Your Questions Needed - Join the Elite Tutorial Livestream - Everything You Need to Know About the Background Sim

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Excellent stream! Thanks to the devs for taking the time. :)

Still not buying the ~ 20 Ly expansion radius though. We're not talking about observing 20.1 or 20.2 as was joked in the stream. Try 23, 24 Ly without displacement and 26, 27, 28 Ly with displacement. With 100% certainty of the system that was the source of the expansion. I was really hoping to get some insight into that mechanic, but it wasn't anything we hadn't already assumed, and the observations don't match the commentary.

Still, there was some great confirmation in the tidbits, and the whole thing was interesting and entertaining. Love the idea of faction "retreat", though I prefer to call it "beating invaders back with a stick".

I have the same feeling about the 'there is no influence decay' comment because I cannot for the life of me explain 0.3% disappearing from my faction and 0.1% going to the other 3 factions everyday I do nothing. And that is not down to activity to be so precise each day.

Retreat is a great idea though.
 
Excellent livestream - sincere thanks to Adam and Dav for the time they took to get into some deep-ish territory, and for their unstinting work with the BGS over the last couple of years. Like them, I'm keen not to blow the lid off certain aspects, the knowledge of which would (imho) lessen the overall 'suspension-of-disbelief' effect... but I do still have a couple of questions that maybe they'd like to comment on (given what Dav said about checking into this thread for the next day or two).

Firstly... 'trade and its effect on influence'. Much was said, and all of it made sense, but some of it was still rather vague. Could Dav confirm my hunch that it is "tills ringing" that counts with trade's effect on influence, and not value, profit, import-vs-export, or anything else... but the simple act of buying and/or selling 'something' - whether that be one thing, ten things, or a hundred things, it's the transaction that matters, more than its value, direction, profit, loss, demand or supply levels. I'm not going to point out the maybe not-so-obvious exploit that arises if it is 'transaction-based' (people can figure that out for themselves)... but does Dav or Adam have any plans to nerf that effect, or de-spam it or add flood-brakes to it? I think you know what I'm talking about, guys. ;)

Were you also aware that the same basic 'transaction-based' loading occurs with exploration data too, and possibly even combat-bonds? You might want to look at methods to control that, or at least implement some kind of diminishing returns system, if you haven't already. Heck, maybe you already do, in which case great, but please tell us if this is in effect already! It's very hard to measure, beyond a certain point, when we are on the outside looking in (like you said in the livestream, you have access to the entire DB, so your godlike omniscience makes us seem very blind in comparison!)

Finally - capping. There comes a point where (for example) someone returning from a month-long exploration trip has to dump their data, and (as we know) there is a limit to the influence-movement that any faction can expect, per tick. This makes sense, and stops an explorer flipping an entire system in a day, which is right and proper. But by the same token, his exploration data would, on any other day, have the same value in its component parts, if broken down bit-by-bit, so is it really fair to simply (and rather arbitrarily) decide that maybe nine-tenths of it today is worthless (because the cap has been reached) - and to do so without warning him? Wouldn't it be fairer to warn the explorer that he was approaching some sort of 'tolerance' level, and/or that the cartographics station had had enough for today? Maybe blame it on the minions inside who have to file his epic amounts of data, or feign some kind of 'input processing queue full, try again tomorrow' sort of semi-rejection. By all means let him keep pumping data in, knowing full well that he's just getting money, not influence in return for his efforts, but at least signal the situation, and give him a reminder that maybe he should save a chunk for tomorrow to sell here again (for influence as well as cash) or perhaps go visit another friendly system, and sell a bit there, if he's looking for both effects. It just seems a tad unfair to keep the poor soul in the dark as to whether anyone in the faction/population gives a hoot about his wondrous news of faraway planets anymore, simply because they've had a lot already, this 'tick'. Better feedback to the player would help mitigate this, I believe.

That's it from me for now. Many thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedules to give us this BGS insight. Many more of us 'out here' play chess with it more than you realise, and having some of those rules at least more firmly established by yourselves, does take some of the frustration out of it, and without destroying the magic, too. None of us want it all 'on a plate', but there are times when the darkness just closes in a bit too much, so Adam's stated aims of giving things 'a bit more clarity' is absolutely spot-on, and just what I had hoped to hear. Really looking forward to 2.1 in due course, and thanks again for sharing. I could quite happily listen to you two rabbit on about the BGS all night, and then some. Please do come back again and give us some more one day. It's the galaxy's biggest chess-game, and you know it! ;)
 
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I've just watched it through, excellent job guys.

If I could just clear up one slightly misleading statement, towards the end, where you talk about conflict states not occurring when you match influence, because of a conflict in another system. Pending conflict in another system will block, and you won't see the pending state unless you actually fly to that other system. (Been there, done that.)
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
I have the same feeling about the 'there is no influence decay' comment because I cannot for the life of me explain 0.3% disappearing from my faction and 0.1% going to the other 3 factions everyday I do nothing. And that is not down to activity to be so precise each day.

Retreat is a great idea though.

Someone playing in Solo? Or on XBOX?
 
I have the same feeling about the 'there is no influence decay' comment because I cannot for the life of me explain 0.3% disappearing from my faction and 0.1% going to the other 3 factions everyday I do nothing. And that is not down to activity to be so precise each day.

Retreat is a great idea though.


Pretty sure there was previously a dev comment confirming this (decay that is). Point being that each faction in the system has a natural balance point, and when there is no player activity they will drift back to this natural stasis point. But I've seen this effect all over the place as well. Systems where I am the only traffic for days on end.
 
I have the same feeling about the 'there is no influence decay' comment because I cannot for the life of me explain 0.3% disappearing from my faction and 0.1% going to the other 3 factions everyday I do nothing. And that is not down to activity to be so precise each day.

Retreat is a great idea though.

Trading missions affect both the giver and the receiving system.

That's where the "random" influence changes come from in systems that barely have any traffic.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Expansions cost 15% influence

I don't know where they are getting this from, but this certainly doesn't work correctly as things stand. The only loss of influence you can observe from an expansion is if you suck a faction in and it gets some starting influence from you.
 
I don't know where they are getting this from, but this certainly doesn't work correctly as things stand. The only loss of influence you can observe from an expansion is if you suck a faction in and it gets some starting influence from you.
Yeah, that part was weird. Maybe they've changed it but it's not in the live game yet? I didn't really want to dwell on it though, because that's one bug I probably don't want fixed :p

Although, if there was any confusion about which system a faction expanded from, a 15% drop would make it pretty obvious.
 
In the Livestream one of the two Factions added for the Example, was a "Colony" as their Government type

I have not come across one of those before.

Anyone be a dear and head over to see if that Faction is still there and get the Faction Description on the Right Hand Multifunction display.

I am Far too far away

Feel free to add to the thread in my signature
 
Thank you to Adam and Dav for your letting us see inside the black box. It is great to hear that there is going to be more understandable decorations on the box to help ascertain what is happening inside....I can now say I am looking forward to beta time!

It will be interesting to see how the changes you 'suggested' might be incoming in the shorter time frame than Soon™ will affect the gameplay.

Thankfully, the 'crime rate change' that came in a few months ago appears to have fixed the edge case many of the groups we knew were dealing with. My home is actually playable now...and many more have claimed success since this 'fix'.

Finally, to the two of you, and those that help you, it is wonderful to have a real set of faces and names to consider when posting 'feedback' about the part of the game we all are enslaved to. It's nice to know you guys shed as much blood and tears over this as we do...and I am happy to hear that there are some very good sounding ideas that are being discussed and possibly implemented!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Yeah, that part was weird. Maybe they've changed it but it's not in the live game yet? I didn't really want to dwell on it though, because that's one bug I probably don't want fixed :p

Although, if there was any confusion about which system a faction expanded from, a 15% drop would make it pretty obvious.

Is it 15% drop from the system expanded from...or 15% drop at the original home system?

On the note about hamster welfare..do they work 5 day 40 hour weeks, with 2 15 minute tea and biscuit breaks? Or are they on the 4 day 40 hour week with 3 day weekends consisting of Jameson's and large cheek-pouch females?
 
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Is it 15% drop from the system expanded from...or 15% drop at the original home system?

On the note about hamster welfare..do they work 5 day 40 hour weeks, with 2 15 minute tea and biscuit breaks? Or are they on the 4 day 40 hour week with 3 day weekends consisting of Jameson's and large cheek-pouch females?

I think the drop does exist, but I don't think it's anywhere near 15% as they stated. A 15% drop would be unmissable, I've always assumed it to be under 5%.

And I find it extremely worrying that they just glossed over the issues of Hamster Welfare. I think they realise they've been found out and are probably, at this very second, improving the hamsters' working conditions before the inspectors turn up to check that everything is above board. You know, removing the blood stains from the walls in the server room (evidence of hamster wheel escape velocities higher than regulations allow). Don't worry BuGSy, we're on your side and the campaign for hamster rights will continue.

And no mention of Kan Aphu?
We shall never forget our prison colony!
 
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15% spread across all systems the faction is present in perhaps? So, if 3 systems, 5% in each (slices adjusted for pop size, current influence, other faction influences)??
 
15% spread across all systems the faction is present in perhaps? So, if 3 systems, 5% in each (slices adjusted for pop size, current influence, other faction influences)??

That's an interesting suggestion and small enough (for many of us) to no longer be noticed when set against the background noise of other reasons for influence movements. Did they say the 15% drop happens at the point expansion goes pending? I've just checked half of the systems relevant to our last expansion on the day in question, and they all rose or stayed static. Looking again at what happened on the day it went active, and again they all rose apart from the source. The source dropped due to the arrival of the displaced faction, but only by 2.4%.

But, as they stressed throughout the stream, background noise can cause strange influence movements when everything is aggregated at the tick. The evidence doesn't appear to back up their 15% claim though.
 

Deleted member 38366

D
Someone playing in Solo? Or on XBOX?

I thought about the same - but the traffic reports were crystal clear.
Plus, the decay - when observed over a long time - is absolutely digital (you can set your clock to it) and will only slow down near a certain threshold.
Additionally, it was observed in super-remote Systems that either offered no incentive to ever dock there (huge distances to an entirely uninteresting Outpost) or don't even offer means to dock (some Systems populated by Horizons - yet the BGS got to work there as in any other System).

I've observed the decay in too many Systems now for it to be an accident.
It's a rubber-band that moves back to default limits, just like the pseudo-economy.

Plus, I've heard them say that Factions states supposedly make Influence move all by itself without Player support - again, this I found not to be true.
I tracked a few Systems that have persistently 0 Player traffic - experiencing various states from Factions that also exist in other Systems. Influence distribution has been absolutely frozen, regardless of Faction states. Nothing ever moves there.

So overall, that decay (I assume implemented as a quickfix to warrant positive stability sometime around V1.4 release - presumably to stop endless cycles of permanently auto-expanding NPC factions) was clearly visible and confirmed many times, entirely and completely regardless of the states various Factions were in.
Make a Player action insufficient to counter the decay or no action while Influence is above a threshold - it'll decay somewhat. Make an Input equal to the decay - Influence remains unchanged.

---------------------

Anyway, not alot of the detail-questions were answered, unfortunately they also did not address most of the spotted "anomalies".
I guess they're fully concentrated on the rework anyway, thus not investing much time into further tweaking or fixing what we currently have...

It's been improved over time and the "Blackbox mysteries" slowly uncovered.
As a whole, it kinda works (most of the time ;) ) and I find it a quite rewarding long-term gameplay element.

PS.
Rather curious about that Shipyard "evolution" they talked about (?)
They said it's supposedly possible - yet remained entirely silent as how that would be possible. Not too helpful and leaves alot of doubts.
No idea how many Booms, how many tens of thousands of tons Commodities and hundreds of Millions in profits my Player Group has already generated at our Station - in >6 months of very active support I haven't seen a thing change (?)
 
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That's an interesting suggestion and small enough (for many of us) to no longer be noticed when set against the background noise of other reasons for influence movements. Did they say the 15% drop happens at the point expansion goes pending? I've just checked half of the systems relevant to our last expansion on the day in question, and they all rose or stayed static. Looking again at what happened on the day it went active, and again they all rose apart from the source. The source dropped due to the arrival of the displaced faction, but only by 2.4%.

But, as they stressed throughout the stream, background noise can cause strange influence movements when everything is aggregated at the tick. The evidence doesn't appear to back up their 15% claim though.

Likewise, we've not seen something like 15%, but again a thought - 15% comes off, then your other actions over the last 24hrs get readded. So, thinking that thru, it is probably typical that as you build up to expansion, you are pushing a lot of positive actions. As it ticks over, you still have those positives adding influence %, but then the 15% comes off. At the end of the calculation, that might result in climbs of influence, or reductions. However, the 15% 'cost' is factored in. Again, just speculation on my part, trying to make sense of their statement.
 
the 15% 'cost' is factored in

Yes that's what I was calling background noise.
No way for us to tell for sure though.
But you'd think 15% should be noticed even when factored in to other background noise - and it clearly isn't.
 
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Dav Stott

Head of Online
Frontier
Excellent livestream - sincere thanks to Adam and Dav for the time they took to get into some deep-ish territory, and for their unstinting work with the BGS over the last couple of years. Like them, I'm keen not to blow the lid off certain aspects, the knowledge of which would (imho) lessen the overall 'suspension-of-disbelief' effect... but I do still have a couple of questions that maybe they'd like to comment on (given what Dav said about checking into this thread for the next day or two).

Firstly... 'trade and its effect on influence'. Much was said, and all of it made sense, but some of it was still rather vague. Could Dav confirm my hunch that it is "tills ringing" that counts with trade's effect on influence, and not value, profit, import-vs-export, or anything else... but the simple act of buying and/or selling 'something' - whether that be one thing, ten things, or a hundred things, it's the transaction that matters, more than its value, direction, profit, loss, demand or supply levels. I'm not going to point out the maybe not-so-obvious exploit that arises if it is 'transaction-based' (people can figure that out for themselves)... but does Dav or Adam have any plans to nerf that effect, or de-spam it or add flood-brakes to it? I think you know what I'm talking about, guys. ;)

Were you also aware that the same basic 'transaction-based' loading occurs with exploration data too, and possibly even combat-bonds? You might want to look at methods to control that, or at least implement some kind of diminishing returns system, if you haven't already. Heck, maybe you already do, in which case great, but please tell us if this is in effect already! It's very hard to measure, beyond a certain point, when we are on the outside looking in (like you said in the livestream, you have access to the entire DB, so your godlike omniscience makes us seem very blind in comparison!)

Finally - capping. There comes a point where (for example) someone returning from a month-long exploration trip has to dump their data, and (as we know) there is a limit to the influence-movement that any faction can expect, per tick. This makes sense, and stops an explorer flipping an entire system in a day, which is right and proper. But by the same token, his exploration data would, on any other day, have the same value in its component parts, if broken down bit-by-bit, so is it really fair to simply (and rather arbitrarily) decide that maybe nine-tenths of it today is worthless (because the cap has been reached) - and to do so without warning him? Wouldn't it be fairer to warn the explorer that he was approaching some sort of 'tolerance' level, and/or that the cartographics station had had enough for today? Maybe blame it on the minions inside who have to file his epic amounts of data, or feign some kind of 'input processing queue full, try again tomorrow' sort of semi-rejection. By all means let him keep pumping data in, knowing full well that he's just getting money, not influence in return for his efforts, but at least signal the situation, and give him a reminder that maybe he should save a chunk for tomorrow to sell here again (for influence as well as cash) or perhaps go visit another friendly system, and sell a bit there, if he's looking for both effects. It just seems a tad unfair to keep the poor soul in the dark as to whether anyone in the faction/population gives a hoot about his wondrous news of faraway planets anymore, simply because they've had a lot already, this 'tick'. Better feedback to the player would help mitigate this, I believe.

That's it from me for now. Many thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedules to give us this BGS insight. Many more of us 'out here' play chess with it more than you realise, and having some of those rules at least more firmly established by yourselves, does take some of the frustration out of it, and without destroying the magic, too. None of us want it all 'on a plate', but there are times when the darkness just closes in a bit too much, so Adam's stated aims of giving things 'a bit more clarity' is absolutely spot-on, and just what I had hoped to hear. Really looking forward to 2.1 in due course, and thanks again for sharing. I could quite happily listen to you two rabbit on about the BGS all night, and then some. Please do come back again and give us some more one day. It's the galaxy's biggest chess-game, and you know it! ;)

Hi TinyBigJacko,

Trade's effect on the influence bucket is based upon the credits profit made when selling commodities to markets controlled by that faction.

The number of trade transactions contribute towards that starsystem's influence cap for that day.

We're always keeping an eye on the galatic simulation's balance, how each of the various player activities contribute towards the daily starsystem influence caps are just a part of that ongoing process, which includes comparing small transactions with large scale ones.

It's easiest to think of the influence caps as a reflection of how much effort all our players have put into that entire starsystem for that day, regardless of which faction they happened to be interacting with.
There's not really much of a concept of wasted effort in this system, a few very very busy Commanders can exert a similar effort to a lot of Commanders who are just passing by.

Adam and Dav
 
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