting to see it in action.

 

[Viking]

Some interesting new info about the DFM in Arena Commander Weekly Report - April 21-25. This seems to be a new section with weekly updates, similar to the Monthly Report which we have two of so far.

Monthly Report: February 2014
Monthly Report: March 2014

And the Monthly Report for April should arrive on Thursday!

A friend of mine notified me of a thread on the RSI forums which forwards some disturbing news from a german magazine about the release schedule for Star Citizen. If this is true, it means at least a whole extra year of delay ... nearer to 1.5 years.

Arena Commander - April/May
FPS Module - June
Arena Commander 2 - August - Gamescom
Arena Commander 3 - Winter 2014/15
Planetside Modul - Spring 2015
First 10 Missions SQ42 - March 2015
Next 10 Mission - June 2015
PU Alpha with 2 Locations first - then 10 - Winter 2015
Beta - Mid 2016
Release PU - End 2016

 

[drbosnovich]

Some interesting new info about the DFM in Arena Commander Weekly Report - April 21-25. This seems to be a new section with weekly updates, similar to the Monthly Report which we have two of so far.

Monthly Report: February 2014
Monthly Report: March 2014

And the Monthly Report for April should arrive on Thursday!

A friend of mine notified me of a thread on the RSI forums which forwards some disturbing news from a german magazine about the release schedule for Star Citizen. If this is true, it means at least a whole extra year of delay ... nearer to 1.5 years.

Arena Commander - April/May
FPS Module - June
Arena Commander 2 - August - Gamescom
Arena Commander 3 - Winter 2014/15
Planetside Modul - Spring 2015
First 10 Missions SQ42 - March 2015
Next 10 Mission - June 2015
PU Alpha with 2 Locations first - then 10 - Winter 2015
Beta - Mid 2016
Release PU - End 2016

I'm amazed that anyone still thinks that 2015 is on the cards for the PU; or that anything more optimistic than the schedule above is still possible.

While the timing of the longer term goals will of course be very speculative right now, my personal view is that some of the shorter term ones are a little on the optimistic side. FPS by june and DFM 2 by August I would be very surprised to see happen. I think CR said about DFM 2 that 'we're looking probably after gamescon' or something to that effect at PAX. To me that says sept-oct or later, given the rate of development and how the goals of the project have expanded as the budget has increased.

 

[Viking]

I'm amazed that anyone still thinks that 2015 is on the cards for the PU; or that anything more optimistic than the schedule above is still possible.

Well, until that german mag. published this news, I got my information about the schedule from CR himself. Do you mean I shouldn't have believed what he said? IMO that'd be amazing.