I do hope Season 2 helps Piracy - Today's experience just confirms to me it doesn't work very well...

[NeilF]

I do hope Season 2 helps Piracy - Today's experience just confirms to me it doesn't work very well...

So I thought I'd drop a couple of loads of Land Enrichment units off to Vennik today to kill 20mins...

As I was flying towards Nixon Enterprise station, I was interdicted by a CMDR who I could see was wanted, oh dear a pirate or griefer?

I submitted to the interdiction, so as to allow myself a quicker FSD cooldown, and as soon as we entered normal flight I was relieved to see terms issued by the pirate... Good! Not a mindless griefer!

Great I can "play along" and pay up! Piracy mechanics actually at work! He wanted 100T of cargo! Cool! He's stealing cargo off incoming traders to no doubt sell them probably not just for the profit, but also to even contribute towards the CG. Nice!

So fair enough I think... I'm already at a halt, but deploy my cargo scoop and landing gear as a sign of submission, and then go to type something to the effect that I will pay up...

While doing this, the other CMDR then starts to nudge me, and after not many more seconds then I'm being fired upon... Seems all bets are off now... Do I continue trying to type in a message to him? Do I scoot over to the right hand panel and faff about handing over cargo? Do I still trust him as a "legit pirate" and not just a griefer?


So here we have the pirate mechanics showing their fragility, or in truth basic lack of existence:-
- No easy way to say, "Don't shoot I comply!"
- No easy way to pay up to the demand... Faffing about in the right hand panel in a short amount of time, while under threat of fire?
- A 15 second EXIT from the game, which risks a pirate thinking any inactivity is the victim about to teleport (EXIT) out.


So frustrated that my best efforts to "play along" having failed... Annoyed that I could have just have taken the EXIT option for an better outcome most likely... I can't even be bothered to press "J" to jump, so I just "pull the plug" - I can't be bothered to faff now, or worse still die due to what I perceive as a daft frustrating misunderstanding due to the poor mechanics.

However, I then enter into the game ASAP again, back into OPEN, in the hope he's still there in that location/instance so I can catch the CMDR to hopefully try again, and make the mechanics work! I want to be pirated! I want the game to work!!!

The moment I appear, I'm under fire... Clearly the other CMDR is frustrated at the way his interdiction has gone... I "pull the plug again", but enter in ASAP yet again, desperately hoping a third attempt might end in me being able to actually do this "properly" and simply hand over the 100T of cargo. Alas, the moment I appear, I'm under fire again...

I give up, and go to SOLO, where of course none of these problems exist... (as such)




Now other times I've been pirated - ignoring griefers - it has managed to work at times, but undoubtably many Pirates are quicker to shoot than they'd like (or should) simply because the game doesn't orchestrate/control/help piracy. And of course "victims" are always wary due to the number of "griefers" simply flying "pirate colours"...

Give better coms?

Allow a pirate to dictate their terms?

Maybe even allow a victim to "offer an I surrender" mode?

Maybe allow a victim to more easy pay the demands, without having to faff in the right hand panel, all the time which the Pirate is thinking, they're exiting the game...

Maybe increase the ESCAPE time to 20-30 seconds so pirates are no paranoid about 5 seconds of lack of activity/coms?

Maybe if you press ESCAPE and are trying to exist the game, show the countdown in game to all other players... ie: So a Pirate can see you are trying to sneak out via this mechanic.

Allow a rank/score for the pirate to show (victims) how good they are at their trade. Getting cargo, no mindless destruction.


It just frustrates the hell out of me I want to play in Open and actually don't mind being "pirated". I want to see the game working and "alive". But the game is so weak in this area, it drives me go to SOLO just to skip these frustrations and not suffer due to the misunderstandings and resultant faff


Note: Criticize if you must for "pulling the plug". But frankly, IMHO, if the game is running under flawed ill-considered mechanics, and even my best attempts cannot make it work correctly, I give up! Getting attacked (or destroyed) because the game can't "facilitate a piracy transaction" between to willing participants just does my head in!?

Note: I actually caught the CMDR later on for a chat, and explained I was actually trying to pay when he misconstrued my inactivity as an EXIT attempt, if only to make him feel less frustrated by the whole debacle



This is of course not a unique post. Many people have posted their suggestions to improve/tighten up piracy. I do hope something is planned... I want to see a logical and workable mechanic in action! It has to work for the TRADER --> PIRATE ---> BOUNTY HUNTER food chain to even stand a chance of working as it could/should.

 

[Derath]

I give the gift of rep, for both accepting piracy in open and trying to improve it! But good luck hahahahahaha

 

[NeilF]

I give the gift of rep, for both accepting piracy in open and trying to improve it! But good luck hahahahahaha

Piracy needs to work... It needs to become a flesh out profession with flesh out mechanics...

 

[Boomer Kay]

Do you play in VR with a hotas?
Hitting 2 (opens coms to whatever channel and focuses on the input field) and typing "I surrender" takes about .. 3 seconds if you're a decent typer.
How much simpler can they make this?

Not sure about the Xbox version, though. My wingmate on the 2nd computer has an Xbox clone controller, but also a keyboard, which helps a lot with the sheer button requirement of the game.

 

[xondk]

So here we have the pirate mechanics showing their fragility, or in truth basic lack of existence:-
- No easy way to say, "Don't shoot I comply!"
- No easy way to pay up to the demand... Faffing about in the right hand panel in a short amount of time, while under threat of fire?
- A 15 second EXIT from the game, which risks a pirate thinking any inactivity is the victim about to teleport (EXIT) out.

Well that's technically what the jettison all cargo button is for, dump all and run to survive, but yeah, but maybe it would be nice with a way to configure just how much cargo it should dump rather then all of it, say I don't know 10T at the time or whatever intervals? then you could just hit that key?

That said a "local" voice channel, that would be always open (but togglable) would be a good addition to those that don't have a keyboard easily available, for example xbox users as well as hotas users. Should of course be an icon that indicates if you are listening to it and if you can speak on it, maybe if they create a tiny icon for 'typing' like many messaging apps have as well? for when people are typing text, if you look at the target you'll see small animated dots to indicate that they are typing?

But yeah the reason you got shot at was most likely because you were seen as a combat logger, and yeah you did so because of frustration from the fact that pirate didn't see you as acting fast enough and was fearing combat logging...there's a problem in both of those things :/

 

[ilo]

many games support quick message bindings for fast comabt communications, maybe we can add a new suggestion especially for piracy and thrilling moments like this. A quick: "wait, don't shoot!" on time...

 

[Zeeman]

Do you play in VR with a hotas?
Hitting 2 (opens coms to whatever channel and focuses on the input field) and typing "I surrender" takes about .. 3 seconds if you're a decent typer.
How much simpler can they make this?

Not sure about the Xbox version, though. My wingmate on the 2nd computer has an Xbox clone controller, but also a keyboard, which helps a lot with the sheer button requirement of the game.

To be brutally honest, the current system is ridiculous. We don't all have our set ups with our KB and mouse within easy reach at all times. there either needs to be a way to allow a keybind to allow for quick sending of pre-typed messages ("I submit" or "Hey, I'm pirate, yo, gimme stuff! AAarrrrrr"...), or, there needs to be an effective implementation of voice, much like how it's worked on the X-box since day dot, where you are simply automatically able to talk within the same instance/area.

If the person you are talking to has no mic, or has voice coms disabled, a message in the info panel appears showing which CMDR's in the instance don't have voice active, thus allowing the pirate the knowledge that typing is required, and more time needed to allow for replies...

Z...

 

[Thetele]

Why the first pirate opened fire? He thought you would log of etc. There is no time for you to think, you have some options. Be ready to drop cargo before he message you or start message before you see him ask about cargo. I would give my target max 10 sec to respond before starting to attack. Or you could have dropped the cargo after he opened fire, he probably would have stopped attacking if he was after your cargo. It doesn't take 10 seconds to drop 100 cargo.

If you don't react you will get killed. Don't be slow and start thinking about tea and nice chat, because every second is higher risk for pirate that you will combat log. You can chat after he is sure that you have given him the cargo.

 

[Lateralus]

Yes, piracy's biggest flaw is its lack of dedicated functionality. Typing out messages during a hostile situation just doesn't work.. it usually ends up in a fight or a chase.

 

[Zeeman]

Piracy needs to work... It needs to become a flesh out profession with flesh out mechanics...

Yes, it needs a lot of work, totally agreed. I play open, I accept that I may be pirated by a player (which is much more fun than a minimalist canned script from an NPC pirate that doesn't even accept your cargo when dropped...). I also have my ships set up to allow for this.

Anyway, I ha dbetter stop now befor eI go into some sort of ranting monologue...

Z...

 

[Zeeman]

Why the first pirate opened fire? He thought you would log of etc. There is no time for you to think, you have some options. Be ready to drop cargo before he message you or start message before you see him ask about cargo. I would give my target max 10 sec to respond before starting to attack. Or you could have dropped the cargo after he opened fire, he probably would have stopped attacking if he was after your cargo. It doesn't take 10 seconds to drop 100 cargo.

If you don't react you will get killed. Don't be slow and start thinking about tea and nice chat, because every second is higher risk for pirate that you will combat log. You can chat after he is sure that you have given him the cargo.

And this, exactly, is the issue. I see your point. I TOTALLY get it. I don't begrudge you for it, you are trying to pirate, and you don't want your target getting away.

Yet, here I am, with my HOTAS setup, with a lightly armoured, no arms ship, wondering if you are a griefer just out to blow me away (in which case, I really need to run and jump ASAP), or you are a proper pirate, wanting me to drop cargo in exchange for my life... Situation accepted.

But my KB is sitting behind me, on my bed, becaus eI play in my bedroom, with a large TV as my monitor, and a home made commander chair, and no desk, my HOTAS is attached to the arms of the chair, and there is nowhere for the keyboard to sit - especially as my cat tends to enjoy sitting on my lap.

Now, after the sigh of relief that you send me a pirate message, it's going to take me longer than 10 seconds to reach back, grab keyboard, shoo away my cat, and start typing "I submit".

Do you see where I am going with this? I hope you also see my point of view, here. I *know* I'm not the only person in a situation where I can't grab my KB and type to you within your (perfectly reasonable for the purpose, by the way) 10 second limit. There are also plenty of folk with VR, you can't even see the KB with that sucker,, you need ot remove th eheadset, un-immerse yourself, and start typing, then put the VR back on to see the reply, then take it off to type back...

There needs to be a robust and flexible solution to this. Until then, piracy is just not going to be much fun...

Z...

 

[Boomer Kay]

To be brutally honest, the current system is ridiculous. We don't all have our set ups with our KB and mouse within easy reach at all times.

Voice attack or any of the other 3rd party programs commonly used?

Noninvasive macro programs that simulate mouse and keyboard and are totally in line with the eula are in use since .. the late 90ies?

With VR the problem is even worse, because even if you have the keyboard there, you can't really use it that well, since you're blind to the real world.

I played team fortress 2 pretty extensively and all the communication hotkeys are ever used for on public servers is to spam. 0 actual communication value.
I doubt anyone would really take a spammed default hotkey message with "i surrender" seriously here, either.

 

[Cmdr Bernard]

The pirate probably saw the last batch of victims just logging out, which causes an understandable trigger-finger (I don't approve, but I understand where it comes from).

Logging out so easily is one of the biggest flaws in the game and should be resolved asap. Same with high-waking out. If the pirate does not need to fear the victim is gone without 10-20 seconds, there would be plenty of time for communication.

I think any discussion is fruitless until these two points are not resolved. All we can do is to raise the point to Frontier (which this thread and plenty others before do) and hope they find the time to address this issue. That may be difficult with all hands at work on the 2.1 release.

Addition:
Removing combat logging and high-waking out would probably make life easier for the griefers, so Frontier would need to be careful with this. I think the first step needed would be a proper crime system with real consequences, which seems to be already in the works if I understood previous posts correctly.
Open play is currently so broken it needs a lot of fixes. First crime system, then combat logging and high-waking. That's probably unrealistic to happen soon.

 

[xondk]

I also want to add since a lot of people seem to miss this, PvE piracy is a great way to make profit pirating currently, but yeah I'm guessing the concern is mostly PvP piracy.

 

[TurboJoe]

I don't understand why they can't just have a local direct communication channel, like in DayZ. You could have it so you can speak to, and hear people, within a 1000Ls (or whatever) radius of your ship. You would just need to assign a key for push to talk. Maybe it's something to do with the instancing that prevents them being able to do it?

 

[Boomer Kay]

I don't understand why they can't just have a local direct communication channel, like in DayZ. You could have it so you can speak to, and hear people, within a 1000Ls (or whatever) radius of your ship. You would just need to assign a key for push to talk. Maybe it's something to do with the instancing that prevents them being able to do it?

Probably peer to peer and bandwidth issues. Have you tried video skyping with more than 3 people? The data sent and received explodes and Skype is p2p, too.
Server-client is different, since you only receive one up and one downstream, regardless of the number of participants and the rest of the load is on the server.

 

[mossfoot]

Voice attack has been mentioned and if you have it, setting up a number of quick and dirty macros is the way to go.

However, I agree a solution needs to be in place for those without such an option.

 

[Zeeman]

Voice attack or any of the other 3rd party programs commonly used?

Noninvasive macro programs that simulate mouse and keyboard and are totally in line with the eula are in use since .. the late 90ies?

With VR the problem is even worse, because even if you have the keyboard there, you can't really use it that well, since you're blind to the real world.

I played team fortress 2 pretty extensively and all the communication hotkeys are ever used for on public servers is to spam. 0 actual communication value.
I doubt anyone would really take a spammed default hotkey message with "i surrender" seriously here, either.

I'm trying to figure out whether you are agreeing with me or giving me solutions (sorry, a bit slow this morning, coffee has not yet kicked in).

Voice attack is not really my deal, I have a hotas specifically to not have to talk to my PC to make stuff work. I prefer talking to people - and seeing as I am on Discord or Teamspeak quite often - it would also be very risky. I do have that app on my tablet that lets me set up macros for ED (forgot the name of it) but once again, I have nowhere to put it, otherwise, actually, yes, that would be an OK solution, for me at least. Having an "I submit" macro, or a "I be pirate! AAARRRR!!!!" macro is reasonable.

As for macro programs on the PC, fair enough, I did not know these existed, yet, I don't understand why there can't be a native ED implementation for sending a pre-typed message from a bound key/button. Much easier than setting up a macro on an external program - free or not.

Z...

 

[TurboJoe]

Probably peer to peer and bandwidth issues. Have you tried video skyping with more than 3 people? The data sent and received explodes and Skype is p2p, too.
Server-client is different, since you only receive one up and one downstream, regardless of the number of participants and the rest of the load is on the server.

That must be why they can't do it then. I'm no networking expert, but this instancing/p2p system seems to have a few disadvantages.

 

[Defector]

The problem is that people are so easily able to log off or combat log, that it makes pirates twitchy. I have been playing Elite since beta, and the one thing I hadn't tried was piracy. A month or so ago, I tried for a weekend. I created an elaborate backstory, had a macro ready. I asked for very little, and I tried to make it a fun encounter. The fact that I spent a good portion of the time after interdiction roleplaying a proper pirate, meant that everyone and their mother just logged off in the middle of it. I caught the same person several times, and he would log off every time. I ended up shooting him a couple of times, hoping that he at least wouldn't be able to log off normally. Then he just combat logged.

I can totally understand why pirates shoot first and ask questions later. Everyone should try pirating players at some point because it can be maddening. I was only into it for the roleplay, but it would be nice to make actual money from it. I actually ended 3 million in the hole before the weekend was over.