Let's get one thing straight.

[kofeyh]

Yea, I understand that but it is still an attempt to engineer a change in player behaviour so that more people will be in Open specifically to be shot at. It's a futile waste of time and resources and that is my point. It's also the thin end of an oft seen wedge.

Letting the PvP minority wag the game dog. Nothing good ever comes of that. At the moment people are playing in the way they have the most fun in. There is no problem demanding a solution.

And btw. We ain't in that topic here.

To be fair, you can undermine, or fortify in solo, and I cannot prevent it. You are free to do so for as long as you wish. I can also fortify or undermine, in solo, but this is also unable to be prevented; it creates at best a stalemate; typically it creates mass distortion because there's no way to affect a change in effect.

In open, I can stop, or be stopped. This creates a dynamic where there is genuine risk (calling AI a specific risk is weird, because AI is in open as well) is actually less optimal. Open doesn't support your power as well as solo. This is the dynamic Frontier are investigating. Because there is the potential to prevent fortifying or undermining in Open. In solo, this risk very obviously does not exist.

This is partly why a fifth column exists at all; because that can cross the boundary. Because it can affect all modes. I am not surprise some want it to become a criminal activity (which it partly is) however it's actually an intrinsic balancing mechanism precisely because it's as, if not more effective in solo, as it is in open (there is no risk of being caught playing the wrong side).

This is ultimately what it boils down to; there is always potential in open to prevent actions occurring, there is no such risk in solo. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that entire imbalance, is why fifth columns exist at all. It's the solution to solo. Unfortunately it's still not really enough, as it's very very evident most PP occurs in solo.

 

[DaggerSnake]

Ungh another day, another thread. I think I'm finally settling into a desire for getting rid of all modes and having one mode to rule them all.

at start menu:
PLAY ELITE

no hollow markers, one world and you better watch your back, what ships do you watch and trust? Is that a player acting like an NPC? If I interdict that ship, will I be in for a surprise? Are there players in this CG system? Better send a global hail and see what happens. Don't feel like talking, better keep quiet and not draw attention to myself, this cargo needs to get delivered.

PvE, PvP, OPEN, SOLO...remove the conversation. PvELITE all the way.

 

[Siobhan]

That's not how superpowers in a cold-war work, Siobhan.
If Delaine is more of a pain to the Empire than anyone else, why would the Feds or Alliance do anything to put a stop to that?
It's all realpolitik, enemy-of-my-enemy stuff

If it stays cold, maybe... but we know they're all ramping up after the UI thing... They are still paranoid, but if they're looking to be fighting outsiders soon, they will be joining forced, and the last thing they will want is someone like Delane on the inside.
But that's my opinion, and you're right... realpolitik is weird.

 

[Bill Clement]

I don't know whether it's an Aunt Sally, a stall full of 'em, a failure to see the opposing viewpoint or a blank refusal to do it. Doesn't really matter, some of you are completely missing the point.

PP- there is no increased danger from opposing PP in open. None, even if you get interdicted and blown to smithereens. The blockader is wasting time, effort and resources blowing you up that would be much better spent undermining or reinforcing. It's a n00b error, it's going to lose the struggle for them, it is clear proof that the danger of you losing the campaign is significantly reduced. If you PP, have you ever actually tried to blockade other players? How did that work out for you? Hint- when you lost, it wasn't because the opposition all hid in solo.

There is a potential for human interaction. This is the difference between the modes and it's constant, no matter what you're doing. It has nothing to do with PP and everything to do with how you want to enjoy your game experience. See the OP for an eloquent and comprehensive explanation of why some people don't want that particular experience.

PP has real issues- the 5th column being the most pressing. FD are not addressing those issues. Instead they're considering rebalancing the reward structure to give a bonus to any PP carried out in open.

The 'risk' has nothing to do with opposing PP, the 'reward' can only be had by changing modes and exposing the player to a different game environment.

The proposed change has nothing to do with PP and everything to do with appeasing those who want a greater number of players in open.

It's not zero sum- the intention is to make open player's actions more effective than solo ones. That's the thin edge of the blade, people. Right now there's no intention to change solo in any other meaningful way, but if this doesn't bring the masses flooding back into open, what next? It's absolutely the start of a slippery slope, the start of a balancing process that attempts to elevate open above other modes.

The OPs point was that the reasons people don't play in open aren't necessarily the ones put forward by the 'open zealots' (love that turn of phrase, Askavir!). In PP Sandro is making a huge assumption about the numbers playing a particular game mode, guided by the extremely vocal PvP faction. It's understandable; his mindset is that of a games designer and developer, he thinks in terms of risk against reward, possible exploits and most effective paths toward end game states. Players don't necessarily think in those terms. It's entirely possible that a significant number of players like playing PP solo for reasons similar to the OPs, or because they want a break from open's distractions and feel drawn to PP rather than other game activities, or because they want a way to get back at what they see as undesirables in open or any of a multitude of other reasons. It's unlikely to be as simple or clear cut as PP being most effective in solo.

The reason this is such an issue is that this is the first time players outside of open will be directly penalised for the benefit of open players. It sets a precedent and for that reason it should be opposed by all of us, even open players like myself. If you truly want open to be more populated then come up with ways to make it a more inviting place. AA protecting newbs in the starter systems, Fuel Rats being awesome, the Distant Worlds Expedition are all great and inspirational examples of things that actually encourage those inclined to enjoy a multi-player experience to come play with us. Bribing, cajoling or forcing them into the one true mode won't work, it might even drive them away... [sad]

 

[Ian Skippy]

PP has real issues- the 5th column being the most pressing. FD are not addressing those issues. Instead they're considering rebalancing the reward structure to give a bonus to any PP carried out in open.

Talk about missing the point: the reward structure change was proposed in one sentence in a large OP by sandro that focussed 99% on possible fixes for 5th columning.

Seriously...

 

[tagos]

To be fair, you can undermine, or fortify in solo, and I cannot prevent it. You are free to do so for as long as you wish. I can also fortify or undermine, in solo, but this is also unable to be prevented; it creates at best a stalemate; typically it creates mass distortion because there's no way to affect a change in effect.

In open, I can stop, or be stopped. This creates a dynamic where there is genuine risk (calling AI a specific risk is weird, because AI is in open as well) is actually less optimal. Open doesn't support your power as well as solo. This is the dynamic Frontier are investigating. Because there is the potential to prevent fortifying or undermining in Open. In solo, this risk very obviously does not exist.

This is partly why a fifth column exists at all; because that can cross the boundary. Because it can affect all modes. I am not surprise some want it to become a criminal activity (which it partly is) however it's actually an intrinsic balancing mechanism precisely because it's as, if not more effective in solo, as it is in open (there is no risk of being caught playing the wrong side).

This is ultimately what it boils down to; there is always potential in open to prevent actions occurring, there is no such risk in solo. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that entire imbalance, is why fifth columns exist at all. It's the solution to solo. Unfortunately it's still not really enough, as it's very very evident most PP occurs in solo.

Well duh, but so what? A players right to play in the way that's most fun for them trumps that afaik. And the 5th column stuff would be going on if there were no modes at all. Cheaters cheating happens in all MMO's. That people playing solo are in any way responsible is a dog that ain't going to hunt.

But it's all a waste of time. It won't bring people into Open to PP because mostly they don't care about the Powers in the first place. So then what happens next?

Let me peer into my crystal ball using mu decades long experience of MMO's. Ah, I see the same PvP open lot demanding the individual player rewards for Open be increased as an incentive.

I also see game developers who have already demonstrated they haven't the foggiest idea about how to make Open PvP attractive (hint - you can't) wasting more time and annoying a major section of their player base at the same time. Sen it all before.

There's no possibility of realising their vision for Open in general and PP in particular; because - People. It is going to be effort that is not just wasted but counterproductive.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I'm not sure I agree with painting it like this.

Sure this is how it is now but isn't this because the "right" solution is just to drop to solo.

Taking PP activities as the example. In this situation you KNOW you're heading into risky territory, you're forewarned, so you switch to a slightly more combat orientated build, perhaps rack up on shields/chaff/scbs?

Suddenly an insurance bill is not the only outcome. Sure if you fly your unshielded T9 as people currently do in risk-free solo, in the event of encountering an opposing power yeah you have little chance. But players will adapt if the game gives them room to do so, and that's where interesting things can happen. But as it stands none of this is possible, because PP solo/pg, and it's a real shame.

If a hypothetical bonus covers the sacrifice you make by going open and not using your unshielded T9 then doesn't it all work out? With the net benefit of a new viable avenue of gameplay being opened up? An avenue that's not T9 shuttling of goods back and forth while you afk browse Facebook. And at that point there's nothing stopping you going solo anyway, players have just been provided with an alternative viable option.

When was the last time you Pvp'ed and how often do you do it?
Actually, when was the last time you actually did any of the things you're suggesting other ppl do and magically manage to survive in the current build in PvE.

 

[Lestenio]

Solo will not last in functionality forever - if Elite wants to be a game that pushes the boat out and wants to create a massive community, Solo will be gradually phased out of importance.

Frontier are a publicly traded company, after all - and that means share-holders. Share-holders love money - it makes them smile when they get up in the morning...

And to make money, FD need customers spending it, that's why solo will never be phased out of importance.

 

[Derath]

I don't know whether it's an Aunt Sally, a stall full of 'em, a failure to see the opposing viewpoint or a blank refusal to do it. Doesn't really matter, some of you are completely missing the point.

Which is exactly what your doing, you can't place a theoretical limit on something like "PP- there is no increased danger from opposing PP in open. None, even if you get interdicted and blown to smithereens. The blockader is wasting time, effort and resources blowing you up that would be much better spent undermining or reinforcing."

This is like saying in the board-game diplomacy you shouldn't ever attempt to negotiate with the other players because its best to assume they will all betray you and to instead just win the game analytically. Theoretically your completely correct, in practice your completely wrong.

I barely engage in powerplay and even then i've still been interdicted multiple times by players defending the province i was undermining, its rare but it does happen, if you think doing powerplay exclusively in open has absolutely no difference to solo your just kidding yourself, it might be very nearly no difference, or near as makes no difference no difference, but they are not equal until you are the only player left.

Agree that fixing 5th factioning is way way more important to fix though, or tbh all of powerplay probably needs a mechanics overhaul.

 

[Bostlabs]

I've wasted enough time already on this.

And... Ignored.

 

[Bostlabs]

The point is that, of late there seems to be an increased number of threads and topics attempting to "fix" the game so that the player base switches to open but they constantly cite incorrect motives for why players aren't in open at all. While everything on the forums doesn't directly impact the fate of the game or decisions of the developers some of it in some ways does. I think it's important that it's understood that there isn't a way to "fix" it because there isn't a problem, but a preference.

I certainly believe there are people whose credit balances or whatever are so important to them they won't risk them in open, but I think they are fewer than those that just don't like that style of play and never will. The thing is, by nature they tend to be the quieter segment, in the game and on the forums. They may come here and read and agree and rep but never comment in any thread on the topic, I lurked around here for quite a while before I ever even registered. That's just the way their personalities are and the point is, that's fine and there isn't a way to "fix" it and that needs to be taken into account along with the opinions of the sometimes more vocal "opposition" (I think we aren't opposed in goal, just in method, we all want the game to be better). I guess I felt like it should be given a voice.

Agreed!

Not wanting PVP forced on me is just a small part of the reasons why I don't choose Open.

I do not want to talk to you
I do not want to wave at you
I do not want to interact with you
I do not want to wait on you
I do not want to be annoyed by you
I do not want to get pestered by you
I do not want to be your toy when you are bored
I do not want to be involved in your Role Playing of whatever justification you've come up with to force PVP on players

I do not want you in my game.
To that goal, I choosed solo or private.
Should FD decide Open is the only mode going forward, I won't be your game.
And I will ask for a refund of my lifetime pass.

And I suspect I won't be the only one doing so.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

What a distinct need to talk you have - for an introvert.
No, have some rep. I'm very similar when it comes to Elite and why I want to play alone...

That's the thing for us introverts, when we've had enough, we let you know... all of it.
What we didn't say in the past, we state clearly in the now.

 

[bitstorm]

This thread is utterly ridiculous.

Does anyone here GENUINELY think Frontier are scrapping solo and forcing people into open? Why on Earth does this topic keep coming up again and again?

Where did this ridiculous rumour come from that folk keep complaining about it happening and how they WON'T stand for it?

It's like trying to discuss a genuinely interesting topic with Chicken Little or something.

 

[DanaM]

This thread is utterly ridiculous.

And yet you post here. It's like the box of donuts at work: you know you shouldn't and you'll regret it if you do and yet.......

Does anyone here GENUINELY think Frontier are scrapping solo and forcing people into open? Why on Earth does this topic keep coming up again and again?
Where did this ridiculous rumour come from that folk keep complaining about it happening and how they WON'T stand for it?

Probably because of all the posts saying things like "Mobius is sucking the life out of this game. If they don't make it Open only, I'm going to play Star Citizen." or "Open is where the real game is. All you people hiding in Solo are ruining our powerplay. You're 5th columning us."

Every argument on both sides has been made ad nauseum in at least 8 different threads in the last month alone. Apparently people just can't stop the "intellectual masturbation." And some people find forum PvP at least as entertaining as what happens in the game.

Cheers!

 

[bitstorm]

And some people find forum PvP at least as entertaining as what happens in the game.

Cheers!

Hehe, some irony there I spose.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

When was the last time you Pvp'ed and how often do you do it?
Actually, when was the last time you actually did any of the things you're suggesting other ppl do and magically manage to survive in the current build in PvE.

PvP? You mean Powerplay? Um dunno, last time maybe about ~3-4 months ago, to rank 5. Just rank 1 right now, not bothered.

I genuinely did it through ferrying cargo, in solo, with an unshielded T9 for max cargo transport.

Maybe things are a bit harder now I couldn't say.

At that time wasn't involving myself in Powerplay per se, just wanted Li Yong-Rui rank 5 for the exploration bonus.

I'd gone out exploring specifically to get Elite exploration. Came back, PP'd to rank 5 on a Sunday afternoon then handed in the data in Li Yong-Rui territory to get permits (4-5 million/permit), then elsewhere. Did it all in solo obviously, didn't want to lose exploration data since it was a 2 week's worth.

I have done this on two CMDRs (to get Elite explorer on both) Actually I think I made a post about it when I got back since some folk were claiming Li Yong-Rui bonus is completely pointless, while for me it's been the best out of the lot.

I have no idea if all that is of any relevance.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

This thread is utterly ridiculous.

Does anyone here GENUINELY think Frontier are scrapping solo and forcing people into open? Why on Earth does this topic keep coming up again and again?

Where did this ridiculous rumour come from that folk keep complaining about it happening and how they WON'T stand for it?

It's like trying to discuss a genuinely interesting topic with Chicken Little or something.

I just wanted an answer to my question, any forthcoming?
If you don't mind.

 

[bitstorm]

I just wanted an answer to my question, any forthcoming?

see above

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

see above

Ooops, missed that, timing I guess.
Try it now...things change.
Don't base ideals on things when the game constantly evolves.
All I'm saying.

Do you PvP?
I don't though I play in Open, in case you think it's a trap, I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Laste]

I would suggest to you, that you spend your time either with the kids or wife, or playing the game. Not writing a huge wall of text about nothing.

There are far more important things to talk about, within the elite universe and indeed the wider world.

I've wasted enough time already on this.

This has to be the best example of people he probably doesn't want to interact with.

 

[bitstorm]

Try it now...things change.
Don't base ideals on things when the game constantly evolves.
All I'm saying.

Do you PvP?
I don't though I play in Open, in case you think it's a trap, I'm genuinely curious.

Well I'll say no on that, since I don't PvP in the terms I think you mean.

Do I PvP?

I have been attacked and have defended myself when it was right to do so, or alternatively done a runner. So maybe I do actually PvP?

Last time it happened I lost a Cutter (of all things) in Shinrarta. Arguably it was my own fault (yes I'm stupid) it was right near the station, I set the docking computer then walked away, came back and was being shot at (no idea alpha strike?), just alt-tabbed back in to see myself shieldless bounce off the side of the station and explode (docking comp deactivated due to being attacked see).

Back in Cutter made my way all the way back to Shinrarta and at that point I had to make a decision, I wanted to get to Shinrarta but with a Cutter I did not want to risk another loss, I had no idea what to expect when jumping in.

So previously I might have just dropped to solo then and there, seeing the whole thing as a big inconvenience, but instead I went to an adjacent system and bought Cobra.

Equipped it with a sort of blockade running build, fast, shields, chaff, heatsinks, no weapons etc... And jumped back into Shinrarta ready to play cat and mouse with a wing of players. Actually saw nothing but I was all ready to run their blockade!!!

Anyway got the the station without issue, Cutter is still in the adjacent system as we speak.

So sure I could have huffed and puffed and dropped to another mode, but I tell you what, despite encountering nothing it was the most exciting "no event" Shinararta run I've ever done!!

Sure maybe I have a different view of this than others but stuff like that can be fun if you just run with it and accept it as part of the game, it's gameplay of a level of excitement you won't get elsewhere. It's just ED makes it all too easy and in some places actually encourages you to sidestep it all. And it's when ED encourages that it becomes an issue.


On me PvPing, I quite fancy giving it a go but haven't yet. I wouldn't want to drop into some hardcore PvP zone to do it with some hugely unbalanced meta, just something with some lesser skilled pilots like me and for fun.

Rank is semi-professional at CQC FWIW.

 

[Crusina Luachra]

I would suggest to you, that you spend your time either with the kids or wife, or playing the game. Not writing a huge wall of text about nothing.

There are far more important things to talk about, within the elite universe and indeed the wider world.

How else would solo players be able to dismiss every other opinion they don't agree with while simultaneously complaining about how everyone apparently gangs up on them as they create another overly dramatic post for no real reason?

It's a double standard of course. That they demand people cater to them, while never do the same for others. But what can you do? In all honesty, all we can pray for at this point is that for ONCE these people follow their own damn advice and stick to solo mode and NOT interact with other players and bother us with their incessant bullcrap.