Powerplay Cycle 43 PP Commentary

[the100thmonkey]

The whole point of having a Player Minor Faction is to spread it enough for it to become the next Power. If you don't want to participate in PP, why do you have a PMF?

Is it?

The Mercs, Communism Interstellar and other groups were setting up bubbles of systems well before FD accepted player-run minor factions and implemented them into the game. You've said above that Powerplay is the only thing in the game that's interesting for you. Perhaps you're missing something in other players' motivations.

 

[Derthek]

If Canonn is the first Minor faction to be offered a role as a Power, we will also be the first minor faction to refuse that offer.

Canonn will NEVER be a power.

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Is it?

The Mercs, Communism Interstellar and other groups were setting up bubbles of systems well before FD accepted player-run minor factions and implemented them into the game. You've said above that Powerplay is the only thing in the game that's interesting for you. Perhaps you're missing something in other players' motivations.

Absolutely the truth. Our groups have been around longer, and have organic start ups.

 

[LordZoltan]

Canonn will NEVER be a power.

Completely right.

And this myopia from some that PP is the only game in town. Wow.

 

[Martin Schou]

While the thread is completely off the rails, I figure I might as well continue the detour.

We (Alliance Office of Statistics and the /r/EliteMahon subreddit) realised quite a while ago, that one of the likely reasons some of our expansions were heavily opposed, despite being nowhere near any other powers, was player groups. We spent some time looking for the "culprits", but a 30 light year sphere typically contains between 150 and 200 populated systems, which makes it a very daunting task to do so.

We want to talk to the groups, partly because we want to figure out why they're opposing us (maybe they misunderstood something and we can rectify it) and partly because we want to know what they consider their territory. If they want a 30 light year sphere without us in (and we're not there already of course), that's fine - but we'd like to know where that sphere is, so we can plan around it. Having these lines of communications is important, because it also allows us to explain, for example, that we'd like to use a system in their area as a CC sponge, but have no intention of trying to expand it. If they're okay with that, we go ahead, if not we'll find somewhere else.

Where it gets annoying, is when a player group doesn't reach out to a power to explain that they will be opposing an expansion and why. This is particularly annoying for me personally, when I'm suddenly asked why there are several wings of Mahon pilots opposing an expansion somewhere, and my answer has to be "I have no idea" and I then have to spend my time trying to put out diplomatic fires. I don't mind that the groups fly the Mahon flag (it makes sense - Mahon can oppose 90% of all PowerPlay powers), and even if I did mind it's not like I can do anything about it - I'd just like them to reach out to the power in question, either on reddit or on the PowerPlay forums, and preferably before the shooting starts.

 

[Derthek]

Martin, this is exactly why we dont want to be apart of powerplay. You have people running around uncontrolled, doing what ever they please with a group you take pride in. If Canonn was asked to become a power, we would say no. Hell no, in fact. We, the players and dedicated members of the group, would lose our power. We'd have fifth column, people abusing our CC, it would be hell. We want no part in that.

Have you ever considered that minor factions around you just DONT want to be apart of powerplay? The ugly map, the fact that powerplay buttons are highlighted in the cockpit as if it's something special. The whole thing just reeks, and players lose any real power in the game. You're forced to put up with idiots that fortify the wrong system, you can't travel freely, it's a horrid grind.

Powerplay offers nothing to an established player group.

 

[fergal]

Seeing a power's name on my system would break my heart. We own it, not some NPC. I run the discord, PG, and our Reddit. Not some NPC. I completely emphasizes with any minor faction that feels that threat from powerplay.

Do you want to know why I'm bent out of shape? We're powerless. You have no idea how frustrating it is take care of permissions on a website, discord, in-game private group, our reddit, and our endless google sheets. I dedicate at least 1 hour daily to Canonn related things before i ever get a chance to actually start playing the game. There was a time when I spent 6 hours sending messages to more than 100 people on this forum, with only 5 people per message, and 60 seconds between each message, to get the word out to my group. This was before we had teamspeak, a website, or discord. I would spend my lunches with a sandwich in 1 hand and my phone in the other.

So, yes. When I see another faction like Mercs, Truckers, or the commies being invaded by powerplay, I drop what I'm doing to help. There may be a day when Canonn needs help and it's important for us powerless factions (who make up a HUGE portion of the community) to stick together.

I'd be willing to bet I've put more time into my group than most powerplayers spend on theirs, and yet we're treated like second class. Once we get freedom fighters, the gloves are off.

I think you are quite ignorant of how much time is spent by many players trying to organise their power.

Is it?

The Mercs, Communism Interstellar and other groups were setting up bubbles of systems well before FD accepted player-run minor factions and implemented them into the game. You've said above that Powerplay is the only thing in the game that's interesting for you. Perhaps you're missing something in other players' motivations.

These groups are not Player Minor Factions. They are Minor Factions.
As for missing other Players motivations, I'm sure I am.
I see nothing interesting about the UAs and all they have done for me is break 5 stations in the area Archon Delaine occupies, and now we can grind endless hours milking barnicles for 2 meta alloys, to fill a bottomless pit in the hopes of curing the stations.

You don't like PP, I don't like UAs, maybe I should make some polls, and write some rants on their posts?

If Canonn is the first Minor faction to be offered a role as a Power, we will also be the first minor faction to refuse that offer.

Canonn will NEVER be a power.

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Absolutely the truth. Our groups have been around longer, and have organic start ups.

This is beginning to sound elitist (no pun intended), your players have more of a right to be in a part of space than any player supporting a power, because you have been around for longer.

Completely right.

And this myopia from some that PP is the only game in town. Wow.

Please show me where on the Galaxy map I can see these systems you "own"
Maybe this information is in a hidden spreadsheet of yours, its hardly available to anyone else who plays the game.

 

[LordZoltan]

Why should player factions, or just non-pp aligned minor factions have to explain why we're opposing a power?


That's exactly what I mean - the assumption that just because a power isn't in a system means that it must need one.

Independence means not allowing a major faction to use a system and label it. A fed-aligned player faction has far less reason to be annoyed about a fed power, of course. But the powers should assume they are going to be opposed by independents if coming into a system they have a presence in - not be surprised and take humbrage when they are!

 

[fergal]

Why should player factions, or just non-pp aligned minor factions have to explain why we're opposing a power?


That's exactly what I mean - the assumption that just because a power isn't in a system means that it must need one.

Independence means not allowing a major faction to use a system and label it. A fed-aligned player faction has far less reason to be annoyed about a fed power, of course. But the powers should assume they are going to be opposed by independents if coming into a system they have a presence in - not be surprised and take humbrage when they are!

Archon Delaine is an Independent Power. The Kumo Crew isn't a Major Faction. No we don't expect to be attacked by fellow independents.

Power Play demands constant expansion. All populated systems will be under a power. Sorry you hate this, but that's the game.

Every systems has around 4 or 5 Minor Factions in it, there is no way to know if any of them is supported by a player or a group of players.

No Minor Player Faction that we have asked will even give us a list of "their" systems.

What are the systems you are claiming for your own?

 

[Cmdr Basskicker]

Why should player factions, or just non-pp aligned minor factions have to explain why we're opposing a power?


That's exactly what I mean - the assumption that just because a power isn't in a system means that it must need one.

Independence means not allowing a major faction to use a system and label it. A fed-aligned player faction has far less reason to be annoyed about a fed power, of course. But the powers should assume they are going to be opposed by independents if coming into a system they have a presence in - not be surprised and take humbrage when they are!

Do you actually know the effect a powerplay faction has on a controlled/exploited system's BGS?

Depending on the Power there is a 10% buff to certain major faction BGS influence(this requires someone to actually work the BGS for the buffed faction to actually have an effect)

Certain commodities will be removed/increased/decreased in price depending on the Power.

Black markets may be removed/placed in the control system depending on the Power.

The controlling faction is not overthrown, or hindered in it's BGS states in any way whatsoever.

I think if these player minor factions would actually reach out to the organized portion of the powers they would find that they could be allies in the BGS instead of gaining enemies which will have a much longer later effect on the BGS than any power might have done by controlling/exploiting your system.

 

[Martin Schou]

Why should player factions, or just non-pp aligned minor factions have to explain why we're opposing a power?

Because all you're doing otherwise is emboldening the power you're opposing into pushing even harder. All they are seeing is heavy opposition, they'll assume that it's from their regular opponents, and if the expansion fails they'll just try again and harder this time. By not coming forward you are simply going to make sure that the conflict for your system or area continues. And it can easily end up annoying the groups organizing the power whose flag you're using to oppose, because they constantly have to run around trying to figure out why they have pilots attacking powers they've never had any conflicts with.

Basically it boils down to being decent human beings. You can be in an conflict with someone while still being polite about it - especially in a game.

 

[LordZoltan]

Archon Delaine is an Independent Power. The Kumo Crew isn't a Major Faction. No we don't expect to be attacked by fellow independents.

Power Play demands constant expansion. All populated systems will be under a power. Sorry you hate this, but that's the game.

Every systems has around 4 or 5 Minor Factions in it, there is no way to know if any of them is supported by a player or a group of players.

No Minor Player Faction that we have asked will even give us a list of "their" systems.

What are the systems you are claiming for your own?

Sorry I should have said any 'power' not 'major faction'.

Anyway - as I say, this was never personal - and I personally appreciate the engagement you guys have given here. I'll leave this thread be because it's completely O/T and I'm sure you guys want to get on with discussing this week's report and stuff. We were name-dropped, in a pretty low move by Ben R IMHO, that's the only reason we came in.

The distaste for PP for the many players who sit outside it is aimed at the design and mechanic only (for example, there should always be areas where powers can't reach because local hostilities towards them make it impossible); and hopefully FD will adjust it so it's not some runaway thing, and that non-power-affiliated player groups can oppose it without having to pledge temporarily to other powers just to block expansion.

Apologies for the thread jacking.

 

[Derthek]

You guys effectively have a nuclear bomb that we can't fight as non-powers. We don't want your power's name on our (non-power groups) systems. Today, its the Mercs. Tomorrow, it could be Canonn. So we will fight.

I think you are quite ignorant of how much time is spent by many players trying to organise their power.

We (non-power groups) arn't the ones knocking on your door, asking for stuff. I dont care how much effort anyone else puts in, because we're not trying to take your things. We (non-power groups) are just asking for the same respect. Stay out of our (non-power groups) homes. Canonn owns the Varati system, as well as a nearby system that has a procedural generated name. something Ixt. not sure what difference that makes.

I think if these player minor factions would actually reach out to the organized portion of the powers they would find that they could be allies in the BGS instead of gaining enemies which will have a much longer later effect on the BGS than any power might have done by controlling/exploiting your system.

We have 100% control over our BGS, we don't need power play. Any group leader can tell you the ins and outs of powerplay, which gov't types are strong/weak to what power, how a power affects (black markets, slaves, etc) the BGS. We need to know these things in case our homes are invaded. Please don't school me on how to run a faction.

 

[fergal]

You guys effectively have a nuclear bomb that we can't fight as non-powers. We don't want your power's name on our (non-power groups) systems. Today, its the Mercs. Tomorrow, it could be Canonn. So we will fight.

We (non-power groups) arn't the ones knocking on your door, asking for stuff. I dont care how much effort anyone else puts in, because we're not trying to take your things. We (non-power groups) are just asking for the same respect. Stay out of our (non-power groups) homes. Canonn owns the Varati system, as well as a nearby system that has a procedural generated name. something Ixt. not sure what difference that makes.

Why bring up the effort you put in if you don't care about the efforts of anyone else?


Where is your home? What system or 100s of systems are you claiming?
There is no list available in game, or out of game that I am aware of.

 

[Derthek]

Why bring up the effort you put in if you don't care about the efforts of anyone else?


Where is your home? What system or 100s of systems are you claiming?
There is no list available in game, or out of game that I am aware of.

I brought up my effort to prove we're not some backwater group that refuses to get with the times. We're a fully functional community with 300 active members.

I already gave you both systems we (canonn) own. What you seem to fail to grasp, is this is about the Mercs and their systems. I can't give you that list, because I'm not a Merc. But your invasion of a Merc system does not bode will for the rest of us non-power groups.

Again, non-power groups are not invading powers (we can't)
Give non-power groups the same respect and stay out of (in this case) Merc systems.

The Mercs were the FIRST player group to be added to the game. Give them some respect.

 

[fergal]

I brought up my effort to prove we're not some backwater group that refuses to get with the times. We're a fully functional community with 300 active members.

I already gave you both systems we (canonn) own. What you seem to fail to grasp, is this is about the Mercs and their systems. I can't give you that list, because I'm not a Merc. But your invasion of a Merc system does not bode will for the rest of us non-power groups.

Again, non-power groups are not invading powers (we can't)
Give non-power groups the same respect and stay out of (in this case) Merc systems.

The Mercs were the FIRST player group to be added to the game. Give them some respect.

"Again, non-power groups are not invading powers" Really? So explain to me who is flipping all the systems in Antals space to Corporate to ruin their lowered fortification triggers, and make it easier for them to be attacked?

"Give non-power groups the same respect and stay out of (in this case) Merc systems. " I see nothing by disdain for PP and the Powers from you, I'm not sure what you mean by giving the same respect.

"The Mercs were the FIRST player group to be added to the game. Give them some respect." I have nothing against any player group, I'm not complaining about the activities they like to do in game.
I do however dislike the favoritism certain player groups seem to get, particularly when we have still not been allowed to have a Player Minor Faction added to the game after more than 6 months of waiting.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Flipping systems in Antals space? Who's doing this then?

 

[Derthek]

"Again, non-power groups are not invading powers" Really? So explain to me who is flipping all the systems in Antals space to Corporate to ruin their lowered fortification triggers, and make it easier for them to be attacked?

"Give non-power groups the same respect and stay out of (in this case) Merc systems. " I see nothing by disdain for PP and the Powers from you, I'm not sure what you mean by giving the same respect.

"The Mercs were the FIRST player group to be added to the game. Give them some respect." I have nothing against any player group, I'm not complaining about the activities they like to do in game.
I do however dislike the favoritism certain player groups seem to get, particularly when we have still not been allowed to have a Player Minor Faction added to the game after more than 6 months of waiting.

1. Not us. Do you have the answer?

2. We wouldn't be having this convo if non-power groups weren't attacked first. Again, I hate powerplay, not the players. The mechanic is awful, even sandy admits that. Everyone knows, its no secret.

3. Favoritism? powers can expand and infinite distance, non-power groups are stuck to local regions. Powers get weapons (no matter how useless) and they are getting decals at some point. I'm sorry you didnt get your minor faction in game, but that's not what we're talking about here. The issue is that powers have a complete advantage over non-power groups.



The issue is that powerplay is only a tiny population of players, yet they hold the most sway over the BGS with no ability to counter it effectively.

 

[danubezoe]

Wadir is nowhere near your home system, but you still attacked us. You need to have some consistency.

Can't help with consistency, totally random who I work for or against. What I will not do is 5th "exploits" nor other flawed immersionbreaking PP mechanics allthough that would be more effective. Don't blow this out of proportion. You can start a war.... against me, and a few lone commanders, it will be funny to see what Pratt Anavel do to you while you are busy with that.

Good huntin
DZ

 

[fergal]

Flipping systems in Antals space? Who's doing this then?

Well... as far as I know only 3 power like Corporations for expansion and fortification

1. Not us. Do you have the answer?

I do, I didn't even realise the Canon guys were a minor faction until this thread, it isn't you, but lets not pretend player groups are not attacking Powers.

2. We wouldn't be having this convo if non-power groups weren't attacked first. Again, I hate powerplay, not the players. The mechanic is awful, even sandy admits that. Everyone knows, its no secret.

I still don't agree that a non power can be attacked by a power.
That aside, there are 0 systems in the Wadit bubble that have the Mercs of Mikuun as a minor faction.
Are you aware of that?

I had a good look around after we won, and they obviously wouldn't tell us what system was "theirs" because none of them are.

There was however one system that had a Dukes of Mikunn in it, so who is it that was getting "invaded", if you don't even know what group it was what chance do any of the powers have?

3. Favoritism? powers can expand and infinite distance, non-power groups are stuck to local regions. Powers get weapons (no matter how useless) and they are getting decals at some point. I'm sorry you didnt get your minor faction in game, but that's not what we're talking about here. The issue is that powers have a complete advantage over non-power groups.
The issue is that powerplay is only a tiny population of players, yet they hold the most sway over the BGS with no ability to counter it effectively.

PP is a part of the game to play, I just don't understand how you are comparing the BGS to PP.
How would I even know when your PMF is expanding to another system to be able to oppose it?

 

[Carradin]

Why should player factions, or just non-pp aligned minor factions have to explain why we're opposing a power?

People are usually reasonable. If you talk to a power and explain why you don't want a certain system to be under their control, there's at least a chance that they'll back off, saving both you and them considerable resources. For example, despite not having been terribly active lately, I know of three locations off-hand that my power (Mahon) is deliberately avoiding because we're aware of player factions in those areas that prefer to be left alone, and in several other cases where we noticed a player faction in an area we were considering for expansion, we tried to contact them prior to expanding.

So basically, it is in your own best interest to communicate. Just sitting there being angry will only lead to you constantly having to fend off expansion attempts, perhaps eventually failing and having the power come in anyway. Not because they were after you, specifically, but because they did not know you were there. It is just common sense, plain and simple, and good policy too. It isn't guaranteed that a power will care about your objections, but if they do heed them, everyone is much better off, and even if they don't, nothing has really changed for the worse.