(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[GluttonyFang]

Claiming that playing in open will somehow "cripple" a player is a massive exaggeration.

Since December, if I'm doing powerplay, I've done it in open. I have been "crippled," hindered, obstructed, exactly zero times in doing so. I lost a ship once after making deliveries, returning home and was caught off guard. But since it was after I had completed my power-playing, I don't consider it to have hindered by doing so.

Sandro wants to buff the influence your actions have on your Power in Open, meaning that it doesn't entirely hinge on your personal reward (fun, and for some people this fun is their power doing well), and the Power's well-being and the ability to be just as much of help to an individual's Power in Open as one may in Private and Solo.

For now it probably is, we'll have to wait and see where/how clear that line ends up in the future.

Well, if they do something silly, we'll probably be fighting on the same side.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Right...

Which means you're not arguing against me.

I am emphasising the element of choice available to players - choice that may affect player's earning rate.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'm inclined to disagree. A competitive environment has to provide a framework. That's all.
When I was 15 and into chess, I could have beaten any reigning world champion in chess in his 50ies by not making a move and waiting until he passes away. The framework has to make sure I only have a "fair" amount of time for a move (there were "letter chess" rules that allowed you weeks for your next move ^^ ). Not that his and my IQ are equal.
And nowadays, no human has won a chess match against a halfwit chess computer in a pretty long time. So much for "human competition being harder to beat".

I think I begin to understand why you gave up preaching reason.

The rules/mechanics are suppose to ensure that you and your opponent are competing fairly, meaning if some of your pieces move at random and only in a detrimental way (Open mode), and your opponent has complete control over his pieces (Solo/Private), then there is clearly something wrong.

As for your analogy to human's intelligence against AI, I hate to say this to hurt Sarah's feelings, but can you really look at me with a straight face and tell me the NPCs are challenging in comparison to combative PvP players?

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I am emphasising the element of choice available to players - choice that may affect player's earning rate.

And the earning rate should be appropriate to the choice of environment players pick in a competitive setting.

 

[R3DB3RD]

Go ahead. Buff open. Make the divide between open and solo/group play larger.
In return, make all future paid expansions cheaper, discounted or even free for solo/group players.
The reality is there's a huge disparity between pvper's and open play and solo/group PVE with voluntary and consenting pvp.
The two playstyles can not work together in the same arena.
Players that hop between the modes do so to make a clear advantage for their open game. Pvper's are their own worst enemy.
'youre lame and your skills are poo, go to solo and leave us alone... Omfgbbqwtf where haz all our emergent Gameplay gone we needz moor incentivez'

Players that choose solo/group play as their primary game mode, don't swop modes. They play in solo or group. Period.

The community is divided and the arguments are circular to the point of Escher designed Nine levels of continuous Hell.

FD:Time to choose your target audience and stop pandering.

 

[GilliganTX]

Sandro wants to buff the influence your actions have on your Power in Open, meaning that it doesn't entirely hinge on your personal reward (fun, and for some people this fun is their power doing well), and the Power's well-being and the ability to be just as much of help to an individual's Power in Open as one may in Private and Solo.

I think that because I have not been hindered in my actions in PP in open, and because of the fact that 75% of the time I spent doing it was undermining with a wing, my actions already had more of an affect than if I would have undertaken them in Solo because I would not have had wingmates interdicting targets to speed up how fast we were collecting merits, as well as the multiplicative effect of having four CMDRs collect equal merits for a single kill.

Well, if they do something silly, we'll probably be fighting on the same side.

That doesn't sound as entertaining.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And the earning rate should be appropriate to the choice of environment players pick in a competitive setting.

I doubt that can reasonably be the case for all choices of environment - especially when player density is taken into consideration.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I think that because I have not been hindered in my actions in PP in open, and because of the fact that 75% of the time I spent doing it was undermining with a wing, my actions already had more of an affect than if I would have undertaken them in Solo because I would not have had wingmates interdicting targets to speed up how fast we were collecting merits, as well as the multiplicative effect of having four CMDRs collect equal merits for a single kill.

The issue with that is if wing mate interdict separate targets, they have to wait for each other to drop in on them to at least land a shot. In that sense, doing it by oneself if anything saves more time trying to get into one another's wake even with the beacon.

How to satisfy a player's mode preference without taxing one's contribution to a Power is the question Sandro's most likely trying to answer.

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I doubt that can reasonably be the case for all choices of environment - especially when player density is taken into consideration.

This unequal density distribution for PP is caused precisely by the way PP is implemented, which Sandro aims to rectify.

 

[Robert Maynard]

This unequal density distribution for PP is caused precisely by the way PP is implemented, which Sandro aims to rectify.

It will be interesting to see how high the OPSB will need to be* to encourage enough players into Open to be judged "sufficient" in terms of the aim of this change.

*: acknowledging that Sandro has indicated that a 2:1 ratio is one possibility.

 

[GilliganTX]

The issue with that is if wing mate interdict separate targets, they have to wait for each other to drop in on them to at least land a shot. In that sense, doing it by oneself if anything saves more time trying to get into one another's wake even with the beacon.

How to satisfy a player's mode preference without taxing one's contribution to a Power is the question Sandro's most likely trying to answer.

We're not Newbs, man. LOL. I've undermined solo plenty in the past. I do it in groups now because it is much, much faster when you put some thought into how you do it with a wing.

EDIT: But yes, the possibility is there, but it's also possible to greatly expedite your merit-earning-power.

 

[GluttonyFang]

It will be interesting to see how high the OPSB will need to be* to encourage enough players into Open to be judged "sufficient" in terms of the aim of this change.

*: acknowledging that Sandro has indicated that a 2:1 ratio is one possibility.

And it should be adjusted appropriately according to FD's statistics which we don't have access to.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And it should be adjusted appropriately according to FD's statistics which we don't have access to.

Appropriately in terms of equity or appropriately in terms of increased population in Open?

 

[GluttonyFang]

We're not Newbs, man. LOL. I've undermined solo plenty in the past. I do it in groups now because it is much, much faster when you put some thought into how you do it with a wing.

I've done both, and I really came to the conclusion that I do it faster myself. Go in, boil things up, get out, rinse and repeat.

I know how people do player A interdict, player B drops in, then Player B interdict, then player A drops in, rinse and repeat. But the time to close in on the distance is quite wasted from my experience.

EDIT: But yes, the possibility is there, but it's also possible to greatly expedite your merit-earning-power.

Well, not sure about greatly expedite as I've just explained. Not to mention that undermining isn't everything, and if anything fortification and expansions are key to the survival of a Power. (except the indie powers)

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Appropriately in terms of equity or appropriately in terms of increased population in Open?

In terms of PP activities and sustained duration in Open between completed activities.

Population increase in Open might be a result from this change, but what is important is activities being completed in Open being a sensible choice again.

 

[Robert Maynard]

In terms of PP activities and sustained duration in Open between completed activities.

Population increase in Open might be a result from this change, but what is important is activities being completed in Open being a sensible choice again.

Specific merit delivery rates have, I expect, been calculated for the three different modes - however they are averages - not all players will manage to deliver as many merits as they would have been able to, in the same time, in a mode other than Open - it depends on whether or not opposing players are encountered (which is by no means guaranteed) - and, of course, some will probably be able to deliver just as many.

 

[Mohrgan]

It begs the question; Why? Why is making open the sensible choice important? Why can't Solo be the go to mode? Save the competitive scope spin.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Specific merit delivery rates have, I expect, been calculated for the three different modes - however they are averages - not all players will manage to deliver as many merits as they would have been able to, in the same time, in a mode other than Open - it depends on whether or not opposing players are encountered (which is by no means guaranteed) - and, of course, some will probably be able to deliver just as many.

Show me that math every step of the way.

Open Mode outfit maximize cargo, say 200

Solo mode outfit maximize cargo, 200, too.

Same threat posed by NPC by both

Open has to deal with potential player opposition.

What math can override that?

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It is not rational to consider one of the other modes just as important as another? How did that become irrational?

...

Precisely because Open is just as important, it's being reimbursed for the rational incentives to enter private and solo under the competitive scope.

You made this argument over and over and I repeatedly showed how irrational your arguments have been, now you just avoid the argument all together now? What?

 

[Mohrgan]

Show me that math every step of the way.

Open Mode outfit maximize cargo, say 200

Solo mode outfit maximize cargo, 200, too.

Same threat posed by NPC by both

Open has to deal with potential player opposition.

What math can override that?

Then pay the player in open for the player opposition. Not the threat of opposition. Have a PP influence payout for PP aligned PvP.

 

[GilliganTX]

I've done both, and I really came to the conclusion that I do it faster myself. Go in, boil things up, get out, rinse and repeat.

I know how people do player A interdict, player B drops in, then Player B interdict, then player A drops in, rinse and repeat. But the time to close in on the distance is quite wasted from my experience.

I was speaking not just in terms of personal merit accumulation, but accumulation of total merits [Since, solo or wing, the ship is often dead before the FSD cools down].One kill is 30 or 40 merits, instead of 10, but I guess I'm not including for the possibility of those other ships also undermining in solo were I to do so. Hm.

Who knows.

Anecdotal accounts are anecdotal.

Well, not sure about greatly expedite as I've just explained. Not to mention that undermining isn't everything, and if anything fortification and expansions are key to the survival of a Power. (except the indie powers)

Right, Fortification/Preparation can only be hindered by other players, and there is no tangible benefit to doing it cooperatively (wing) either. No reason to do it in open.

Expansions are much better in a wing, but I don't remember the last time I hit up a military strike so I don't have much to say about it.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Then pay the player in open for the player opposition. Not the threat of opposition. Have a PP influence payout for PP aligned PvP.

Omg...

How many times do I have to tell you this, READ MY PROPOSAL AND STOP LYING ABOUT PRETENDING TO HAVE READ IT

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238428

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Expansions are much better in a wing, but I don't remember the last time I hit up a military strike so I don't have much to say about it.

I explained how wing tend to eat up small targets too fast. And a solo player pace just right for there always to be small targets.

 

[Mohrgan]

Omg...

How many times do I have to tell you this, READ MY PROPOSAL AND STOP LYING ABOUT PRETENDING TO HAVE READ IT

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238428

I have. But in this thread, and on this topic you insist on a bribe, rather than a reward. Call for the reward here and we're good. Stop defending an across the board bonus with fuzzy math, in favor of supporting a risk rewarded. Ten merits to the winner, 5 merits to the looser, and no one looses merits in defeat. In the case of wings, for every win your team gets, everyone gets 10, for every loss your team suffers you get 5. Problem solved.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I have. But in this thread, and on this topic you insist on a bribe, rather than a reward. Call for the reward here and we're good. Stop defending an across the board bonus with fuzzy math, in favor of supporting a risk rewarded.

Point out where I've insisted on a bribe, I want to see, where have I explicitly said I intend to bribe, point it out, words are cheap.

What counts as "win" or "lose" in your idea? Ship destruction? Because if that's the case, no one's going to waste time blowing each other up for 5/10 merits.

What if people farm by blowing up cheap ships?

Don't just throw ideas and numbers out without giving them thoughts.