Is it just 'grinders' who feel the game lacks depth?

[RhymeRhyme]

Wall of text alert!

No, it's also people who bought the game for the multiplayer part and really got disappointed by the game.

 

[Datalink]

As the other pilot in the OP image, I'd just like to point out through all these posts...

Bluedeer, I wasn't OP...

 

[Chainguns]

I wish some people differentiated between playing the game and playing in the game. If you play in the game then everything is as rich and fun as your imagination, so no complaints, end of discussion.

Now the grind is when you play the game. FDev have put in place incentives and unlocks and not by accident. As gamers we seek out these incentives and unlocks and want them in the smartest most time efficient way. It is human nature to seek out rewards as quickly as possible.

Sadly the incentives and unlocks in ED are centred around repeating one or two disproportionately rewarding actions. For trade it is find palladium or imperial slaves and run them x1,000 until your eyes bleed. For exploration it is go to a neutron star field and scan 1,000 of them. For navy it is find 10,000 charity missions. Why were the incentives structured this way when anyone can think of other things that could contribute? Things that are fun and varied rather than repetitive - this is a minor tweak yet the devs decided not to do this.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Is it just me who thinks you get out of the game experience what you put in? If you want to play a role, or explore game mechanics, or enjoy co-operative endeavours with like minded players, the game has the tools to allow you to do that. But at the same time, if all you want is in game achievements, the quickest and easiest ways to get them tend to make them feel less like achievement and more like make work.


* Because I am a Fanboi, with a tendancy to White Knight!

If we go philosophical here - everything repeated again and again will feel a chore. People who want to be best at work in real life work really hard - or pay off right people, or befriend right people - and ED is close to space job sim you can get. For me it is escapism, because I just want to enjoy "boredom of space". I can change professions and roles at ease - I can't do that it in real life - and I can pew pew bad guys - again, not trained and you can't pew pew bad buys every day in real life.

As majority of those wanting to "complete" game are looking towards ships, everything that stands in their way is grind, simple as that. Rank? Grind. Missions? Grind. Screw role play, I want Anaconda, because...well, I haven't figured out yet how just relax and fly.

 

[Datalink]

I wish some people differentiated between playing the game and playing in the game. If you play in the game then everything is as rich and fun as your imagination, so no complaints, end of discussion.

Now the grind is when you play the game. FDev have put in place incentives and unlocks and not by accident. As gamers we seek out these incentives and unlocks and want them in the smartest most time efficient way. It is human nature to seek out rewards as quickly as possible.

Sadly the incentives and unlocks in ED are centred around repeating one or two disproportionately rewarding actions. For trade it is find palladium or imperial slaves and run them x1,000 until your eyes bleed. For exploration it is go to a neutron star field and scan 1,000 of them. For navy it is find 10,000 charity missions. Why were the incentives structured this way when anyone can think of other things that could contribute? Things that are fun and varied rather than repetitive - this is a minor tweak yet the devs decided not to do this.

I do agree with this, the stick for that carrot is so painfully repetitive.

Generally I'll go find some random thing to do and I'll do it for a while and make some money doing it. Though I've also been in debt to my eyeballs for ship death a few times. I bounce back, I do good, I add another ship to my collection and then I'll climb into one of my favorites and do more random stuff, admittedly my method is slow and unorganized but it's also done good for not burning me out too badly... When in doubt, point at a star, and say "I'm gonna do something random there.

Also, related to my first post, those two stars... I actually flew past the second star's nav point... it's nav point was where it was supposed to be, but the star wasn't... I was sad.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I wish some people differentiated between playing the game and playing in the game. If you play in the game then everything is as rich and fun as your imagination, so no complaints, end of discussion.

Now the grind is when you play the game. FDev have put in place incentives and unlocks and not by accident. As gamers we seek out these incentives and unlocks and want them in the smartest most time efficient way. It is human nature to seek out rewards as quickly as possible.

Is it really? I think this is where FD is misunderstood then. Mostly those are *rewards* for reaching certain stage in your efforts. They are not *incentives*. There's reason Anaconda costs that much - and it is not because FD wants you grind it to the death. Anaconda is ship which you can finally *afford* when you have 300M or more in bank. It is not goal of means.

That's major issue with gamers these days - everything must be a target.

 

[Derath]

That's major issue with gamers these days - everything must be a target.

Depends on the content of your game, targets become more important the less gripping the content is, its very easy to ignore objectives in a game thats utterly captured you, but its very difficult to ignore objectives in a game that hasn't.

I think Elite benefits massively from commitment, everyone who plays with a custom setup and a rift seems to have a great time - and I can see why, its like full on commitment to the immersion. But sadly on a monitor with a mouse it just doesn't grab me the way other space games have, though in fairness i probably got a similar playtime out of it to most.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

I think it lacks depth because my Oculus Rift hasn't arrived yet.

*ba-dum tishh!*

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

No, really, this is a space adventure game.
Big difference between that and a space sim.
I discovered it a year ago but didn't know what it was and eventually left it but it always bugged me.

This year I think I know what it is and how to do it.
I only came back to this game cos I believe.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

Your exploration example is a common one and one that is wrong. You do not explore to honk, you honk to explore. If you do not see the difference then you are not an explorer in the same way that many people are not combat pilots. There are an enormous amount of things people find to do that is actually exploration.

While I don't say there can not be improvements, I believe FD did a great job with exploration.

Edit:forgot to quote but the point stands anyway I think.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

"Blaze your own trail" This plus the DDA for me was the possibillity to be a 100% full time explorer with very cool mechanics. The reality is that "Blaze your own trail" is do everything because the activities are so shallow that it's going to be a very short enjoyment in each one.

It IS silly. You can imagine whatever you want but you can't change the rules which govern the gameplay. You can't add more complexity because the rules are fixed, like honk to explore.

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but if you really did want to be 100% explorer before you bought the game, I suggest you should have read some books on what exploration was before you did.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

I'm happy to explain what I mean, though from your post above I'm not sure you're interested in a reasoned argument.

Take exploration. If you want to find all bodies in a system, you jump to it, press a button for a few seconds and they all appear in your System Map / Nav view. That's it. There's no challenge, no variety, no need to make any decisions or use any skills. Press a button, job done.

How could it be done differently?
- Perhaps when the "honk" fires, you get a chorus of echoes back, with different echoes for different planet types and the delay is proportional to the distance from your ship. Then you'd have to use your skill to recognise the sounds of the planets you're looking for.

- Or perhaps instead of the honk, you have a gravitational scanner that shows distortions caused by the planets. Once you find a distortion you could switch between EM spectra or switch to different sensors based on the planet type / size of the distortion.

- As it stands, outfitting for exploration means carrying an ADS and DSS. Always. It'd be more interesting if you could outfit for different roles, so fit sensors for scanning gas giants would earn you more money from those, but less from other planets. Then when scanning the system you'd be proactively searching for gas giants. The more specialised the scanner, the greater the reward for those planet types.

- Exploration/surveying missions could help a lot. "Sirius Manufacturing needs an Ammonia World with a gravity of 0.5-0.7G for optimised operating conditions", and now your exploring has a purpose. Find a rare planet like that and you get mega-rich.

Planet scanning is no better. Target planet, point your nose at it, job done. Again, no skill, no variety, no challenge.

I do like the SRV and Wave Scanner a lot. Stumble across a POI, find a good landing spot in rough terrain, deploy the Wave Scanner and use your ears and eyes to detect and identify the different types of target. The biggest problem is that there's nothing very useful to find.

If they could add something like the Wave Scanner to the ship, it would be a huge improvement. The HUD does show you your heat signature, perhaps we could have scanner that displayed the heat signatures of other ships (with each ship type having a unique signature). So instead of a "Strong Signal Source" popping up on your screen, you'd see a "Signal Source" and have to use your eyes to identify the ships in it by recognising their heat signatures.

You are not talking about exploration in the main. You are talking about operating a more complex piece of equipment, more akin to archeology than exploration. Explorers find new routes, they visit pointless places just because they are there, they prove that there really is water beyond the ice pack etc etc. They may do a bit of science on the way but mainly only to get the funding.

Your last point is interesting though. You suggest searching for an Ammonia world with 0.5-0.7G. Why don't you do that then? Some people look for the closest gas giant to an A class star and if they find it, it actually tells something about how the ED galaxy is made. Some people catalogue the atmospheric pressure of water worlds,looking for anomalies. Some people search for an earth like orbiting a blackhole to see if they COULD be created and viable. The list goes on, others have deduced exactly how the galactic co-ordinate system works, others have found that the unscoopables form a layer across the entire galaxy that rises and falls to give the impression of patches of unscoopables. You have just missed the point, that's all.

 

[Jukelo]

I suggest you should have read some books on what exploration was before you did.

Historically speaking exploration was never the kind of vulgar space tourism you're describing. Exploration was never done for the sake of it, it was always a tool, the point being to generate more profit. To find new lands to exploit, new resources to bring back and become rich and famous. That's a glaring omission in ED right now, the profit and incentives just aren't there although they were discussed in the DDF back then.

 

[Sans Daring]

Is it really? I think this is where FD is misunderstood then. Mostly those are *rewards* for reaching certain stage in your efforts. They are not *incentives*. There's reason Anaconda costs that much - and it is not because FD wants you grind it to the death. Anaconda is ship which you can finally *afford* when you have 300M or more in bank. It is not goal of means.

That's major issue with gamers these days - everything must be a target.

I think this is where the projections of a game's longevity and the attitudes (valid, not knocking it) of a type of vocal, visible hardcore gamer, come into play. Elite is on a long project plan. For many, the majority, they don't have the time (and sometimes inclination) to grind to get to Elite and an Anaconda in the space of months or even a year. These are long term game goals for people who they hope will continue with the game long term, with updates to the system mechanics to keep them interested.

That's not to say it will work, I don't know - I don't think anyone does. This sort of game mechanic is fairly new in the context Elite sits in. Whether the core game ludology can survive years without people losing interest is a question, even with ship targets and new updates - can the game itself perpetuate interest for 4-5 years? We'll find out.

But the bottomline, some gamers make it a constant target. Some do, then realise they shouldn't. I did, then realised I was happier finding a class of ship that suits me and then popping on to do whatever serves. Right now, I'm back enjoying some surface missions after I detoured on my first trip to Robigo. I'm now considering heading back to the Federation and levelling up to go look round Sol. This is really, in my opinion, how the game works best for me (and probably many others who have got caught on le Grind). See it for the long term project it is. Be less intense, step back from the battle with game ideology, and just enjoy the simulation and a casual pace. That Annoconda (or Corvette, or whatever will be there 2 years down the line) can wait, if its needed at all.

 

[sutex]

No depth !! UNTIL !!
Proximity Chat; a 1km spherical radio bubble, transmitted by all ships, all within the 1km bubble can talk with each other, closer too each other, clearer the sound, until you fly out of the bubble


Great for dogfights, parties ( whoops cant get out yet ) other fights, plus if you say rude things your instantly blow up and your account is banned :O I doubt that would happen , a pity
Instead this wonderful idea of Proximity Chat will be used by griffters to pounce on rich traders,
and others looking like they might be thinking of becoming rich traders,
but are still poor and have no cargo

But it won't be the same BORING grind , since spontaneous coordinated attacks now makes route planning life and death FUN , but posies planning is better


AND Carriers ,

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=239451&p=3704831&viewfull=1#post3704831

 

[Bill Clement]

The summer before uni I had a job working in a factory packaging food products.

I was put on a line checking bottle labelling that moved past on a carosal. We were on a tight deadline to get these bottles out otherwise we would have had to stay past 5pm which no-one wanted to do.

One day the carosal stopped near 5pm. The middle aged women I was on the line with were upset about this and continued to complain to each other. Meanwhile I had watched the engineer on previous occasions slip the belt back on the motor and I fixed the machine and everyone went home on time.

In this parable who is the grinder?

The women who carried on regardless?

The man who cared enough to sort the problem?

I think your parable has more to do with the roles genders tend to gravitate towards, in spite of much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the gender ideologues. On some platforms your comment would already be getting spammed with personal attacks, being buried under a mountain of straw and you'd be wondering whether most of the s and harridans replying actually know what the words they're bandying around actually mean!

 

[Yaffle]

Er, let's get back on topic please.

 

[Bill Clement]

I think this is where the projections of a game's longevity and the attitudes (valid, not knocking it) of a type of vocal, visible hardcore gamer, come into play. Elite is on a long project plan. For many, the majority, they don't have the time (and sometimes inclination) to grind to get to Elite and an Anaconda in the space of months or even a year. These are long term game goals for people who they hope will continue with the game long term, with updates to the system mechanics to keep them interested.

That's not to say it will work, I don't know - I don't think anyone does. This sort of game mechanic is fairly new in the context Elite sits in. Whether the core game ludology can survive years without people losing interest is a question, even with ship targets and new updates - can the game itself perpetuate interest for 4-5 years? We'll find out.

But the bottomline, some gamers make it a constant target. Some do, then realise they shouldn't. I did, then realised I was happier finding a class of ship that suits me and then popping on to do whatever serves. Right now, I'm back enjoying some surface missions after I detoured on my first trip to Robigo. I'm now considering heading back to the Federation and levelling up to go look round Sol. This is really, in my opinion, how the game works best for me (and probably many others who have got caught on le Grind). See it for the long term project it is. Be less intense, step back from the battle with game ideology, and just enjoy the simulation and a casual pace. That Annoconda (or Corvette, or whatever will be there 2 years down the line) can wait, if its needed at all.

I think the longevity of the title is an aspect that doesn't get nearly as much thought as it should on the forum. Lack of depth could prematurely end the title, but regular injections of new content are needed to continue generating sales. The complexity some on this thread are demanding may come in future updates; I'm not convinced more complex controls or procedures will add depth, meaning or value to our in game interactions. I would much rather see more complexity and nuance in our dealings with NPCs, individually and collectively. I take the point made earlier about persistence- being able to return to an earlier incident would add enormously to our immersion. Hopefully that's a fix we'll see fairly soon...

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

I feel this game lacks depth because, aside from propulsion and weaponry, the year 3302 feels far behind 2016 in terms of technology (especially when it comes to modern conveniences).

I feel this game lacks depth because if you remove the players, the bubble almost comes to a grinding halt. There's no commerce. No sense of a living society. No consequences for your actions.

I feel this game lacks depth because a system with a population of 30 million doesn't feel any different than a system 30k ly away, aside from a random ship spawning on screen. These systems should be New York City equivalents in terms of activity. Even Sol and Achenar just feel frozen in time. There is no government or corporate activity. No mining barges located in ring systems with transports moving in and out hauling everything back. Stuff that isn't available to us.

I feel this game lacks depth because everything in the game seem it's just a placeholder. It still very much feels like an alpha 2 years after release.

I feel this game lacks depth because when I go to the bulletin board, I get flooded with low rank trade missions, despite being ranked elite. Completing any mission gives no acknowledgement. No thank you. No notion that people besides the players exist in this universe. The NPC's are as shallow as everything else. A few scripted lines and that's it.


I play this game. I enjoy this game. I am excited for what is coming in 2.1, as I feel it looks like a large leap forward to fixing a lot of the issues I have with it. As long as it keeps improving, I will continue to play and enjoy it.

The imagination thing is a cop out. In a visual medium such as a video game, this falls on the developers shoulders. It's why they are paid to do it. A book forces you to use your imagination through detailed description, and through character development. We don't have that, either.

 

[Bill Clement]

Sorry Yaffle, didn't mean to scare you; I specifically avoided using that f-word, too...

 

[NathanM]

The missions seem pointless and badly implemented (e.g. time limited "hold this item" missions that bug or repetative missions that take ages). There is so much missing from the game (e.g. you cant demand that an NPC drops cargo and while every NPC can transfer money to you instantly and remotly you cant transfer money to anyone, ever). Planetary landing was only added so we could have a racing car simulatior in game (which isnt particualry fun and all the planets are a single texture). The insurance concepet is retarted (imagine your house insurance fails to pay out because you dont have 5% of the house value in your bank account when your house burns down?). IMO the game is half finished and overall below average, if I was a reviewer I would give it 49% and when asked I recommend people dont paly it - I only play becuase I loved Elite 1.