I know I know... But still.

[[VR] Deggial]

GraXXoR, I share your feeling.

I did a full reset only a few (playing-) hours ago and am sitting in a fully A-rated Viper MkIV already. I planned to experience all the starter ships (e.g. the Adder), but had so much money to my deposit so fast, that I didn't see a reason not to advance immediately. And I didn't even use CGs or Robigo runs. Just plain, simple bounty-hunting.
Also, I am already 'allied' to the Empire - a status that took way longer to reach when I started the game, IIRC.

Maybe 'percentage' is the key word for salvation?
- If, as in your case, the rewards of CGs would evaluate the percentage of a player's contribution, the payout would be more reasonable. The reached tiers would still increase the total payout, but small contributions would recieve only an equivalent small reward.
This would be usefull for high-level contributors as well! For them, additional contributions would be worthwhile, as they would increase their final payout, even if the next tier is out of reach. (This is a thought I had, while hauling commodities for a CG in my T9 in my "previous life".)
- In my case, bounty hunting rewards should factor the damage done to the target ship. "Teaming up" with NPCs to hunt down valuable prey in an otherwise under-powered ship (a measly Eagle, in my case) would still be possible, but by far not as rewarding as currently.

And yes, I did it "wrong", too. I could have kept my E-rated Sidewinder and try to hunt down Anacondas.
But artificially binding one arm behind your back isn't the answer. Playing as optimal as possible (without using exploits!) is a source of satisfaction and enjoyment for many players - including me.
It is the developers responsibility to try to achieve a balance where this is possible and the overall progression is still in reasonable limits.
Currently, this doesn't seem to be the case.

--

@Miklos (did you edit your post? So did I in order to reflect it...)
The Clipper and other rank-locked ships are indeed the new long-term-goal.
Earning enough military ranks to be able to buy it does in fact require quite some dedication and playing-time. (See how I avoided the 'g'-word? )

 

[Hell Razor5543]

When I was helping 4 new Players (really new, not second account Players) the Station Build CG was running in LHS 3447. I got them involved in it (and I definitely did, to the eventual tune of 100Mcr), and at the end they all got 1Mcr bonuses. They all got better ships (although they all know about REBUY, one of the first lessons I teach), and are able to progress well through the game. I knew about CGs, and what the rewards could be, and helped others to benefit (as they were unaware of what a CG could do for them). I would assume that you knew about CGs, and you took part in one. Unless the first tier is never met, you will get rewarded for whatever you do.

 

[lysan]

I just started a new commander over the weekend and thought I would try to rank up again. Only this time, strictly no trading to make sure that I flavoured more combat this time around, since my main commander when from a hauler to a type 6 to an asp trader explorer and never really saw much combat until recently.

So anyway, my new commander is still harmless (about 10 kills so far) in his sidewinder and I saw that the Bounty hunting CG was on. Cool. A chance to kill something and make a few credits. It was hard work fining unaccompanied ships in the morass, but I managed to shoot two sidewinders and an eagle before going back to my main commander to help rid that CG of vile vermin.

This morning (in Japan) I see that my new commander received 1,000,000 CR bonus WTH???...

Stupid payout. Utterly ridiculous for killing two 4k bounty and one 5k ish bounty ships.

Ironically, my first commander had a much tougher struggle, upgrading his gear one piece at a time. There was a real sense of progression.
This time, I try to make it harder... and boom FDEV practically give me 1kkCR.

I know, I know.... I am complaining about being given money! What a complete moon-unit I am to complain at "free money"; a CMDR with strictly First Universe Problems! But still, where's the challenge? My "beginner" commander can now jump straight to nicely kitted out Viper with a mix of B class gubbins! And I've only played a couple of hours.

The problem is that just giving away money devalues the currency horribly because I remember with pride the first time I saw million in my account back in 2014 (I temporarily sold some bits and bobs just to see the balance go above the big 1M LOL) and remembered how it felt. I felt like I was finally on the road to riches. I even took a screenshot.

It seems that FDEV want all their players to become instant overnight millionaires. It seems that they are not able to create a balanced, nurturing environment (Nurturing in Elite: Dangerous?!?!!? Nurturing grudges, perhaps LOL) for players and their characters and that they have lost their sense of scale, perspective and progression. The lower tiers can be skipped overnight and all attendant content (what little there is) and arguably the most "fun" and "engaging" period becomes irrelevant within hours of starting the game.

I would have a good mind to add CGs to my ban list along with trading were they not the most fun part of the game.

Actually, I vow to give the 1kk CR to an in game charity as I see fit, instead of spending it all on my ship.

Oh, and I vow I will never (NEVER I TELL YOU, shaking my fist) go to ROBIGO.

TL;DR
FDEV appear incapable of offering a game with measured, reasonable progression for their players so as to allow them to develop their commanders in a fun, steady way.

Poor show FDEV, poor show.

I know this sounds snopis, however you are right, in the old BETA and post BETA days its was tough as nails to make money, unless you found a money cheat or something to give you an instant money boost.
The problem is that FD need to keep players around, they need to reward the new players. The hardcore space trucker or bounty hunter are in a very small number and will not be enough to finance the game. So money is now easy and FD need to make the money sink evne larger. So lets hope the NPC will be tougher, the new ships more difficult to find and so on.

 

[babelfisch]

Oh look, it's yet another thread where someone who's already experienced the game wants to make it more of a grind for others to do so. It's amazing how so many of you know what these other players want and need.

Early progression didn't feel like a grind to me. Getting from Sidewinder to the Adder and finally to the Cobra was quite rewarding. It really does matter if your Cobra us A rated or E rated, every upgrade opens new ways of gameplay. As soon as you are sitting in an Asp or Vulture credits don't matter, it just becomes your personal goal to own a better ship but it doesn't change the way you are playing the game.

Balancing credits is not an easy task. You need to make sure that new players don't skip early progression and experienced players don't need to grind. Credits need to be balanced around your ships capabilities, your ranks and reputation, and your experience. That is currently not the case.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

@Miklos (did you edit your post? So did I in order to reflect it...)
The Clipper and other rank-locked ships are indeed the new long-term-goal.
Earning enough military ranks to be able to buy it does in fact require quite some dedication and playing-time. (See how I avoided the 'g'-word? )

Not yet but true, its (thankfully) a rank locked ship, but as you know sometimes they have already lifted the lock. But the core remains true. What was worth a million CR
in the beginning turns now out to be 25-30 today. We should come back a little to the roots. I know its all around balancing all which is a hard job to do. Hoping for
developers to read and think and take the action.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[GraXXoR]

Possibly now would be a good time for some charitable donations? If you don't want it, gift it!

I don't think you read my post... I admit, it was quite long ;-)

I feel for them that didn't start playing ED before 1.1 or at least before 1.3. 1.3 totally ruined the progression system and after that it all has gone worse.

Agreed

Oh look, it's yet another thread where someone who's already experienced the game wants to make it more of a grind for others to do so. It's amazing how so many of you know what these other players want and need.

wrong. You clearly didn't read (understand) the post. You just jumped on the bandwagon saying "YACT" because it's "cool" to do that. See, I can make strong assumptions, too ;-)
In actual fact, I want to remove the broken bits and put the game back to a state where a new player gets to taste the various aspects of the game fully before moving on to the next bit, not charge willy nilly up to an Anaconda and proclaim the game boring.

 

[GraXXoR]

Easy money isn't new. It used to be that only traders, especially rares traders (and even more so when supplies used to be high), could get big profits easily. Now there are more ways to make easy money across other professions using CGs and through various buffs to payouts.

Do I like the easy money? That is a tougher question for me to answer. I trudged through many hours in my Hauler trying to figure out the game and even many more hours in the Cobra. I'd stayed away from rares trading b/c I heard they were way OP. However, when they patched it so that supplies stayed low, forcing you to visit more places, I was tempted. On one side, the gameplay behind following a 40 stop rares trade route was fun in its own right but, on the other side, the huge bump in profits (compared to finding trade routes the hard way and doing missions) made upgrading to an Asp and kitting up a T7 for trading pretty easy.

Once I felt the power of easy money, I couldn't help tapping that well along with others I'd become aware of existing. I quickly got into an Imperial Clipper and had a T9. By this point, though, I'd gotten tired of the progress through embiggen ship loop. These big expensive ships I'd dreamed about while in my lowly Hauler felt trivial. I couldn't build the same connection to these ships as I had with my first fleet.

That is when I shifted gears. That is when I started to participate in community goals to feel part of a group striving for the same thing. This is when I started doing more missions and exploring the nooks and crannies of populated space. My goals began to broaden, become varied, and even more random. I started making my own place in the this wide galaxy that I cared about. And not even just a particular place I call home but a version of me that plays out fantasies of being a space man in an alternate galaxy. I started having so much fun, I was even flying the Cobra and Viper again, I failed to notice the couple 100 million I'd accumulated. That didn't even matter anymore, though it did give me further freedom to follow whatever whims I have for a couple hours.

Easy money isn't new. Rediscovering why you love this game, can be.

Thank you for your considered answer. This FSD like progress through the game and lack of connection you stated is clearly a problem. I still feel closest to my Asp, my Type 9 and my Fer-de-lance for the "three routes" of play even though I have an Anaconda, Clipper and Corvette respectively. Because those are the ships in which I struggled and overcame obstacles the most.
My asp took me to the Core and Back, my Type 9 taught me the importance of NOT min maxing for trade if you want to live to tell the tale and my Fer de lance got me to Elite with 7000 of my almost 10000 kills done in this ship along with a long stint trying (and failing) to master FA-off.

The path was long and hard in all three ranks... And I admit I did purchase a Python for Robigo and even spent a day out there to see what all the fuss was. But it was sooooo repetitive and broken and I realised that I could have achieved Elite in a day or two, rendering the supreme rank worthless to me.... So I decided to RP it up a bit and instead sell them tonnes of Unknown Artefacts to help out their economy ;-)

The key word you used is "rediscover"... When us oldies started playing, there was a definite progression and it was slow and solid, but it seemed to me to promote or even invite gameplay rather than grind. Methodically I upgraded my ships, literally weapon by weapon and part by part.

Now I hear people saying... "Just grind up for an hour or two at ABC until you can afford an all A spec XYZ " They cannot rediscover as we can because they did not discover the joy in the first place.

 

[Flavourless]

Yes, like in other threads on the subject.

It is so easy to progress in the kiddies' Elite that has been developed - even in the beginning where in all of the previous Elite franchise offerings it was both tough and rewarding (and hence fun) to start out.
Nowadays there are so many handouts and easy options (pandering to the gratuitous quick-fix console crowd), that the game is actually pointless. It looks and sounds pretty, but that is the limit - style without substance.

You are supposed to have some time broke in a Sidewinder, not jump instantly to an advanced ship with a nice cash reserve where the game is effectively dead.

People even write about helping new players?? Good grief.

 

[GraXXoR]

A new commander starts out in LHS 3447 or some similar Federation system. The current CGs were near Achenar. It would take a newbie quite a bit of flying and some basic cash to actually get there and participate in the CG. If they don't know the basics, they could be shot on the way and if they never "quicksave" landed en route, they would be back at square one. I think it is a good reward for someone starting out fresh in a Sidey with 9ly jump range to travel 120ly and try and participate.

So, to you then, 1kkCr compensation is commensurate with jumping 120LK and killing three trivial AI ships ranked expert or even competent after watching a Youtube video? We clearly have very different views on monetary value. ;-)

For me, I would say getting a reward of DOUBLE the bounty is reasonable. Triple is generous. Quadruple is downright beneficent. But 50 x the bounty as a gift is, by any standard, broken.

That would be like me receiving 1,500,000,000 Credits (50 x 30M in bounties I hunted) for the CG in Phiagre. I believe this simple system would stop the "gaming" of CGs where commanders literally deliver one load's worth and collection several million credits.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Yes, like in other threads on the subject.

It is so easy to progress in the kiddies' Elite that has been developed - even in the beginning where in all of the previous Elite franchise offerings it was both tough and rewarding (and hence fun) to start out.
Nowadays there are so many handouts and easy options (pandering to the gratuitous quick-fix console crowd), that the game is actually pointless. It looks and sounds pretty, but that is the limit - style without substance.

You are supposed to have some time broke in a Sidewinder, not jump instantly to an advanced ship with a nice cash reserve where the game is effectively dead.

People even write about helping new players?? Good grief.

It heartens me to know that some people still understand the spirit of the original game(s) all these years on.
When I started out at the end of the alpha, there were no help guides, nothing really. So, once the game went live, I too helped other commanders get started. But now, there is no point, because unless they are seriously cognitively deficient, they'll be millionaires in a couple of days, rendering any help I would have given them worthless.

 

[nipdawg]

I don't think you read my post... I admit, it was quite long ;-)

wrong. You clearly didn't read (understand) the post. You just jumped on the bandwagon saying "YACT" because it's "cool" to do that. See, I can make strong assumptions, too ;-)
In actual fact, I want to remove the broken bits and put the game back to a state where a new player gets to taste the various aspects of the game fully before moving on to the next bit, not charge willy nilly up to an Anaconda and proclaim the game boring.

A new player wouldn't have the knowledge of the existence of CGs, nor the knowledge of how to get to one safely, nor how to sign up for one and recognize how much it is going to pay out simply for signing up. You had all this knowledge due to prior experience...which makes me wonder why you'd sign up for a CG and then whine about the payout. It says right there how much one gets for participation. It's not like CGs are ALL like this, either. I spent a week delivering Onionhead to Kappa Fornacis, remained in the top 15%, and was only given 2.5 mil as a reward. Next time don't expect the newbie experience just because you're starting out with a sidewinder and 1000 credits. It doesn't happen.

e:

I am not snivelling

Yes, yes you are.

 

[Ian Skippy]

CGs need to have an extra reward level, with the lowest 10% getting much less so you cant just cash in on little to no work. Anyway, the experience of a truly new player is very different. If they made it so starting over as an experienced player is difficult and rewarding new players would have absolutely zero chance. Check the newcomers forum, every week you'll find some folks wondering how you can make money. Any money at all. A mate started playing in january, and has winged with me every time. I explain how everything works, but I dont tell him the shortcuts. After about 130 hours or so he is currently in a D/C spec FDS, competent/merchant/trailblazer. He's currently on a total average of 150.000cr/hr because the start was S-L-O-W, but he's doing fine now. Yesterday we played four hours or so and it allowed him to get a 5B FSD. There is tangible progress every session, but the idea of owning a FDL or Python is far from his mind right now.

 

[Ripbudd]

It's not about getting 1M credits, it's about being able to get 1M paycheck if you're peniless or elite trader. There is no progression! You should be paid on your rank too. Good payout should be reward on you being high rank player and not to pay new players sums that make them skip 2 ranks every hour.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

I don't think you read my post... I admit, it was quite long ;-)



Agreed



wrong. You clearly didn't read (understand) the post. You just jumped on the bandwagon saying "YACT" because it's "cool" to do that. See, I can make strong assumptions, too ;-)
In actual fact, I want to remove the broken bits and put the game back to a state where a new player gets to taste the various aspects of the game fully before moving on to the next bit, not charge willy nilly up to an Anaconda and proclaim the game boring.

Some of us like that you can get into a Conda quickly, and think there should be ways to do so, both legally and illegally in game. There's no need to experience lower end ships if you don't enjoy them beyond bring stepping stones to the one you want.

Leave it up to each player, not up to you. What this game needs is more things to spend money on besides ships. Some expenses that you actually notice would be a good start.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

The real problem is that money is the only reward for anything, but there is a finite amount of things to spend money on. Once you get into the ship you want, it just piles up.

Money sinks would solve that. A good start would be having items useful to your ship be available on the commodities market. We should be able to buy synthesis materials. If you're planning a long exploration trip, why not be able to purchase some of the rarer materials at an extremely high cost instead of delaying the expedition for who knows how long while you look for them?

There should be a few paint jobs that you can purchase in game. Again, have it cost a lot. Other services like ship delivery, too late.

Having finite resources to purchase for a substantial fee would give us something to constantly spend money on if we wish instead of money becoming useless once you get into a certain ship. Give us reasons to continue earning money.

Once my house and car are paid off, I still need to work.

 

[nipdawg]

It's not about getting 1M credits, it's about being able to get 1M paycheck if you're peniless or elite trader. There is no progression! You should be paid on your rank too. Good payout should be reward on you being high rank player and not to pay new players sums that make them skip 2 ranks every hour.

Once again, this is yet another person whining about something that doesn't affect them. The very few newbies that participated in the recent bounty voucher CG deserve the money they earned, as CGs that pay out that much are a rarity. Kill profits for CGs, you kill interest. Kill interest, you lose players. It is in Frontier's best interest to keep things interesting for as much of their playerbase as possible. Yes, we're going to have those that cry foul about every little insignificant facet of the game, just as Ripbudd has done here...but I'm all for allowing players to make this game as hard or as easy on them as they prefer.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The real problem is that money is the only reward for anything, but there is a finite amount of things to spend money on. Once you get into the ship you want, it just piles up.

Money sinks would solve that. A good start would be having items useful to your ship be available on the commodities market. We should be able to buy synthesis materials. If you're planning a long exploration trip, why not be able to purchase some of the rarer materials at an extremely high cost instead of delaying the expedition for who knows how long while you look for them?

There should be a few paint jobs that you can purchase in game. Again, have it cost a lot. Other services like ship delivery, too late.

Having finite resources to purchase for a substantial fee would give us something to constantly spend money on if we wish instead of money becoming useless once you get into a certain ship. Give us reasons to continue earning money.

Once my house and car are paid off, I still need to work.

2.1 will provide alternative rewards, such as rare materials.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

It was never really hard to make money, either. You could be in a cobra day one just doing missions, then make a killing doing rage goods. I want to see rare goods become more lucrative again. They were basically nerfed into obscurity.

 

[NeilF]

I just started a new commander over the weekend and thought I would try to rank up again. Only this time, strictly no trading to make sure that I flavoured more combat this time around, since my main commander when from a hauler to a type 6 to an asp trader explorer and never really saw much combat until recently.

So anyway, my new commander is still harmless (about 10 kills so far) in his sidewinder and I saw that the Bounty hunting CG was on. Cool. A chance to kill something and make a few credits. It was hard work fining unaccompanied ships in the morass, but I managed to shoot two sidewinders and an eagle before going back to my main commander to help rid that CG of vile vermin.

This morning (in Japan) I see that my new commander received 1,000,000 CR bonus WTH???...

Stupid payout. Utterly ridiculous for killing two 4k bounty and one 5k ish bounty ships.

Ironically, my first commander had a much tougher struggle, upgrading his gear one piece at a time. There was a real sense of progression.
This time, I try to make it harder... and boom FDEV practically give me 1kkCR.

I know, I know.... I am complaining about being given money! What a complete moon-unit I am to complain at "free money"; a CMDR with strictly First Universe Problems! But still, where's the challenge? My "beginner" commander can now jump straight to nicely kitted out Viper with a mix of B class gubbins! And I've only played a couple of hours.

The problem is that just giving away money devalues the currency horribly because I remember with pride the first time I saw million in my account back in 2014 (I temporarily sold some bits and bobs just to see the balance go above the big 1M LOL) and remembered how it felt. I felt like I was finally on the road to riches. I even took a screenshot.

It seems that FDEV want all their players to become instant overnight millionaires. It seems that they are not able to create a balanced, nurturing environment (Nurturing in Elite: Dangerous?!?!!? Nurturing grudges, perhaps LOL) for players and their characters and that they have lost their sense of scale, perspective and progression. The lower tiers can be skipped overnight and all attendant content (what little there is) and arguably the most "fun" and "engaging" period becomes irrelevant within hours of starting the game.

I would have a good mind to add CGs to my ban list along with trading were they not the most fun part of the game.

Actually, I vow to give the 1kk CR to an in game charity as I see fit, instead of spending it all on my ship.

Oh, and I vow I will never (NEVER I TELL YOU, shaking my fist) go to ROBIGO.

TL;DR
FDEV appear incapable of offering a game with measured, reasonable progression for their players so as to allow them to develop their commanders in a fun, steady way.

Poor show FDEV, poor show.

Would you agree it was a rather exception CG in its effort to payout ratio? I don't normally bother with bounty hunting (let's call it by it's true name of endless RES farming), yet alone CG based ones, but wasn't this one a rather successful one compared to normally?

If so, couldn't you just take that as a lucky outcome given normally far lower pay outs?

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Would you agree it was a rather exception CG in its effort to payout ratio? I don't normally bother with bounty hunting (let's call it by it's true name of endless RES farming), yet alone CG based ones, but wasn't this one a rather successful one compared to normally?

If so, couldn't you just take that as a lucky outcome given normally far lower pay outs?

This one was unusually successful. I think it has to do with all 3 CG's being in 2 systems less than 25ly apart. It was nice for me to get back to combat though. I'm now 37% through deadly on my way to double elite.

 

[Arithon]

3,471 commanders slaved for days to build the bounty pot up to 20,036,003,568CR (20 billion+). I personally put in 17.5M CR into the effort, so that commanders with less expensive ships or high combat rank could join in and get a generous reward.

At it's end, the Community Goal was climbing at over 1M CR per second! That's community teamwork.

You think it was too easy? Well you were riding on the coat-tails of giants my friend, so raise a beer and a big thank you to them. You owe them your 1M CR windfall, because without that effort, you wouldn't have seen a bean.

As far as I'm aware, no other Community Goal has reached Tier 8 before (someone correct me by all means). So this was an exceptional circumstance.