Start hunting! - A guide to get started in PvP

[Nerwan]

I bet a wing of 4 Corvettes will easily wreck a wing of 4 hull tanks, no matter the ship they are using, while a wing of shielded FDLs or the like will wreck the Corvettes.

Nope, you're dead wrong.. What usually happens is:

* FDLs all focus one corvette, corvette dies really quickly (see what happened in the tournament for evidence of this and note that people stopped bringing big ships to the later tournament rounds)
* FDLs don't have enough rails to finish other corvettes.. (unless using synthesis) so some corvettes survive and no FDLs die because they're too hard to focus.. Right now medium ships rule.

You are correct though that shields are the only way to go on the big ships, the only debate their is do you optimize shield strength or SCB capacity..

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Nope, you're dead wrong.. What usually happens is:

* FDLs all focus one corvette, corvette dies really quickly (see what happened in the tournament for evidence of this and note that people stopped bringing big ships to the later tournament rounds)
* FDLs don't have enough rails to finish other corvettes.. (unless using synthesis) so some corvettes survive and no FDLs die because they're too hard to focus.. Right now medium ships rule.

You are correct though that shields are the only way to go on the big ships, the only debate their is do you optimize shield strength or SCB capacity..

This isn't a tourney tho. There are no rules. The rails run out of ammo and then the FDLs are forced to retreat. The Corvettes win due to not using rails I guess and having more ammo and HPs than the rails can deal in total. You don't win if you don't score a kill.

 

[Nerwan]

This isn't a tourney tho. There are no rules. The rails run out of ammo and then the FDLs are forced to retreat. The Corvettes win due to not using rails I guess and having more ammo and HPs than the rails can deal in total. You don't win if you don't score a kill.

Not just a tourney, this happens to big ships every night... And personally if 4 FDL commanders are off to the station to get more rails and 1/2 Corvette cmdrs are looking at a 35 million rebuy screen I count that a victory for the FDLs..

 

[Derath]

Wings aside, my PvP guide would be learn what can force a fight and what can't, the reason the big ships are worthless in PvP outside of wings is you can't force a fight, unless your sparring with a friend/random friendly any fight where a party can simply leave is bad.

So basically you are trying to combine top speed + masslock to see what ships are within your reach, this is why the FDL/FAS are so effective, because they have an arbitary high masslock (that isn't related to their mass) but also have extremely high speed. When they put the FDL in originally it was actually still the best PvP ship for this as it had the 2nd highest signature, only condas could just leave from mass, and only the clipper (unladen) and the cobra could go faster.

If you want advice with wings its easy, don't I'm still not sold that wings have added anything to the game i feel a bit like PvP is in a worse state now than it used to be (obviously my personal opinion many people enjoy it greatly)

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And for this reason I do not advice using hull tanks. They are incredible stupid and OP. Way too easy to use, almost no disadvantages and cheap in addition. However, considering that we will get C4 MCs soonTM and more weaponary I assume hull tanks are just effective due to the lack of big kinetic weaponary. So hull tanks will most likely get weaker due to new weapins and I *hope* due to a nerf.

Its not the size of the kinetics thats lacking its the ability to hit the target, huge cannons do plenty you just can't reliably hit anything with them - even up close. PAs are acceptable but have a very high energy requirement, its also pretty much why rails are so dominant because they behave like a kinetic in some regards but don't actually miss constantly.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Not just a tourney, this happens to big ships every night... And personally if 4 FDL commanders are off to the station to get more rails and 1/2 Corvette cmdrs are looking at a 35 million rebuy screen I count that a victory for the FDLs..

Aye but then the Vettes are utterly unskilled as not even 20 C2F rails should be able to burst down a Vette faster than it can low wake out. A good example of a player who traded the way up to a Vette.

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Wings aside, my PvP guide would be learn what can force a fight and what can't, the reason the big ships are worthless in PvP outside of wings is you can't force a fight, unless your sparring with a friend/random friendly any fight where a party can simply leave is bad.

So basically you are trying to combine top speed + masslock to see what ships are within your reach, this is why the FDL/FAS are so effective, because they have an arbitary high masslock (that isn't related to their mass) but also have extremely high speed. When they put the FDL in originally it was actually still the best PvP ship for this as it had the 2nd highest signature, only condas could just leave from mass, and only the clipper (unladen) and the cobra could go faster.

If you want advice with wings its easy, don't I'm still not sold that wings have added anything to the game i feel a bit like PvP is in a worse state now than it used to be (obviously my personal opinion many people enjoy it greatly)

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Its not the size of the kinetics thats lacking its the ability to hit the target, huge cannons do plenty you just can't reliably hit anything with them - even up close. PAs are acceptable but have a very high energy requirement, its also pretty much why rails are so dominant because they behave like a kinetic in some regards but don't actually miss constantly.

But have low ammo. C4 cannons are oathetic and don't grind hull, they are meant for module sniping, which is why you can two-shot a PP with cannons but due to their low RoF and DPS they are useless for grinding down hull. A C2 MC would do better.

I use plasma and frags against hull tanks but the best way to get rid of a hull tank is to ram with shield tanks as shield tanks have alooooot more HP than hull tanks and ramming is raw damage which means it ignores hull resistences.

 

[Nerwan]

Aye but then the Vettes are utterly unskilled as not even 12 C2F rails should be able to burst down a Vette faster than it can low wake out. A good examole of aplayer who trader the way up to a Vette.

Well wings coordinate and hold fire until all engage.. and it takes ~10 seconds ish to low wake once you realise.. and in that time you've been hit by 4 (in the wing) x 5 (# rails on an FDL) x 4 (the number you can do in the time) C2F rails... So yeh, it even happens to the best corvette cmdrs (and did in the tournament).. There's people that have done all the maths, but that's roughly right.. You probably can get out if you:

1. Realise quickly that you've been focused.
2. Pump SCB immediately and before you need it.
3. Jump while SCB charing and pop heatsinks..

But then they just move on to the next Corvette right?

 

[Crimson Kaim]

But then they just move on to the next Corvette right?

And eventually running out of ammo.

I haven't watched the videos of the tourney but if you managed to get destroyed by rail boats then you have obviously done something wrong. The better pilot wins, not the better loadout.

 

[Nerwan]

And eventually running out of ammo.

I haven't watched the videos of the tourney but if you managed to get destroyed by rail boats then you have obviously done something wrong. The better pilot wins, not the better loadout.

That's a statement of belief rather than fact, like I say, do the maths and look at the evidence of how such conflicts have gone down even among the best pilots. Sometimes better pilots win despite poor load-outs but generally speaking good pilots choose good load-outs so you can't separate the two..

 

[Mechanist]

Didn't want to fight this annoying build while eating my pizza so I just low waked out over and over again and gave them my kill in hope they would finally leave me alone (which they did).

LOL.

Next time try one of these:

Spoiler

Anyway...good introduction to PVP [up]

 

[Leo Sagan]

+ rep for a truly amazing guide OP

 

[Derath]

But have low ammo. C4 cannons are oathetic and don't grind hull, they are meant for module sniping, which is why you can two-shot a PP with cannons but due to their low RoF and DPS they are useless for grinding down hull. A C2 MC would do better.

I use plasma and frags against hull tanks but the best way to get rid of a hull tank is to ram with shield tanks as shield tanks have alooooot more HP than hull tanks and ramming is raw damage which means it ignores hull resistences.

Cannons do trash damage because once a module is destroyed you can't damage it anymore but its like an invulnerable zone on the ship, multi-cannons don't have this problem because they don't hit the same areas anyway (so your right they shred hulls better, but for a reason they need to fix)

Frags is what i'd use personally, as they only work at the range which kinetics are viable at anyway so at least they really bring the pain. Tbh frags are my favourite weapon in the game, I'd use them on every ship if it wasn't for ammo limitations.

 

[Atrer]

This guide should be stickied by a mod. Very cool stuff here.

Great job man!

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Good guide, vulture is underrated in PvP.

 

[snadge]

Thank you for this, as a rabid PvPer myself, although I have never indulged in this game yet, still learning, need to get FA under control first, this guide reinforces a lot of the beliefs I have about this game.

 

[_Fissure]

Excellent guide, great work. However, I will add one little tip for newer players getting involved with PvP who may still need a bit of help with putting rounds on target.

If you're still learning how to fire fixed weapons, don't be afraid to run gimbled. If your opponent pops chaff or goes cold, un-target them and use your gimbled weapons as fixed weapons, then retarget when the chaff stops. This will allow inexperienced players to maximize the amount of damage they get on target while learning how to fly in a PvP environment. I've found it to be helpful, and no pilot I've ever fought has actually popped chaff or gone cold.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Well wings coordinate and hold fire until all engage.. and it takes ~10 seconds ish to low wake once you realise.. and in that time you've been hit by 4 (in the wing) x 5 (# rails on an FDL) x 4 (the number you can do in the time) C2F rails... So yeh, it even happens to the best corvette cmdrs (and did in the tournament).. There's people that have done all the maths, but that's roughly right.. You probably can get out if you:

1. Realise quickly that you've been focused.
2. Pump SCB immediately and before you need it.
3. Jump while SCB charing and pop heatsinks..

But then they just move on to the next Corvette right?

Maths time!

4x 5 rail FDL shield DPS: 184.8

Corvette Shield (this build): http://coriolis.io/outfit/federal_c...2025t5t4k5o5o5j5j5e5e6g.AwRj4ys5bo==.Aw18Z5A=
1333

SCB restore on test build: 1420

Time per SCB cycle: 16 seconds.

Energy restored per second: 89.75

Real DPS: 95.05

Time to shields down: Just under 15 seconds (~8 shots)

Yeah, railguns are OP

Still, that's enough time to hi wake

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Maths time!

4x 5 rail FDL shield DPS: 184.8

Corvette Shield (this build): http://coriolis.io/outfit/federal_c...2025t5t4k5o5o5j5j5e5e6g.AwRj4ys5bo==.Aw18Z5A=
1333

SCB restore on test build: 1420

Time per SCB cycle: 16 seconds.

Energy restored per second: 89.75

Real DPS: 95.05

Time to shields down: Just under 15 seconds (~8 shots)

Yeah, railguns are OP

58% damage recudtion form 4 pips to SYS calculated?

 

[Alexander the Grape]

58% damage recudtion form 4 pips to SYS calculated?

Yup, hence 184 (22*5*4*0.42)

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Excellent guide, great work. However, I will add one little tip for newer players getting involved with PvP who may still need a bit of help with putting rounds on target.

If you're still learning how to fire fixed weapons, don't be afraid to run gimbled. If your opponent pops chaff or goes cold, un-target them and use your gimbled weapons as fixed weapons, then retarget when the chaff stops. This will allow inexperienced players to maximize the amount of damage they get on target while learning how to fly in a PvP environment. I've found it to be helpful, and no pilot I've ever fought has actually popped chaff or gone cold.

I also thought about this but I went straight for fixed for the following reasons:

- fixed is the ultimate goal of all three variants
- playing with the targeting systems requires additional focus and I tried to minimaize the attention of the player for their ship so they can concentrate on analysing the battle so they learn faster.
- fixed actually has aiming assistence, especially when it comes to module sniping

Thank you for your feedback, though. Appreciated

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Yup, hence 184 (22*5*4*0.42)

Lemme do the math again (just making sure)

4 FDLs with 5 rails = 4*5*21.66 MJ/s = 433 MJ/s

433*0.42 = 182 MJ/s

1333/182 = 7,3s


Hm. That actually deals more damage than a combo of SCBs can reload. But then this should still be enough to get out of the fight via low wake.

And we didn't calculate the 30% damage bonus from synthesis. However, this may be just 1,3 seconds so we can say 6 seconds to strip down shields without SCBs + hull strength (my Corvette has 2400 hull HP with military grade alloys which reduces damage from rails as well) ... this should really be enough to get out of the fight soon enough, unless they instantly destroy your FSD but this is very unlikely.


But then I could argue that a wing of 4 plasma FDLs burst down a Corvette faster. What was the DMG/shot of the C2F PA again?

 

[Nerwan]

[Removed, I didn't read the thing I was replying to properly...] - It sucks that you can't delete your own posts.