The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.

[Mystify]

"Actively hunting" is not the appropriate defence against undermining. If you want to defend against undermining you do so with supporting your own group, or undermining theirs.

Apparently you're not coz you still want to SHOOT them out of defence for your faction when you claim you understand that it has no such effect.

It doesn't make any difference if they do it in solo or open coz your defence is NOT to shoot them, it's to also do missions.

You are just not referreing to that deterrence agrument - I guess because there is nothing you can say against it.
I said in the lines you quoted, that of course we would still do missions o0 I am aware of that, so telling me thgis for the 3rd time, is not necessary. Thanks.

 

[Sandmann]

He did you are right although I did believe at the time I could talk sense to him. Let him reiterate that comment now and lets have it stated on the way the game is sold. THIS ISN't A PVP GAME. Put it in writing on the advertising, let the chips fall where they may.

I agree with you that it was poorly communicated, obviously because he wanted as many customers as possible... but equally there was no shortage of quotes like "primarily a coop game", "consequences to control griefing", "PvP will be rare & meaningful" and so on for those who actually went looking for them (and I -know- you were one of the ones who saw them, I was around back then and we've been having this conversation for more than two years now).

[edit] Now, whether or not his design choices were good choices is a whole 'nother topic, and one on which I think you and I would actually agree for the most part (eg: your suggestion earlier re eve style safe & "not so much" zones - straight out of my fondest desires for this game).

 

[Marcus Tullius]

It is NOT and has NEVER been a PvP game.

-----------
Actually it is PvP game. Undermining someone else efforts in BGS is Player Versus Player activity. Participating in PP is PvP activity. Everything performed into the same shared virtual reality affects all players in this virtual reality. ED is PvP game from day 1 but with funny feature that you are unable to see your opponents.

 

[Cosmos]

I agree with you that it was poorly communicated, obviously because he wanted as many customers as possible... but equally there was no shortage of quotes like "primarily a coop game", "consequences to control griefing", "PvP will be rare & meaningful" and so on for those who actually went looking for them (and I -know- you were one of the ones who saw them, I was around back then and we've been having this conversation for more than two years now).

You are right, I think I and fellow players are in denial. We are not wanted in this game. Fair enough, when there is a better option this game will be left for dead. You win.. *applause*

 

[MadMikesch]

Nobody said it was impossible. What they said is that its a horrible game-breaking idea that would twist the game into being something radically different from what it was intended to be. Sure, FD could do it, but unless their heads are so far up their 4th point of contact that they need a glass window in their stomach to see where they are going, they wont.

You are effectively asking for mechanics to allow you or your group of buddies to control territory. This is something that DB has explicitly stated many times will NEVER be in the game.

No that is what you think. He said word by word it would be a coding nightmare. And if such a easy thing is a coding nightmare I completely understand now why 75% of the missions introduced with 1.4 and 2.0 are still not working.

 

[Sandmann]

-----------
Actually it is PvP game. Undermining someone else efforts in BGS is Player Versus Player activity. Participating in PP is PvP activity. Everything performed into the same shared virtual reality affects all players in this virtual reality. ED is PvP game from day 1 but with funny feature that you are unable to see your opponents.

The commonly understood meaning of the term in this context is direct player on player combat. Yes, seen from a certain perspective EVERYTHING in this game is PvP due to the pervasiveness of the BGS, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

[Stahll Amatin]

Its how it is. Braben quite clearly has had an agenda from day one re this. I hold him personally responsible for all this anti PvP bandwagoning we've seen for years; we are all 'griefers' and 'psychos' apparently. The counter argument would be that the game is designed to facilitate players who are just bad (whoa just had to edit that, completey changed my word there) gamers. Can't hack it? don't worry my friend, here is solo and pg. Everyone here is a special snowflake.. forget skill, forget getting better.. FD have your back.

I've got a lifetime pass and so I'll likely always be involved with the game but if I didn't I wouldn't have bought Horizons.. And when a better space mmo comes along, I'll be gone, much like the rest of us folk here who are tired of being demonised.

But actually, perhaps we should just boycott the game. Lets see how far it goes with 20k players.

Yanno that game where you can freely gank anyone for any reason anywhere already exists. it's called eve online. I have no problem with PvP being in the game but as far as im aware this has never really been pushed or advertised as being 'PvP based' or PvP centered. Those of us who post here on the forums aren't even a small fraction of the total game population. For every PvP pilot who seeks fights, or conducts piracy, or does CZs or PP on open, there are plenty of little trolls who just fly in full wings and gank everything that moves because they can. and no i don't see that behavior as valid or acceptable and consider them the filth of the internet. the game would be BETTER if they all left.

that said, it is unfortunate that the minute you say anything about PvP you are branded with all the 'sins' of those griefing trolls.

 

[Sandmann]

You are right, I think I and fellow players are in denial. We are not wanted in this game. Fair enough, when there is a better option this game will be left for dead. You win.. *applause*

I wouldn't say that, but it DOES seem that ED's not meeting the desires of certain players, very probably due to the vague definitions (*cough*misdirection*cough*) in it's advertising. It's a shame some players can't see the value in the 80% of the game that's not PvP oriented, but c'est la vie.

 

[Roybe]

-----------
Actually it is PvP game. Undermining someone else efforts in BGS is Player Versus Player activity. Participating in PP is PvP activity. Everything performed into the same shared virtual reality affects all players in this virtual reality. ED is PvP game from day 1 but with funny feature that you are unable to see your opponents.

The game is designed as an indirect PvP tug of war. There is a false equivalency the PVP players try to utilize though...that being since the game is based on indirect PvP, Direct PvP should have the same amount of input into the indirect PvP gameplay.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Trust me I spend a lot of time counting to 10

Next week we will work on you making it to 11

 

[Roybe]

You are right, I think I and fellow players are in denial. We are not wanted in this game. Fair enough, when there is a better option this game will be left for dead. You win.. *applause*

It already is considered dead by a large contingent of PVP players. SDC is the last gasp for the PVP crowd to force the game developers to change the game into something else. When they fail they will leave...just like the rest of the PVP players that wanted a 'real PVP game'.

The game will not die because of this...it will just be a little less populated. Since the game was always meant to be a niche game, this will not be problematic.

 

[GilliganTX]

-----------
Actually it is PvP game. Undermining someone else efforts in BGS is Player Versus Player activity. Participating in PP is PvP activity. Everything performed into the same shared virtual reality affects all players in this virtual reality. ED is PvP game from day 1 but with funny feature that you are unable to see your opponents.

While very, very true, for purposes of discussion it is typically easiest, and understood that, relative to Elite, PvP refers to direct player against player combat, and PvE refers to activities in which you do not engage directly with other players, even if the goal is to compete with them.


You are absolutely right, but to keep the discussion from becoming mired and bogged with tedius distinctions it is simply easiest to relegate the term PvP to direct player combat.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Next week we will work on you making it to 11

That would involve me taking at least one shoe off...

But.

Its how it is. Braben quite clearly has had an agenda from day one re this. I hold him personally responsible for all this anti PvP bandwagoning we've seen for years; we are all 'griefers' and 'psychos' apparently. The counter argument would be that the game is designed to facilitate players who are just bad (whoa just had to edit that, completey changed my word there) gamers. Can't hack it? don't worry my friend, here is solo and pg. Everyone here is a special snowflake.. forget skill, forget getting better.. FD have your back.

I've got a lifetime pass and so I'll likely always be involved with the game but if I didn't I wouldn't have bought Horizons.. And when a better space mmo comes along, I'll be gone, much like the rest of us folk here who are tired of being demonised.

But actually, perhaps we should just boycott the game. Lets see how far it goes with 20k players.

Just to put my personal point across. i.e. mod hat off.

In all the time I've been a moderator on here and the contact I've personally had with the staff at FD I can 100% guarantee you I have never heard one single piece of anti PVP rhetoric from anyone at Frontier. Ever.

I genuinely feel that David and the folks at FD want a vibrant universe that caters for all types of players as long as they play within the rules. however, to state someone has a clear agenda without quoting actual statements made is a bit unfair. The game is what it is, a big old place for us to play in that is dangerous in open and solo, personally I play only in open and love the fact that I could be interdicted and attacked by another player or NPC, for me that's what keeps me on the edge of my seat while I do a bit of smuggling. (this is not an invitation to start tracking me down btw )

 

[DaveB]

No that is what you think. He said word by word it would be a coding nightmare. And if such a easy thing is a coding nightmare I completely understand now why 75% of the missions introduced with 1.4 and 2.0 are still not working.

Fair enough, I've as much experience in the IT industry as you so my view of a "coding nightmare" would be something like trying to do c++ on punch cards so I'll concede that point.

However, to my other point.. Your primary objection to the current state is that you have no chance to "stop" folks in other modes coming into "your" space and messing with it. You want to control the territory, to defend it, make it "yours" and you're objecting to the fact that you can't.

Players controlling territory is something that has been explicitly ruled out by FD over and over again. That includes controlling it by the threat of "come in here doing that and I'll shoot you" What you're wanting simply isn't going to happen. Ever. Not in this game.

 

[Marcus Tullius]

The commonly understood meaning of the term in this context is direct player on player combat. Yes, seen from a certain perspective EVERYTHING in this game is PvP due to the pervasiveness of the BGS, but that's not what we're talking about here.

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From global perspective everything affecting other people is PvP. Player on Player combat is just a particular case of PvP. No offence, just for clarification.

 

[Cosmos]

Just to put my personal point across.

In all the time I've been a moderator on here and the contact I've personally had with the staff at FD I can 100% guarantee you I have never heard one single piece of anti PVP rhetoric from anyone at Frontier ever.

I genuinely feel that David and the folks at FD want a vibrant universe that caters for all types of players as long as they play within the rules. however, to state someone has a clear agenda without quoting actual statements made is a bit unfair. The game is what it is, a big old place for us to play in that is dangerous in open and solo, personally I play only in open and love the fact that I could be interdicted and attacked by another player or NPC, for me that's what keeps me on the edge of my seat while I do a bit of smuggling. (this is not an invitation to start tracking me down btw )

If thats really the case then someone senior at FD needs to come out and make a clear statement on the matter. I happen to disagree with you TJ, If I counted how many times David was captured talking about those evil 'griefers' and had a quid for every mention I would be a rich man.

Whatever is said the game design says one thing: PVE. Until that changes the reality will remain the same. With all that said I wouldn't mind a 100% PvE game provided it was awesome but its not the case and I can't help but think that the management are playing both sides for further revenue. Ultimately the game is stunted by the whole situ.

There's 400 billino systems out there.. so much game space.. It could be accomodating to some great gameplay.

 

[Sandmann]

If thats really the case then someone senior at FD needs to come out and make a clear statement on the matter.

Yeah well... I can't see them coming out and saying anything at this point that would seem to officially favour either side... they're pretty fond of playing both sides. Don't hold your breath.

 

[DaveB]

If thats really the case then someone senior at FD needs to come out and make a clear statement on the matter. I happen to disagree with you TJ, If I counted how many times David was captured talking about those evil 'griefers' and had a quid for every mention I would be a rich man.

Whatever is said the game design says one thing: PVE. Until that changes the reality will remain the same. With all that said I wouldn't mind a 100% PvE game provided it was awesome but its not the case and I can't help but think that the management are playing both sides for further revenue. Ultimately the game is stunted by the whole situ.

There's 400 billino systems out there.. so much game space.. It could be accomodating to some great gameplay.

They have already made several statements that add up to the same thing. If a PvP-focused player group wants to have a home base and defend it by fighting off outsiders and invaders, they can't. Because DBOBE and others at FD have stated many times in the past that players cannot and will never be able to control territory. Being unable to stop PvE action from impacting "your" space without the chance of fighting off the other player is the whole point of this thread.

 

[Mystify]

My hope is and always was, that Frontier may sometime realize, that the real long time motivation won't come through some rng PVE missions or stuff, but through player generated stories, battles, diplomatics, tournaments, alliances etc.

That hope is decreasing though...

Letting open playing minor factions in some way try to "defend" their faction would have been at least a small step in this direction.
But even this small step seems to be too big, for Frontier.

 

[GilliganTX]

If thats really the case then someone senior at FD needs to come out and make a clear statement on the matter. I happen to disagree with you TJ, If I counted how many times David was captured talking about those evil 'griefers' and had a quid for every mention I would be a rich man.

Whatever is said the game design says one thing: PVE. Until that changes the reality will remain the same. With all that said I wouldn't mind a 100% PvE game provided it was awesome but its not the case and I can't help but think that the management are playing both sides for further revenue. Ultimately the game is stunted by the whole situ.

There's 400 billino systems out there.. so much game space.. It could be accomodating to some great gameplay.

Speculation, on my part here of course, but lets go with the assumption that development do not want PvP to become a more central aspect of the game:

I'd be willing to wager it didn't start that way, but then observing the type of player who seems to yell the loudest regarding PvP's place in game IS the proto-typical griefer/ganker, a group whose sole purpose they have stated is to disrupt the game for both the players AND the developers, and have on multiple occasions given the them a great-big-metaphorical-middle-finger. That group has become the primary voice of PvP in elite, and I think they have done more to sour the reputation of "PvPers" in game than anyone or anything else.

I fly with a lot of PvP centric guys, and go hunting with them on occasion if I agree with the reasons. There is nothing wrong in game with PvP and I do want more supporting mechanics for it (a little in game incentive). We/They do not gank, we do not hold events mocking the rules, and we do not enter in to private groups with the intention of disrupting that group. Unfortunately this type of PvP player is the silent majority, and the highly vocal minority have ensured PvP is relegated to a side show in game.

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Letting open playing minor factions in some way try to "defend" their faction would have been at least a small step in this direction.
But even this small step seems to be too big, for Frontier.

You absolutely, 100%, with out a doubt, have multiple avenues in which you can defend your faction in game.

Stop ignoring them because they're not what YOU want them to be.