Powerplay I hate my job and resent the success of others: Passive-Aggressive Power Play?

[Arklar]

Yeah, having to turn your undermining merits in to a control system before they are allowed to have an effect makes no sense from a realism perspective. However if you take that away it makes surprise attacks virtually impossible which makes war a lot less interesting. I would suggest that one possible solution to that would be to remove the caps on forts and UM, so that they aren't binary states. Surprise UM attacks then need to be followed up to ensure they remain ahead of reactionary forts. This double change would seem to improve matters and retain an important balance.

I still don't see an issue with playing PP in solo though. It seems a bad idea to prioritise certain play styles over others, and there are already ways to defend against solo or private group actions. Shooting cmdrs should not be the solution to everything, and cmdrs that want to shoot each other are already able to. I see no up side to encouraging non-consentual pvp.

 

[ever]

I still don't see an issue with playing PP in solo though. It seems a bad idea to prioritise certain play styles over others, and there are already ways to defend against solo or private group actions. Shooting cmdrs should not be the solution to everything, and cmdrs that want to shoot each other are already able to. I see no up side to encouraging non-consentual pvp.

Once you play for example for Winters and take federal packages, you are a "Fed-Aid" Ship, once you go undermining you are a "Federal Agent". The same goes for any Power. The fact that as an adversary you would interact only with Fed-Aid/Fed Agents NPCs is problematic for an adversarial game. The actions I do as a "Federal Agent" are not different from what a NPC Federal Agent does. I agree with Solo Power Play, because of internet connection, watching TV while playing, game design. But Open is how PP is meant to be played.

 

[EUS]

We all (non-backers) bought a game with the understanding that it would include 3 modes, and all modes were of the same value. Anyone who bought this game after it went live, and didn't have this understanding did not do their homework.

Even though I now play in all modes, I purchased the game only because it had a solo mode.

If FD decides to change this understanding, it had better make it very clear in the marketing campaigns, and in the forums that solo is being phased out, and lone-wolfs will have a tougher time of it.

I didn't buy a MMO, I bought a game that advertised all modes are interchangeable, and in parity with each other.

 

[SamSlade]

We all (non-backers) bought a game with the understanding that it would include 3 modes, and all modes were of the same value. Anyone who bought this game after it went live, and didn't have this understanding did not do their homework.

Even though I now play in all modes, I purchased the game only because it had a solo mode.

If FD decides to change this understanding, it had better make it very clear in the marketing campaigns, and in the forums that solo is being phased out, and lone-wolfs will have a tougher time of it.

I didn't buy a MMO, I bought a game that advertised all modes are interchangeable, and in parity with each other.

This is the logical fallacy I keep seeing and do not understand! (I'm not invested in any game mode in particular, I've not been here long enough)

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.

Being in open isn't just about blowing folks up: in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly. I mean if I see a wing of enemy ships my reaction isn't 'Ahaha! Die yuppie scum!' bur rather "small squeal Flee! They'll get you!"... but at least I'd know I needed to redouble my efforts instead of watching Guardians of the Galaxy and picking at my belly button lint.

edit: typo

 

[ever]

This is the logical fallacy I keep seeing and do not understand! (I'm not invested in any game mode in particular, I've not been here long enough)

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.

Being in open isn't just about blowing folks up: in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly. I mean if I see a wing of enemy ships my reaction isn't 'Ahaha! Die yuppie scum!' bur rather "small squeal Flee! They'll get you!"... but at least I'd know I needed to redouble my efforts instead of watching Guardians of the Galaxy and picking at my belly button lint.

edit: typo

fully agree, you have all these scouting ships. It would make the PP experience richer. It is not just about blowing others up, since you can escape quite easily, once you have enough experience. It's more about organisation and taking different roles, that have a direct impact. Since the bonus would be applied only to your Power, so not to you, a lone wolf would not be affected. A lone wolf can not affect his Power to such a degree, that actually makes the difference. Playing in Open/Solo should not affect him at all. It just diminishes his contribution to the Power, but the merits he gains stay the same. And it would only affect Power Play, so no other aspect of the game.

 

[SCSkunk]

This is the logical fallacy I keep seeing and do not understand! (I'm not invested in any game mode in particular, I've not been here long enough)

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.

Being in open isn't just about blowing folks up: in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly. I mean if I see a wing of enemy ships my reaction isn't 'Ahaha! Die yuppie scum!' bur rather "small squeal Flee! They'll get you!"... but at least I'd know I needed to redouble my efforts instead of watching Guardians of the Galaxy and picking at my belly button lint.

edit: typo

Sorry, won't let me Rep you again, I need to spread some love around...

 

[Olivia Vespera]

I'll just throw another question out here.

Do you stop 100% of the players playing in Open from working against you? Because i do tend to notice, a majority of powerplayers do claim to play in open. Therefore the biggest effect is probably coming from open powerplayers.

Perhaps, once you are capable of stopping 100% of the open players, it might be then worth discussing how you might have the capability to stop even more players who might be playing in other modes.

I think I'd like to see some actual data on how many players participate in powerplay do so from solo. I don't really need player count, merit count would be good!

 

[Saool]

I find it rather disconcerting that a Moderator would reply with such an nonconstructive, passive-aggressive 'flame-bait' comment.

I was not aware that this issue was such a contentious topic(and had been for a full year) and was actually wondering if it was a Power Play 'work in progress' or something: to be honest I had thought that this kind of Solo/Group action was part of the Fifth Column activity one of the Devs posted about.

Thanks to your input I know it is working as intended and that Moderators actively encourage a toxic forum environment: thank you for your beneficent knowledge and I'll be sure to avoid the forums and stick to the, unbelievable that I say this, more mature environment on Reddit.

He/she didn't. Instead they responded with all the things you didn't think about as it was outside of your own narrow vision and play style.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think I'd like to see some actual data on how many players participate in powerplay do so from solo. I don't really need player count, merit count would be good!

Well, its a very limited dataset, but it matches what i hear from talking to people in-game, on forums, and IRC: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=243816

From what i've heard, a vast majority of players who do PP (and a vast majority of players in general) do play in Open already.

There seems to be a myth that there are hordes of players hiding away in Groups and Solo causing a large impact on things like the BGS and PP.

The reality is (probably), their effect is much less than imagined by some people.

The real reason people are getting past others are probably more related to instancing, timezones, or just not seeing them due to being in a different area. Which is what prompted me to make the post about "Do you stop 100% of players in Open?". It wasn't just being sarcastic, it was also trying to make a point.

The area which probably is most "negatively" impacted from modes is CGs, but that is often simply due to people needing to switch modes just so they can actually dock at outposts and or get access to targets. Otherwise many CGs would become traffic jams around stations or massive fights over who gets to kill the limited NPCs in an area.

 

[EUS]

This is the logical fallacy I keep seeing and do not understand! (I'm not invested in any game mode in particular, I've not been here long enough)

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.

Being in open isn't just about blowing folks up: in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly. I mean if I see a wing of enemy ships my reaction isn't 'Ahaha! Die yuppie scum!' bur rather "small squeal Flee! They'll get you!"... but at least I'd know I needed to redouble my efforts instead of watching Guardians of the Galaxy and picking at my belly button lint.

edit: typo

Back to the drawing board then, until all modes are just as important as each other.

 

[SamSlade]

He/she didn't. Instead they responded with all the things you didn't think about as it was outside of your own narrow vision and play style.

Care to elaborate? I mean, thus far the arguments presented for keeping solo power play as the dominant 'meta' amount to "This is not an issue for me and as such is an issue for none"... now, colour me simple but that could be interpreted as a rather narrow response to concerns about power play.

I can also say that I have annecdotal evidence that many who claim 'always in open'(bro fist) change their tune when hey have a few million credits worth of rushed commodities in their hold; commodities that will assure they stay at rank 5... I'll entertain the thought that they are actually risking 50 million by running that in Open but something tells me I'm not being cynical enough.


also, could you give me a synopsis of my play style oh wise and informed game guru? I shall prostrate mine self upon the floor if it please thee to offer unto this simpleton thine providence.

 

[Arklar]

Once you play for example for Winters and take federal packages, you are a "Fed-Aid" Ship, once you go undermining you are a "Federal Agent". The same goes for any Power. The fact that as an adversary you would interact only with Fed-Aid/Fed Agents NPCs is problematic for an adversarial game. The actions I do as a "Federal Agent" are not different from what a NPC Federal Agent does. I agree with Solo Power Play, because of internet connection, watching TV while playing, game design. But Open is how PP is meant to be played.

I'm sorry, but I think you are incorrect in two respects. Firstly, interacting only with NPCs is not a problem in the slightest. It's a well-established mechanic; the NPCs are the chess board and we are the players. Secondly, Powerplay is clearly designed with NPC interaction as the main battleground. Arena is the part of the game designed for direct PvP, not Powerplay.

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.
...in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on whether you agree that surprise attacks should be possible) forcing everyone into Open wouldn't actually change that. The p2p mechanics mean that you're only ever going to see a small percentage of the total player base in your instance. I think a better solution for what you're describing as the problem there would be to have a better method of recording interactions with NPCs, so that if someone kills 5000 npcs in a system we don't have to wait until the end of the week to hear about it.

 

[Roybe]

This is the logical fallacy I keep seeing and do not understand! (I'm not invested in any game mode in particular, I've not been here long enough)

If you are able to carry out passive PvP actions(Powerplay) without anyone being able to see then you are not equal, your are advantaged... you're basically a stealth poltergeist ship haunting the meta and throwing surprise attacks at the back of peoples heads.

Being in open isn't just about blowing folks up: in open you can SEE that there are wings of enemy ships undermining or prepping or whatever and plan accordingly. I mean if I see a wing of enemy ships my reaction isn't 'Ahaha! Die yuppie scum!' bur rather "small squeal Flee! They'll get you!"... but at least I'd know I needed to redouble my efforts instead of watching Guardians of the Galaxy and picking at my belly button lint.

edit: typo

But the fallacy here is that if everyone was in Open you would only see 11 people or so...less if you are winged up! If you force folks to play in Open you will not see a lot of them as they will set their routers to not accept others connection requests. <shrug> This whole discussion is pretty useless.

 

[Cosmos]

I totally understand people being concerned about 'griefing' and 'trolling' but isn't the profound irony of engaging in systematic passive-aggressive actions and then calling someone who desires a player conflict mechanic be active a griefer or troll brain damaging in scope?

Help me to understand how this is at all logical?

Its not logical and solo/pg mechanisms have entirely ruined the game experience. Its sheer nonesense and is there to cater to the lowest common denominator. Its also extremely anti-social and for a game marketed as an MMO its also rather baffling. I look at the way we are allowed to have conflict in this game and it amounts to kid gloves, a grinding competition in which FD have cooked up elaborately indirect ways in which confict takes place: Who can shoot more bots or who can truck more stuff. There is no dynamism, its garbage.

Its all the more frustrating because the game has such awesome potential and great core game dynamics such as the control systems of our ships.. FD have in effect limited the game through their own restrictions on what they deem enjoyable game play and in doing so I feel they have done an injustice to all the great work that the devs have done on the game. I've said it before during development but the game feels like its been made for people at the old folks home.

ED could be stellar, an epic game but its never going to be when its like this.

 

[SamSlade]

But the fallacy here is that if everyone was in Open you would only see 11 people or so...less if you are winged up! If you force folks to play in Open you will not see a lot of them as they will set their routers to not accept others connection requests. <shrug> This whole discussion is pretty useless.

11 is more then none. Also the best suggestions have been to give a bonus to playing in Open and a cool down on merits to make solo banking for surprise attacks harder.

If people are manipulating their connection to gain a positive advantage they are cheating and should be banned: that's a no brainer(and it's very easy to detect).

Again, the justifications for maintaining a clearly imbalanced status quo thus far amount to 'don't care, doesn't affect me' and 'cheaters gonna cheat'!?!

Seriously?

 

[Arklar]

Again, the justifications for maintaining a clearly imbalanced status quo thus far amount to 'don't care, doesn't affect me' and 'cheaters gonna cheat'!?!

Seriously?

What imbalance are you refering to? There's no balance issue relating to playing in private/solo. The only difference between open and private/solo is that in Open you have a 5% chance of being blown up, and in solo/private you have a close to 0% chance of being blown up. That doesn't affect powerplay balance at all, since all game modes are accessible to everyone.

Giving a Powerplay bonus to playing in Open is a silly idea. Fewer people playing in Open is not a powerplay issue, it is a wider-game issue and needs a wider-game solution. The main factor is the broken crime system, so that's the part to fix if you want more people in Open.

But then trying to force people into Open is a bad idea in itself. Let people play the way they want to. That is a defining characteristic of this game; that you're not railroaded into playing in one particular way, and it is a huge part of why the game is as popular as it is. It is hugely important to avoid doing anything that suggests that one way of playing is somehow better or worse than another, because all that will do is drive away the people who prefer the less favoured play styles.

Yes, it is easier to interact with NPCs in solo/private. So what? Some of us play games to relax, you know. If you want to interact with players, go to open, and if you want to interact with NPCs go to private/solo. The game already caters to both play styles just fine. What the game doesn't allow is for players who want to interact with other people to override the actions of players who only want to interact with NPCs. That is what giving any kind of bonus to Open play would do, and it would make the game far worse.

My advice to the devs: solve the actual problems with the game and completely ignore the people who want to impose their play style on everyone else. You'll lose at least half your playerbase if you start messing about with mode balance. This is an MMO, but perhaps in a different style to those that you are used to. In this MMO you don't always see people directly (this is a big galaxy after all), but you still feel the effects of their presence. We're all still playing in the same game area, and we all have equal ability to affect the galaxy, and are affected by it equally in turn. It is different to other games, and that's both intentional and the source of its appeal.

 

[EdzUp]

From reading the here its obvious to me that no matter what we will never resolve this issue in its entirely to everyones satisfaction, for me PP was a grind as all it was for me was deliveries from A-B.

To throw my hat into the ring why not make it so merits are given for performing standard things from the BBS so people doing things for the chosen faction will increase their influence and doing things for the other side would do the opposite to have specific things you have to do does seem to be counter productive, this along with the merit bonus for open play would balance it out somewhat.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I don't play powerplay. When I discovered that it's not only open, I concluded it was stupid. As the OP says, it just becomes a contest to see who can grind more.

The entire PvP-conflict-meta gameplay is purely grind based. What kills PvP* (and PP) isn't open vs. solo/group, it's the insurance mechanic - a concept** that is completely based in a PvE mindset.
The whole game is PvE based with a very thin PvP icing. PvP in this game makes absolutely no sense. Just look at the game and ignore PvP - it all makes sense add PvP and it all falls apart.

All the discussions about PvP, PP open only and everything related is most of the time just ignoring the big elephant in the room: This game isn't made for PvP.





*) PvP as direct player vs. player combat, not the newspeak indirect PvP
**) in its Elite Dangerous incarnation. Death penalties can be a good PvP element, it's the way it's implemented in ED that's problematic

 

[SamSlade]

What imbalance are you refering to? There's no balance issue relating to playing in private/solo. The only difference between open and private/solo is that in Open you have a 5% chance of being blown up, and in solo/private you have a close to 0% chance of being blown up. That doesn't affect powerplay balance at all, since all game modes are accessible to everyone.

Giving a Powerplay bonus to playing in Open is a silly idea. Fewer people playing in Open is not a powerplay issue, it is a wider-game issue and needs a wider-game solution. The main factor is the broken crime system, so that's the part to fix if you want more people in Open.

But then trying to force people into Open is a bad idea in itself. Let people play the way they want to. That is a defining characteristic of this game; that you're not railroaded into playing in one particular way, and it is a huge part of why the game is as popular as it is. It is hugely important to avoid doing anything that suggests that one way of playing is somehow better or worse than another, because all that will do is drive away the people who prefer the less favoured play styles.

Yes, it is easier to interact with NPCs in solo/private. So what? Some of us play games to relax, you know. If you want to interact with players, go to open, and if you want to interact with NPCs go to private/solo. The game already caters to both play styles just fine. What the game doesn't allow is for players who want to interact with other people to override the actions of players who only want to interact with NPCs. That is what giving any kind of bonus to Open play would do, and it would make the game far worse.

My advice to the devs: solve the actual problems with the game and completely ignore the people who want to impose their play style on everyone else. You'll lose at least half your playerbase if you start messing about with mode balance. This is an MMO, but perhaps in a different style to those that you are used to. In this MMO you don't always see people directly (this is a big galaxy after all), but you still feel the effects of their presence. We're all still playing in the same game area, and we all have equal ability to affect the galaxy, and are affected by it equally in turn. It is different to other games, and that's both intentional and the source of its appeal.

That's a very verbose road to 'don't care, doesn't affect me', also you immediately repeated the logical fallacy vis a vis solo/group play being equal... give some reasoned justification as to how being invisible isn't a benefit please.

Where is the 'force people to play in open' stuff coming from? The suggestion was to incentivise open pp not lock everything else out. If you don't want active PvP that's fine but risk vs. reward is a core tenant of good game design; it keeps things interesting for many people and doesn't hurt you at all.

Pretty much everything else you said was a resounding 'yes!' to my 'is power play passive-aggressive?' question.

 

[Arklar]

That's a very verbose road to 'don't care, doesn't affect me', also you immediately repeated the logical fallacy vis a vis solo/group play being equal... give some reasoned justification as to how being invisible isn't a benefit please.

Where is the 'force people to play in open' stuff coming from? The suggestion was to incentivise open pp not lock everything else out. If you don't want active PvP that's fine but risk vs. reward is a core tenant of good game design; it keeps things interesting for many people and doesn't hurt you at all.

Pretty much everything else you said was a resounding 'yes!' to my 'is power play passive-aggressive?' question.

If you will read my previous posts in this thread you will see that I agree that not being able to detect large attacks is an issue, so I think that perhaps you are being overly dismissive of people who do not agree with you fully.

What I also think is that the idea of incentivising Open play will a) upset people who want to play without direct PvP combat, b) do very little to bring more people into Open, and c) do absolutely nothing to help players detect snipes because those players will definitely stay in private groups to conduct those operations anyway.

The difference between Open and Solo/Private is not visible vs invisible, but 95% invisible vs 99.9% invisible. However the issue of individual cmdrs visibility has very little relevance in Powerplay because Powerplay mechanics are largely NPC-based and direct player-to-player interactions have very little impact in Powerplay. It's not the actions of individual players that are important, it is the npc interactions from organised groups of players that are the important part. It is deliberately not possible, and I don't think it will ever be possible within current P2P mechanics anyway, to gain useful insight into powerplay actions by visually observing players.

Powerplay is not passive-aggressive, as I think all forms of aggression in powerplay are active. Just sitting doing nothing doesn't result in anything. I think perhaps what you mean to say is that it is not confrontational-aggressive? Which is fine, because Arena is the part of the game for the confrontational-aggressive play style, not Powerplay.