The Fer de lance dilemma and ships pricing

If you had things your way then an eagle could take down a corvette in pvp.

Why the heck not? Admittedly it should be virtually impossible to *kill* it, the corvette should be able to jump out at any minute, but what is the advantage of making some ships simply unassailable in PvP because they're locked behind a grinding barrier? Far better is to make them better at a specific role (IE heavy support/anchoring/rawDPS)

If an unsupported large ship hat isn't properly specced out to deal with small foes is continually harrassed by a competent small ship pilot in a smartly outfitted anti-large ship build they *should* be forced to beat a retreat.

Remember that deployable fighters are supposed to be relevant. It would make no sense for a sub-Eagle fighter to be useful but an Eagle to be worthless

Looks fine to me

That because you're ignoring hull hardness. I'd also like to remind you that the FDL's hull weighs less than the Asp and barely more than the Vulture, while having a better flight model than the Viper, and the best shields of any ship in the game outside of the Big 3
 
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The FDL already costs 100 million since it is not usable with those E rated parts it comes with. And for 100 million it should be a lot better than the FAS in every way. This is not the case.

Actually the issue there isn't that the FDL costs 100 mil, its that the FAS costs next to nothing :p, its an unbelievable ship with logic defying stats yet costs a fraction of the things its bracketed with.
 
Actually the issue there isn't that the FDL costs 100 mil, its that the FAS costs next to nothing :p, its an unbelievable ship with logic defying stats yet costs a fraction of the things its bracketed with.

The FAS doesn't cost "next to nothing". Outfitted properly it's a 50 Mil ship, and that's with no armor.

It took me over a year to earn the credits to purchase one (outfitted), because I didn't wish to fly a only T7 back and forth for months. And at 4 Mill a death, it's not petty cash to keep flying into dangerous situations.
 
FDL is OP. FAS is also OP.

The solution is not that this is fine, the solution is to nerf both

Or not.

if something about those ships is off-balance (and I don't think so myself), then a better response than making those ships rubbish would be to improve areas of other ships.

Otherwise we end up with a bunch of gimped ships like the Python, instead of having a bunch of ships that are actually fun to fly.
 
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The FAS doesn't cost "next to nothing". Outfitted properly it's a 50 Mil ship, and that's with no armor.

It took me over a year to earn the credits to purchase one (outfitted), because I didn't wish to fly a only T7 back and forth for months. And at 4 Mill a death, it's not petty cash to keep flying into dangerous situations.

50m for what it does is cheap, next to nothing was clearly hyperbole come on :p

Like easier to put like this, whats in its category? FDL and Python

What do they cost? 50mil before outfitting lol, they aren't even close :p
 
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FDL is OP. FAS is also OP.

Cobra MK 3 is OP, T6 is OP, DBX is OP, Vulture is OP, ASP Exp is OP, Clipper is OP, T9 is OP, Conda is OP, Cutter is OP.
The rest is OK.
The only not-so-ok ship is the Keelback.
The solution is: stop trying to balance ships to your preferred playstyle.

50m for what it does is cheap, next to nothing was clearly hyperbole come on :p

My FAS is 85 million and makes around 5 million an hour, my T-9 is 95 million and makes around 12 million an hour, my ASP is around 18 million and could make .. a lot per hour if I'd ever smuggle.
(And yes, you can pick other balancing factors than credits per hour and come to vastly different results, but since that's the main "currency" for the elite ratings in combat/trade/exploration, that's probably the only thing that really matters. PvP balance? yea.. called Arena)
 
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I suspect the whiners on these forums wont be happy until the FDL costs 150 million and has a class 4 power plant
And when they are, other whiners will take over.

The FDL is a decent ship. It isn't the all-killing beast it's being touted as. Any ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can be effective. There was a post from a guy a while back in a T-6 who took out an A rated Cobra pirate that interdicted him.

The only ship I have an issue with is the FAS shieldless tank. I have no problem with the hull points, but the turn rate for a ship of that size is too high. Supposed to be the same as a Cobra, but a FAS can out-turn mine unless I use FA-Off.
 
For example why buy a t7 if for a little more you can buy an imperial clipper

Hahahahahaha! LOL. I remember thinking this! And started grinding for the empire.. It was around the time I bought my 2nd Anaconda that I finally had enough empire rank for the clipper...
 
Hahahahahaha! LOL. I remember thinking this! And started grinding for the empire.. It was around the time I bought my 2nd Anaconda that I finally had enough empire rank for the clipper...

I did a similar thing with the Federation.
I wanted to get a FAS, by the time I got the rank, I had 70mil... So I got the FDL. Lol
I got a FAS later on, didn't like it. Lol
 
Bottom Line:
You CAN NOT balance assets in a "perpetual world" game by price/grinding/rank required to obtain. rather you need to look at the BIG picture and not just what seems OP in your playstyle. if i had one complaint, it's that they made ships too versatile in most cases. The 'pure combat' hulls should massively outstrip thier multi-role counterparts in a 1 on 1 combat engagement. they shouldn't cost more for that ability either, the price of admission is their crappy abilities elsewhere (such as nearly no cargo, limited jump range, limited fuel, etc).

raising the price of ships, or making rank requirements higher, or anything else only delays folks gravitating to the ship that best suits their play style. Capabilities and stats should be reasonably balanced- not price points as in the long run price point of the hull is meaningless.
 
Maybe they should have a free-market system. The price is ships (purchase, replacement, repair) should be proportional to their popularity.

(ducks)
 
FDL is OP. FAS is also OP.

The solution is not that this is fine, the solution is to nerf both
That just spawns a never ending cycle. Buff em because they're underwhelming for what they are supposed to do/cost, then nerf em cos they're now a little too much compared to other ships that did not get/need a buff. Then buff them again cos no other ship is meant to fill their specific roles and now there's a black hole in the wake of their nerfing. Then ... well then we're back to where we started and we do the whole dance again.

The constant demands for nerfs and buffs in order to maintain a PvP experience that pleases all is not a solution. It is a revolving door that never stops once it's started spinning. The best PvP oriented games are the ones that understand this. They make small tweaks to refine the initial balance between the player's choices and then they leave things alone - players then have the stability to learn what works for them and how to adapt against other players' methods. The cycle of nerfing and buffing disrupts this process. Essentially changing the formula every 6 to 7 months or what not, only serves to make PvP unstable (and it absolutely messes up PvE in other ways). It is akin to constantly pulling the rug from under the player's feet just when they've finally started to adjust to the previous rug pull and all because the devs are trying to please every single person in the room.

In my opinion the solution is to have stability. Only then will the quality of PvP improve past the constant arguments of "this is OP, that is OP. But this is more OP than that OP and this... this is so OP it's OP is OP!" More in-depth ship customisation might be the solution here. I'm talking getting a little bit more into the internals, the guts of our ships. Fine tunning things like engine performance, energy distribution, power generation, weapon power draw vs shield strength, all that lovely jazz! And I use the words "fine tuning" instead of "improving" because the tuning part is essential. We don't want to have only improvements without any drawbacks.

● Want better turning rate? You'll have to sacrifice your speed by tuning your power plant to feed more power into your thrusters instead of into your engines. Vice versa if you want more straightline speed, then your agility will be minimised.
● Want less power draw from your weapons? Then you'll have to sacrifice your shield strength and ENG recharge rate. You'll be able to hit harder but in turn you'll be less able to take damage and less able to chase or run. Vice versa if you want stronger shields: you'll be sacrificing your prolonged attacking potential as well as the ability to boost a lot.
● Want better jump range because you feel the need to explore in your FDL? You'll have to sacrifice your ability to provide all that lovely power and heat management to weapons and SCBs since you'll be using all that excess power to increase jump range and save on every last drop of fuel. That means heatsinks will be of reduced effectiveness (they only drain 30% of heat as apposed to 100% of heat) and even so much as one shot of your coveted four rails will generate 70% more heat than normal. You'd have to launch two heatsinks just to fire off one volley of rails in this spec.

A simple to do yet hard to master tuning mechanic along those lines will help to eliminate the need for nerf and buff debates because it would open up the opportunity for players to have the ability to endlessly counter each other's builds. No OP can exist for long in an environment where ingenuity and creativity can be used to turn the tables - like in real life arms races/technology races. The Engineers update seems like it might just lay the foundation for such a customisation mechanic.

Anywho, that's my two cents worth on the solution to the nerf, buff debates.
 
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The FDL is not overpowered.
It's a pure combat ship. It can do nothing else effectively.

Leave it as it is.

It's better than every other pure combat ship bar maybe FAS/Corvette. "Pure combat" is not an excuse considering how much better it is than the FGS, Viper III/IV, Courier, Vulture, FDS, DBS, iEagle and eagle

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That just spawns a never ending cycle. Buff em because they're underwhelming for what they are supposed to do/cost, then nerf em cos they're now a little too much compared to other ships that did not get/need a buff. Then buff them again cos no other ship is meant to fill their specific roles and now there's a black hole in the wake of their nerfing. Then ... well then we're back to where we started and we do the whole dance again.

Or you know, balance them appropriately rather than do the frontier thing of overnerf/overbuff

The FDL was balanced before it was buffed

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The solution is: stop trying to balance ships

How in any way is that a solution???

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Or not.

if something about those ships is off-balance (and I don't think so myself), then a better response than making those ships rubbish would be to improve areas of other ships.

Otherwise we end up with a bunch of gimped ships like the Python, instead of having a bunch of ships that are actually fun to fly.

Easier to fix 2 ships than 27.

Though that said, small combat specialists need a flight model buff (specifically more consistent high-speed pitch rate)
 
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