Cheap commodities being...useless?

[Caramel Clown]

So I was thinking about all the cheap stuff that we have at our disposal, and how literally nobody trade it thanks to laughably little value per ton. Currently only very expensive commodities make sense while doing point to point hauling.
What if commodities were not measured in strictly 1 ton per unit, but had different mass for every specific commodity.
1 unit of rare ore can take over full 1t cargo space, but cost alot. At the same time 1 unit of very cheap commodity could be 0.1 or even 0.05 ton, so you could fit 10-20 of those in 1t cargo space and bringing profit/t more in line with the most attractive goods.
I understand that it's very easy to mess up this system, by equalizing all goods and making trading even more boring. But something should be done, there's just no point in having so many commodity types. It's a wasted potential.
Thoughts on proposed solution?

 

[dynamicbob]

With colony building / system upgrades and more states i see smaller scale every day goods being important to system development but a big but to not making it boring is the background sim needs to be ripped open and expanded in a big way

 

[metatheurgist]

Ya, I think there's a bit too much supply of stuff. I've never worked out if a world could actually supply the amount on the markets but it seems a bit wrong. If stuff was seasonal we'd be forced to move around a bit. If there wasn't always the ability to fill out a T9 with palladium we'd be forced to consider also taking some lesser commodities. Traders would actually have to plan routes and think about more than A->B'ing two commodities at a time. But I think that ship has cruised, players are now used to the profits that trading brings and every other profession (except for exploring) has been inflated to match it. You won't be able to turn it back now.

 

[Caramel Clown]

Ya, I think there's a bit too much supply of stuff. I've never worked out if a world could actually supply the amount on the markets but it seems a bit wrong. If stuff was seasonal we'd be forced to move around a bit. If there wasn't always the ability to fill out a T9 with palladium we'd be forced to consider also taking some lesser commodities. Traders would actually have to plan routes and think about more than A->B'ing two commodities at a time. But I think that ship has cruised, players are now used to the profits that trading brings and every other profession (except for exploring) has been inflated to match it. You won't be able to turn it back now.

I wouldn't call my plan 'going back'...it's moving forward.
At least in my head...

 

[sic]

we use it for missions sometimes.. no?

 

[Kaid]

I agree with the OP but please remember some of the cheaper commodities are used by players when they are starting out with a 1,000Cr and a sidewinder you need to be able to buy stuff that costs hundreds of credits rather than thousands.

 

[Weps]

Yes, missions are the easiest solution to make cheap commodities useful. That, or small scale, regular community goals.

Give me an objective to haul supply 100000t of bauxite, in multiple shipments, and I'll do it, for the right monetary reward of course.

 

[OutandBack]

I use the cheap stuff all the time. I can't afford to buy 80T of Palladium @12K /ton so I will top off my hold with scrap metal or basic meds.
Most of my AtoBtoA routes. A pays well for rocks and scrap and B pays well for basic meds, pwr gens, food so use both for now.

 

[dayrth]

Cheap stuff is already useful. It is needed for those just starting out who can't afford to trade in anything expensive. I recently started a second account and found myself trading in food, textiles and even biowaste, until I had built up some capital.

 

[Fox White]

Work on the BGS could really help the market. I really hate how it is now in that metals and slaves are the only thing worth trading. There is a great idea behind what we have but it is lost in the realm of "thats good enough for now". Im honestly a little sad that the Import/Export list has absolutely no bering on trade and that the UI for trading looks so terrible when compared with the concept art.

It would take a good team some time to sit down and iron out the details but that is FD's call not ours. Hopefully they listen to those whom want it changed though and maybe 2.4 will be for BGS & UI overhaul.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Cheap stuff is already useful. It is needed for those just starting out who can't afford to trade in anything expensive. I recently started a second account and found myself trading in food, textiles and even biowaste, until I had built up some capital.

In the original Elite, waste was sometimes at a negative cost. So if you had no money at all, you could still take a full load and make a small profit, even from dumping it.

 

[bamber]

So I was thinking about all the cheap stuff that we have at our disposal, and how literally nobody trade it thanks to laughably little value per ton. Currently only very expensive commodities make sense while doing point to point hauling.
What if commodities were not measured in strictly 1 ton per unit, but had different mass for every specific commodity.
1 unit of rare ore can take over full 1t cargo space, but cost alot. At the same time 1 unit of very cheap commodity could be 0.1 or even 0.05 ton, so you could fit 10-20 of those in 1t cargo space and bringing profit/t more in line with the most attractive goods.
I understand that it's very easy to mess up this system, by equalizing all goods and making trading even more boring. But something should be done, there's just no point in having so many commodity types. It's a wasted potential.
Thoughts on proposed solution?

Load of rubbish
.
A number of thing are useless in Elite - one thing that is useless is an empty cargo hold - I will carry anything if it will make a profit (including scrap and rubbish). I fact my own Best profit calculator will find me the best mix of cargo for the money I have to fill cargo space available
.
Even carrying scrap is worthwhile it pays for your fuel if nothing else
.
I quite often have missed out on the 3000Cr palladium and carried a silver and colbalt mix instead as its worth more to me

 

[Sapyx]

The "cheap stuff" may not have a good cr/ton profit, but it usually has an excellent %ROI compared to the expensive stuff. Take the two extremes: Gold, you buy it for, say, Cr9200 and sell it for Cr9900. That's a reasonable 700 cr/ton, but a miserable 7.6% ROI.

Biowaste, on the other hand, you buy it for Cr20 and sell it for Cr90. That's an awful 70 cr/ton but a super-excellent 350% ROI.

The ROI on your deliveries is only important when cash is your limiting factor, rather than cargo space. Unfortunately, in this game, most players have more than enough cash most of the time to not make it an issue. The %ROI is only therefore relevant in the following situations:
- Newbies just starting out.
- An intermediate-level player with a freshly upgraded ship, particularly a big trade ship; they've spent all their spare cash on outfitting the ship and have either literally no cash left, or only a few thousand credits remaining after taking into account the rebuy balance.

Either way, if you need to turn your Cr3000 into Cr10000, buying the cheaper stuff is the way to go.

I do think there's way too much supply of the higher-end commodities. It "shouldn't" be that easy to fill up the cargo hold of a bulk carrier with palladium, and especially not with slaves, except perhaps in a few systems with special (and maybe temporary) circumstances. Profitable trading should be a thinking person's game: "OK, I'm at A and I've bought all 70t of X. I'll make good profit taking it to B. What else does B want that A sells that I can fill up the rest of my hold with?"

 

[AcademicDust894]

You might find this interesting.

Everything You Need to Know About Trading
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-td2wGThBQA

 

[Patrick_68000]

Little brooks make great rivers

 

[Bokugo]

The "cheap stuff" may not have a good cr/ton profit, but it usually has an excellent %ROI compared to the expensive stuff. Take the two extremes: Gold, you buy it for, say, Cr9200 and sell it for Cr9900. That's a reasonable 700 cr/ton, but a miserable 7.6% ROI.

Biowaste, on the other hand, you buy it for Cr20 and sell it for Cr90. That's an awful 70 cr/ton but a super-excellent 350% ROI.

The ROI on your deliveries is only important when cash is your limiting factor, rather than cargo space. Unfortunately, in this game, most players have more than enough cash most of the time to not make it an issue. The %ROI is only therefore relevant in the following situations:
- Newbies just starting out.
- An intermediate-level player with a freshly upgraded ship, particularly a big trade ship; they've spent all their spare cash on outfitting the ship and have either literally no cash left, or only a few thousand credits remaining after taking into account the rebuy balance.

Either way, if you need to turn your Cr3000 into Cr10000, buying the cheaper stuff is the way to go.

I do think there's way too much supply of the higher-end commodities. It "shouldn't" be that easy to fill up the cargo hold of a bulk carrier with palladium, and especially not with slaves, except perhaps in a few systems with special (and maybe temporary) circumstances. Profitable trading should be a thinking person's game: "OK, I'm at A and I've bought all 70t of X. I'll make good profit taking it to B. What else does B want that A sells that I can fill up the rest of my hold with?"

Why would someone willfully go after the lesser profit because of a higher ROI? Cost doesn't really matter, profit is profit. If a newb can only afford 1 ton of gold but 5 tons of biowaste, of course they are going to go for gold because it pays more per trip. Not to mention cargo hold limits on starter ships are pretty low.
Commodities need to actually have a use other than spawning and disappearing into nothing. Systems need to actually pay for things they need at a premium otherwise no one is going to help them.

 

[stooger]

Half-measure but maybe somthing like different types of cargo racks? Like in X rebirth where you have different cargo haulers for different types of goods. Cargo racks for liquid state materials, gas, ores, food, grain, whatever... then balance it a bit by making different cargo racks hold different amounts of goods. Size 2 standard cargo rack will hold 4t of ore but size 2 liquid cargo rack will hold 32t of beer thanks to high compression_or_whatever_to_make_it_beliveable.

Making expensive commodities more rare is the other option but it will still be the same.. can't get 200t of palladium then I will take next best thing and most of cheaper goods still won't be good for antyhing.

 

[Weps]

One thing to ponder about is that the prices of these commodities have never been revisited since Beta, IIRC. Or if they have, the adjustments have been minor.

On the other hand, the game has seen some incredible equipment inflation since then, all artificial, designed to keep the players on the treadmill. Remember how an Anaconda used to cost around 4 million in Beta? That's about its weight in gold. Now it costs almost 40 times its weight in gold.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Wow, anaconda for 4mil?
Talk about inflation!

Trading low end goods is pretty pointless really. Trading anything is actually mostly pointless, except profit.
I know the galaxy is too big for a real life market, but surely someone can think of something to simulate supply and demand better.

 

[captain slow]

In the majority of games that allow trading in space, the "best" trading ships carry 10s or 100s of thousands of tons/tonnes/whatever of goods. In Elite you can carry significantly less than 1000 tons (often less than 100). A market wouldn't have millions of tons of Gold (and even the uber rich couldn't afford it if they did) but may have millions of tons of something much cheaper (and that you can afford). In Elite, once you can afford the biggest ship, you can pretty much afford to fill it with what you like, as the holds are so tiny.