General / Off-Topic privacy vs tax dodging

Logically? No.
Morally? No.

Privacy is being able to eat, sleep and.. eat without being snooped on, it's not about setting up shell companies in BVI to buy properties in Barbados or having offshore funds and investments to avoid tax.
That's the point. Offshore companies that obscure their owners and assets have legitimate uses for privacy in the same way that encrypted phones and chat have legitimate uses.

However, both offshore companies and encryption can also be used for illegal things. In the case of offshore companies, they can be used for hiding money from the taxman, laundering the proceeds of crime or other nefarious deeds. In the case of encryption, it can be used for crime, child abuse pictures and terrorism to name a few applications.

Many people make the argument that the legitimate legal uses of encryption, and in particular it's use in preventing a state snooping on it's citizens, outweigh the negatives.

Offshore companies have a legitimate purpose and can prevent the state snooping on the financial affairs of it's citizens, so logically, if you accept the argument for encryption limiting a state's powers, you should also accept the existence of offshore companies limiting state's powers.
 
That's the point. Offshore companies that obscure their owners and assets have legitimate uses for privacy in the same way that encrypted phones and chat have legitimate uses.

However, both offshore companies and encryption can also be used for illegal things. In the case of offshore companies, they can be used for hiding money from the taxman, laundering the proceeds of crime or other nefarious deeds. In the case of encryption, it can be used for crime, child abuse pictures and terrorism to name a few applications.

Many people make the argument that the legitimate legal uses of encryption, and in particular it's use in preventing a state snooping on it's citizens, outweigh the negatives.

Offshore companies have a legitimate purpose and can prevent the state snooping on the financial affairs of it's citizens, so logically, if you accept the argument for encryption limiting a state's powers, you should also accept the existence of offshore companies limiting state's powers.

What we are discussing is secrecy. That's not privacy. Close, but not quite the same.

When you setup a shell company you are not after privacy, you are after secrecy.
 
What we are discussing is secrecy. That's not privacy. Close, but not quite the same.

When you setup a shell company you are not after privacy, you are after secrecy.
Good point, they are different.
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Privacy requires secrecy, I can't think of a situation when you can have privacy without some level of secrecy. If you can't keep you affairs secret how can you keep them private?
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One of the arguments against strong encryption is that lawful government action is impeded. If a drug dealer has the ability to communicate with his gang in a way the government cannot intercept, it puts the authorities at a disadvantage.
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Governments don't like this so have proposed things like back doors for law enforcement, or the use of weaker algorithms.
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Some people have objected to this for various well argued reasons. The primary argument is that citizens should have a right to privacy even from the state. It is not sufficient that the government promises only to look if it has to as governments have a history of using their legitimate powers for illegitimate ends. The only way to guarantee that is to make it impossible for governments (or anybody else) to break the citizen's secrecy. The fact that some may use unbreakable secrecy for nefarious purposes is not a good enough reason to outweigh the shielding effect unbreakable encryption gives citizens against government over reach.
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I'm contending that some of those arguments apply equally well to "anonymous companies".
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For example I might want to use an anonymous company to conceal my interest in a parcel of land I want to buy, but don't want my competitors to know what I'm planning. maybe i'm a film star and want to buy a house in the country without having the press know. Maybe I'm a middle class Jew who wants to move his money somewhere safe as I'm worried about things that angry politician with a silly moustache is saying (no this is not godwin's law!).
 
My point was that if you argue for "strong" privacy", i.e. that the government should not have the ability to view the data of citizens under any circumstances (e.g. the person is a proven terrorist and the information in their phone may help prevent further loss of life) you must also allow that it is not morally wrong to use "offshore" techniques to prevent the government examining someone's finances.

And I never said the government shouldn't ever see the "data of citizens". Just not all types of data and especially not in an Orwellian fashion: all data, all the time. Also, one must accept that for any given crime, there will always be cases that can never be apprehended at all.

In the current case, apparently most of the deals have been technically legal. If they were illegal, yes, they would have gone unnoticed for long, but when a leak like this happens, then criminal investigation and prosecution could begin immediately. Instead, we have this mess where the deeds are considers morally wrong but not against the law.


Now regarding the broader topic of encryption and privacy, consider this thought experiment: imagine if there were technology to read people's brains. Something like a scanner you walk through and the device could know anything you are have been thinking about in the last 24 hours. Should a government, or anyone for that matter, ever be allowed to perform this procedure on someone against their will? Invade the most private area, one's own thoughts?

Now communication is just an extension of thought. Two people talk to each other so one thought can be transmitted to the other. Therefore if I see the private thoughts as a necessary sanctuary (which I absolutely do) that should never be breached against someone's will, I could extend this to any form of communication, i.e. transmission of thought, and private data, i.e. external memorization of thought.

Obviously I am in a minority with this opinion, and quite matter of factly the transmission and external of thought is not such a sanctuary by default. Hence encryption - a means to technologically ensure what we as a society have decided not to protect.

I am well aware of the ramifications if one were to follow this thought through to its very end: that private data should never be (legally) accessible to anyone but its owner (and ownership of data is also a difficult conundrum) would also mean the state would be forbidden from listening in on any communication, including of, say, known terrorists.

Well, here's the thing: it'll always be an arms race. Encryption and methods of information exchance usually improve slightly (i.e. years) ahead of the means to break the encryption. Heck, in lots of cases it is just a question of the effort (i.e. computing power * time) required to crack a scheme, and therefore better hardware allows easier breaking of encryption, but also stronger encryption that is even harder to break. Hence most surveillance (and post facto investigation) rely on man-in-the-middle, spoofing, open security holes, or even just social engineering (e.g. tricking someone into letting you in, detaining or even torturing* a suspect until they tell you their password), in other words: the very same methods that any illegal attack would utilize. Thus anything that lets the police in also lets the criminals in.

I am not sure if there is a solution to this. Maybe this arms race will just go on forever. But right now not giving in to any demand for backdoors etc. is just asking for the next wave of viruses, ransomware attacks to make use of etc.


*Here is a terrifying thought: beyond being simply cruel and inhumane, torture is usually regarded as ineffective. The tortured may end up telling you anything you want to hear just to make it stop, admitting to crimes they never comitted, listing accomplices for crimes that never happened. But if torture happens to retrieve a password, the torturer could immediately check the validity of the password and only stop once they have received the true password. Which means in this situation torture is an effective method to gain access, because the victim can never end it without giving the torturer what they desire.
 
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And I never said the government shouldn't ever see the "data of citizens". Just not all types of data and especially not in an Orwellian fashion: all data, all the time. Also, one must accept that for any given crime, there will always be cases that can never be apprehended at all.

In the current case, apparently most of the deals have been technically legal. If they were illegal, yes, they would have gone unnoticed for long, but when a leak like this happens, then criminal investigation and prosecution could begin immediately. Instead, we have this mess where the deeds are considers morally wrong but not against the law.

If technically legal then why the need for secrecy?

Found this through the BBC News site. A few days ago, this was an actual article on BBC News which suggested that American investors might simply get adequate returns by moving their money around the various US states. That has since been deleted and replaced by an outside link. Presumably so the BBC can deny responsibility for its content. (Nice if we could all claim the same protection :D)

http://www.pravdareport.com/world/americas/04-04-2016/134052-panama_papers-0/

The Panama papers do not include any names of US officials. Looks interesting, does it not? One shall assume that the United States of America is home to world's most honest, incorruptible officials, who have absolutely no money anywhere and no offshore accounts either. -
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Or the inference may be that US based people are simply better at hiding it.

On a related note (can't find it now though) the US has the best tax collection record in the world (% gathered of total that should be paid). Of all countries, Belgium was the worst.
 
If technically legal then why the need for secrecy?

- Some of the deeds are indeed illegal.
- The perpetrators may themselves not always know whether something is legal or not.
- If the practice becomes widely known, it is certain to be made illegal sooner or later (a bit like how people using exploits in games prefer not to talk about them too much in public, lest the developer decides to fix them).
- The perpetrators want to avoid the PR backlash.
- And ultimately some of them probably know and would normally agree that it is morally wrong, yet feel compelled by greed to do it anyway.

The Panama papers do not include any names of US officials. Looks interesting, does it not? One shall assume that the United States of America is home to world's most honest, incorruptible officials, who have absolutely no money anywhere and no offshore accounts either. -

Maybe the US customers of this company are stored in a different database and the leak does not cover that one. Or maybe the channel through which it was leaked at one point removed all traces of US customers from the data set (maybe someone along the line would themselves be on the list otherwise).
 
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Good point, they are different.
:
Privacy requires secrecy, I can't think of a situation when you can have privacy without some level of secrecy. If you can't keep you affairs secret how can you keep them private?
:
One of the arguments against strong encryption is that lawful government action is impeded. If a drug dealer has the ability to communicate with his gang in a way the government cannot intercept, it puts the authorities at a disadvantage.
:
Governments don't like this so have proposed things like back doors for law enforcement, or the use of weaker algorithms.
:
Some people have objected to this for various well argued reasons. The primary argument is that citizens should have a right to privacy even from the state. It is not sufficient that the government promises only to look if it has to as governments have a history of using their legitimate powers for illegitimate ends. The only way to guarantee that is to make it impossible for governments (or anybody else) to break the citizen's secrecy. The fact that some may use unbreakable secrecy for nefarious purposes is not a good enough reason to outweigh the shielding effect unbreakable encryption gives citizens against government over reach.
:
I'm contending that some of those arguments apply equally well to "anonymous companies".
:
For example I might want to use an anonymous company to conceal my interest in a parcel of land I want to buy, but don't want my competitors to know what I'm planning. maybe i'm a film star and want to buy a house in the country without having the press know. Maybe I'm a middle class Jew who wants to move his money somewhere safe as I'm worried about things that angry politician with a silly moustache is saying (no this is not godwin's law!).

I think it's more important to focus on the social implications and morality.

A drug dealer really isn't a big issue, the illegality of drugs creates the eponymous drug dealer. If drugs were a controlled and taxed substance and funding focused on helping those with drug problems the drug dealer wouldn't even be an issue.

A lot of "crime control" methods are woefully inadequate, but that isn't to say that knocking down the walls of privacy would fix them. Typically I find that there are alternate solutions people can use that don't require totalitarian or draconian methods of policing or law.

Not to say that I think encryption is necessary - just that the endless surveillance is unnecessary.

I also disagree that shell companies are required, because of competitive interests or to avoid the press - or anything. Companies are businesses, not people - and as such they should be completely transparent. I also disagree that it is an issue of privacy - someone wanting to hide from the press buying a property in Barbados. I think that is secrecy, not Privacy.

Secrecy is me not wanting the government to know where I live, Privacy is me not wanting them to be looking through my windows.

Capitalism is one of the single biggest threats to social order of this or any generation and the ramifications of capitalist greed are only just starting to surface, sending the right type of message to these people is important and requires the message to be unified by the Public. There should be nobody supporting the absent billions not contributed to the public while there are people struggling to live on the streets of our "great nations".
 
- Some of the deeds are indeed illegal.
- The perpetrators may themselves not always know whether something is legal or not.
- If the practice becomes widely known, it is certain to be made illegal sooner or later (a bit like how people using exploits in games prefer not to talk about them too much in public, lest the developer decides to fix them).
- The perpetrators want to avoid the PR backlash.
- And ultimately some of them probably know and would normally agree that it is morally wrong, yet feel compelled by greed to do it anyway.



Maybe the US customers of this company are stored in a different database and the leak does not cover that one. Or maybe the channel through which it was leaked at one point removed all traces of US customers from the data set (maybe someone along the line would themselves be on the list otherwise).

Supposition.

Ignorance is no excuse as anyone who has ever been fined for speeding with tell you.

As for the US I'm sure your continued suppositions are as good as any other.

The issue was raised by BBC News.

I don't personally indulge in too much supposition without evidence and we don't have any here at all.
 
President Putin has denied "any element of corruption" over the Panama Papers leaks, saying his opponents are trying to destabilise Russia.
Mr Putin was speaking for the first time since the leak of millions of confidential documents from the Panama-based law firm Mossack Fonseca.
The papers revealed a number of offshore companies owned by close associates of Mr Putin.
They suggest the companies may have been used for money laundering.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35989560

_89125301_putingrab.png
 
Well, as my old granny one told me. "Don't write anything you wouldn't want anyone else to read."
The same thing goes for don't do anything you wouldn't want anyone else to know about.

I do the first but sadly not the second. [woah] If even in only a minor way.
As for tax dodging: Funny how it is mostly the rich bar stewards that think it is all right and the intent of the law does not apply to them. Nor does it mostly. [mad]
 
The subject is "does supporting string privacy logically mean you shouldn't mind about anonymous offshore companies'". Note not tax evasion or money laundering, we should be able to agree they are bad, just the existence of anonymous off shore companies
You have two different issues here.

1: Privacy and encryption.

2: Off shore assists.

Ok, Privacy and encryption: The Apple case: For years Apple had back doors for all of their software. However: With the I-phones, these back doors were questioned and so Apple endeavoured to make their phones, truly private and sold them as such. Something the buying public CAN believe in. Then came this case, where the FBI wanted and demanded access to a phone. Apple have a duty to it customers and so said no. This could have been handled better, discreetly etc. Plus, as proved, the entry code, is NOT the only way to access the data.

Personally: It is my belief, that whatever electronic communication I use, can be seen, read, collected and stored and if I am silly enough to believe; that just because it may be illegal to do so, it won't happen. Then I am being naive. It can happen, it will happen and no laws will ever stop it, learn to live with it and have nothing to hide.

Off shore assists? In short, this is theft. Theft from the state, in most cases. The clue is in the name. Why would you wish to hide assists? Greed, plain and simple. Panama has offered this service for over a century and so has many other countries. Why is everybody pretending to be shocked by these revelations? There are many ways to justify hiding assists; the best I heard, is not agreeing with the way the tax is spent etc..

So we have two different subjects here; erroneously linked by the OP.

I notice Dave's buddy has not mentioned his mates role in all of this, but then as Dave says, 'This is a private matter' and enforced this with a D notice to the press. Which I am glad to see, is not working that well.

So lets talk about overseas trust funds and investments, something opposed by our glorious leader, he chose to block acting upon, when voting for new laws to deal with overseas tax loop holes.
 
Well, any hardware and software developer (individual or company) who genuinely cares about security would damn well not want to put any backdoors = planned security breaches into their products.

It's often a feature of recoverability or reliability.

The whole iPhone thing is misdirection. If you own an iPhone have you ever recovered it? You enter your Apple ID password and - wham - your phone is back. What does that tell you about backdoors, grasshopper? You don't need backdoors if you can do a full system recovery from backup with just a password; that tells you that 1) the data is there, offline, where it can be attacked offline 2) Encryption which can be performed offline can be parallelized offline and it's "game over, man"

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Well, as my old granny one told me. "Don't write anything you wouldn't want anyone else to read."

My accountant says there are only two kinds of people in hell:
- People who were caught in the act
- People who kept emails and selfies of the act
 
And I never said the government shouldn't ever see the "data of citizens". Just not all types of data and especially not in an Orwellian fashion: all data, all the time. Also, one must accept that for any given crime, there will always be cases that can never be apprehended at all.

In the current case, apparently most of the deals have been technically legal. If they were illegal, yes, they would have gone unnoticed for long, but when a leak like this happens, then criminal investigation and prosecution could begin immediately. Instead, we have this mess where the deeds are considers morally wrong but not against the law.


Now regarding the broader topic of encryption and privacy, consider this thought experiment: imagine if there were technology to read people's brains. Something like a scanner you walk through and the device could know anything you are have been thinking about in the last 24 hours. Should a government, or anyone for that matter, ever be allowed to perform this procedure on someone against their will? Invade the most private area, one's own thoughts?

Now communication is just an extension of thought. Two people talk to each other so one thought can be transmitted to the other. Therefore if I see the private thoughts as a necessary sanctuary (which I absolutely do) that should never be breached against someone's will, I could extend this to any form of communication, i.e. transmission of thought, and private data, i.e. external memorization of thought.

Obviously I am in a minority with this opinion, and quite matter of factly the transmission and external of thought is not such a sanctuary by default. Hence encryption - a means to technologically ensure what we as a society have decided not to protect.

I am well aware of the ramifications if one were to follow this thought through to its very end: that private data should never be (legally) accessible to anyone but its owner (and ownership of data is also a difficult conundrum) would also mean the state would be forbidden from listening in on any communication, including of, say, known terrorists.

Well, here's the thing: it'll always be an arms race. Encryption and methods of information exchance usually improve slightly (i.e. years) ahead of the means to break the encryption. Heck, in lots of cases it is just a question of the effort (i.e. computing power * time) required to crack a scheme, and therefore better hardware allows easier breaking of encryption, but also stronger encryption that is even harder to break. Hence most surveillance (and post facto investigation) rely on man-in-the-middle, spoofing, open security holes, or even just social engineering (e.g. tricking someone into letting you in, detaining or even torturing* a suspect until they tell you their password), in other words: the very same methods that any illegal attack would utilize. Thus anything that lets the police in also lets the criminals in.

I am not sure if there is a solution to this. Maybe this arms race will just go on forever. But right now not giving in to any demand for backdoors etc. is just asking for the next wave of viruses, ransomware attacks to make use of etc.


*Here is a terrifying thought: beyond being simply cruel and inhumane, torture is usually regarded as ineffective. The tortured may end up telling you anything you want to hear just to make it stop, admitting to crimes they never comitted, listing accomplices for crimes that never happened. But if torture happens to retrieve a password, the torturer could immediately check the validity of the password and only stop once they have received the true password. Which means in this situation torture is an effective method to gain access, because the victim can never end it without giving the torturer what they desire.
Trying to rep you for this, but can't.

I think Orwell would be shocked by what can be done, in regards to thought crime and the manipulation of history today.

We will never live in an ideal world, where all motives are honest and intentions are honourable.
 
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