Macroing, sign of UI change required?

[Barns]

It's becoming apparent that many of the "top" pilots are using VoiceAttack to perform a multitude of tasks, from simple stuff like turning lights on to complex evasive flight or altering menu options which otherwise take multiple "clicks" to change. This really is a sign of a problem with the UI design. If in order to compete you are required to quickly circumvent the cumbersome menu navigation and other UI design "features", using external macro programs like VA, shouldn't FD acknowledge they need to change their approach? Not laud said macro programs in a Newsletter (however cool and worthy they may be in their own right, nothing against VA in itself).

I'm deeply troubled by FD claiming on one hand "we want you to be forced to take time out and eyes off combat and click multiple times to do stuff, that's our VISION", whilst also saying "hey guys look at this awesome way to totally macro your way round our design, it's much better like this!".

Inconsistent, no? Make your mind up FD - do you want us clicking lots and requiring active input and time to do stuff, or do you support macro utils which have as their main aim automating such repetitive tasks? And if so why not BUILD IT INTO THE GAME rather than force external utils, by removing all this clicking!

So, comments, should the declared UI design intent - of forcing the player to look away from the action for considerable time to change options - be enforced by blocking macro programs, at least via the ToS like almost every other online game in existence? Or should this UI design be abandoned in favour of player convenience? (since everyone will use macros anyway, might as well level the field in the base game rather than require external tools).

 

[ZeeWolf]

We have already had confirmation that landing gear will have a control binding option in Alpha 4. So there is still work being done, changes being made etc.

Also, I don't use voice attack and I find the interface pretty responsive. I certainly have no issues with having to look away, can't think of many reasons to have to do it in combat anyway. Maybe when you are trying to get away, turning off systems trying to get into hyperspace or go stealthy. In those moments, the panicked motions of going into the menus and making the correct adjustments is hugely immerse I'm certainly in no hurry to macro everything. I'm perfectly happy for other pilots to try to if they need the handicap ;-)

 

[Barns]

We have already had confirmation that landing gear will have a control binding option in Alpha 4. So there is still work being done, changes being made etc.

Also, I don't use voice attack and I find the interface pretty responsive.

It's not keybinds per se I'm interested in, they're at best a sticky tape fix on a dodgy UI. It's more about clarification and consistency from FD on their goal for the UI experience. Do they want manual navigation through layers of menus to be integral to flight, requiring tactical thought about when is a good time to look at the menus? Or are they happy for all that "tactical thought" to be negated by a single macro that flicks automatically through everything super quickly on a single command from the pilot? I don't see how the two can both be supported at the same time - either one is the way they want the game played, or the other.

 

[Zorasht]

Well, i would like to have as many commands in the control screen as possible, as I'm using a HOTAS, i would like to map most (if not all) controls on it, so i don't need to move the hands off it at all.

 

[Lochemage]

It depends on how you look at it. Sure, Voice Attack can be used to create macro's that perform somewhat complicated tasks, but the same can be done with joystick and gamepad software (and even some gaming keyboards and mice). Where do you draw the line between what should be built into the game as opposed to what you get if you just use the proper controller?

Voice Attack isn't really about macro's, it's about using your voice as another means of control. How is Elite's advertising of voice control any different from them advertising different joysticks?

 

[ZeeWolf]

It's not keybinds per se I'm interested in, they're at best a sticky tape fix on a dodgy UI. It's more about clarification and consistency from FD on their goal for the UI experience. Do they want manual navigation through layers of menus to be integral to flight, requiring tactical thought about when is a good time to look at the menus? Or are they happy for all that "tactical thought" to be negated by a single macro that flicks automatically through everything super quickly on a single command from the pilot? I don't see how the two can both be supported at the same time - either one is the way they want the game played, or the other.

I added some more to the response above while you were typing your answer. I think its the nature of the beast really. I'm sure Elite Dangerous isn't the only complicated 'sim' style game with cockpit controls that players like to macro. I think quite a few people are perhaps experimenting with voice-attack to actually bind controls they would otherwise have to bind to the keyboard as they run out of controls on their controller - but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Vhaegrant]

It's hard to escape the pervasiveness of macros in PC gaming. Just look at how MMO keyboards have been designed to take them into account.

I have a Logitech G510 and it's built with a bank of 18 programmable buttons (and 3 modes for them for a total of 54 functions) and the ability to record a sequence of button presses. (unfortunately because the Logitech drivers clash with something in Windows 7, or vice versa, if I install them my PC never gets past the loading windows stage, but that's another issue altogether )

As far as I recall the better HOTAS systems have fully programmable switches as well (although I'm not so sure if you have full macro functionality or just single key presses).

While I doubt I would feel comfortable speaking commands at my computer, I can certainly see myself upgrading to a HOTAS control or upgrading my keyboard to one that works properly.

Personally I like the clutter free set up of the standard HUD, aside from being instantly recognisable as the cockpit view from the original game all the information I need is there in front of me.

 

[Stachel]

Obviously we're all going to be using VR headsets in a few years too. Its kinda hard to see your keyboard with one of those strapped to your face ..
Macro's aren't a new phenomenon. I've been using them for years personally. Mostly to bot for in game currency. But also to automate menus and modules in pvp.

I think the voice attack setup looks ace and obviously if I can go cold in .5 seconds and the other guy is faffing with absolutely stupid menus and tick box nonsense (which is the worst and dumbest designed ui I have ever seen for a twitch game) then he is going to lose out big time sadly.

I guess its just going to be a case of doing what you have to do to be competitive in your chosen in-game vocation. Then taking it one step beyond to ensure I win.

 

[Gibbonici]

I think quite a few people are perhaps experimenting with voice-attack to actually bind controls they would otherwise have to bind to the keyboard as they run out of controls on their controller - but maybe I'm wrong?

That's what I'm using it for, and most of the VA commands I'm using take longer than pressing a key but I don't have to take my hands off the controls.

I can see how the macroing aspect of it changes the competitive aspects of the game though, but there are other macroing methods that are quicker and more responsive than voice control, not to mention considerably more expensive. Voice Attack, with it's absurdly cheap price tag, probably does more to level the macro playing field than anything else.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

While I doubt I would feel comfortable speaking commands at my computer, I can certainly see myself upgrading to a HOTAS control or upgrading my keyboard to one that works properly.

To my mind, the overwhelming benefit of VA, is that you do not have to remember what button to press. Sure, most of the really important ones will stick in the memory, even one that leaks as much as mine does. But not the stuff you do infrequently. Talking to the computer for those is so much better than taking your eyes off the screen while you read your cribsheets.

 

[Jezzah]

its just another control method. for me it saves me having to give up useful keys and buttons for mundane controls.

the programme itself is simply this....the best 5 quid I've spent in a long time mainly for the reasons above but it also gives a nice feeling of control that i find immersive.

just get it and join the people using it

 

[Gibbonici]

the programme itself is simply this....the best 5 quid I've spent in a long time mainly for the reasons above but it also gives a nice feeling of control that i find immersive.

Yeah, I totally agree. It's also very satisfying.

Nothing says open for business like actually saying "open for business" to have your guns pop up.

 

[Perseus]

Lol. "Open for business" is cool but a tad long, I prefer the word "deploy". I can imagine all sorts of amusing command words are used.

Jezzah is spot on, it's another way to control the ship and frees up buttons. It's also ace speaking to the ship and adds itself to the whole commander fantasy we've all got going on.

 

[Jezzah]

for a fiver i just think its a no brainer utterly. theres a really good guide for using it with ED. do yourselves a favour CMDR's

 

[Ben Ryder]

Some more interesting discussion being had within this thread and a small public poll (Reciprocally linked).

The menus, controls, keys, and keybinding
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15644

 

[k10]

macros for gaming of one sort or another are so pervasive that arguing about it is a non-issue; it's going to happen.
I think the OP is (also) questioning why the UI view changing to the side menus/whatever to carry out these actions macros was a design decision... isn't the whole point of HOTAS, etc to keep your eye on the target? modeling taking your eyes off the target in the UI can be perceived as unnecessary for veterans and confusing for new comers.
if this mechanic is to confuse macro-bots then it might make screen scraping more difficult but probably not in insurmountable issue.

 

[Vhaegrant]

To my mind, the overwhelming benefit of VA, is that you do not have to remember what button to press. Sure, most of the really important ones will stick in the memory, even one that leaks as much as mine does. But not the stuff you do infrequently. Talking to the computer for those is so much better than taking your eyes off the screen while you read your cribsheets.

I suppose it's really horses for courses.

If an action is done so infrequently that I'll forget the keybinding I'm just as likely to forget the vocal command.

My day job involves a fair amount of talking, the thought of coming home and having to speak in-game is less than a relaxing prospect.

How well would it work if you're co-ordinating an attack with mates through ventrillo/teamspeak/raidcall ? I could imagine it could get very noisy and confusing very quickly.

And lastly, my PC is set up in the main living room, it makes it tricky to use a microphone at the best of times (usually I just switch it off and listen to the orders of other team mates).

I'd much rather see FD develop an integrated macro system within the controls options (only have access to Alpha 1.1 atm and even that has a lot more control customisation than many recent games I've played).

Or, even better work out in this period of testing the sort of macros that will get used the most and introduce them into the finished product as a single keybind option.

For example, it took me a little while to figure out why my ship was overheating so fast when I switched into 'silent running' and then I realised the shields although switched off were still drawing a full load of power. I would have thought the two options would have been tied together.

 

[pegginton]

Wouldn't the solution be for frontier to license VA from the indie developer and add it into the game, similar to what they have done with Oculus Rift and TrackIR. It would go some way to level the playing field between those that use VA and those that don't.
VA is awesome but it takes a good few hours of work to set it up to maximize its benefits. A lot of people would be put off by the setting up and tweaking. Imagine having it already setup in the elite dangerous controls section for everyone to use (if they choose).

 

[Anubis Khan]

I know for a fact that my X65F HOTAS has more than enough buttons for EVERYTHING that ED can throw at it. Currently configuring it to do just that with the alpha as we speak.

152 commands x 4 modes = 608 total possible programmable commands including macros

I am pretty sure even low to mid range HOTAS setups would easily be able to cover everything that you could possibly want the game to do without taking your hands off the stick.

 

[Barns]

Thanks for all the thoughts! For the record, I'm not anti macro, and think Voice Attack sounds great. As someone noticed, my issue is that the current design more or less requires you to macro in order to be most effective.

Supporting macros is great but I think the basic "require lots of manual clicking around and looking to the side" design needs changing, otherwise macros will be ESSENTIAL for every pilot.

FD need to decide why they really want the menus as they are. Is it to force players to make tactical decisions about when to perform time consuming actions like altering system settings? If so, they need to block macros that automate this. Is it purely for "immersion" reasons and nothing to do with "balance"? If so, there's no issue with macros but also no issue with, for example, providing a simplified streamlined interface without needing sideways looking for those who really dislike it and find it un-immersive. They can't have it both ways!

And if they REALLY love macros and think we should all do them, please make it easier to macro by for example making it consistent what order things appear in lists and where so you can know how many "clicks" are required!