Why PVP is Dead or Dying. PVE is now KING!

[Majinvash]

Maybe they lost a few players because because of the shared galaxy. However I think they would loose more players if they remove the shared galaxy. Anyway an open only galaxy wouldn't solve your problems because of time zones, instancing and network settings.

Instancing meh its getting better. Regularly see 20 or so ships in CG's
Time zones are relative, we had players from all over the world.
Network settings, if people need to cheat, people need to cheat.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[xondk]

There isn't a game made that doesn't lie about parts of it, everyones a victim of marketing at some point and in the case of ED its an issue of interpretation. I certainly didn't make a mistake buying the game i've had great enjoyment out of it, but i also learned a great deal about what happens if you allow flip flopping between modes which almost made it an interesting experience in itself.

Doubt that will come to anything I'm no developer lol but it might if i come across a game that suggests it will do so in the future.

Edit: I mean citing what they say and then translating that into results only works as a measuring stick if its reliable, you can't say its 100% by focusing on one issue its a culmination of everything they put together. I don't think FD have done badly in that regard but i don't think their record is impeccable either so the idea that if you feel mislead by what you read about the game its your fault is just a little dubious.

I mean they did write mmo on it which they get about 0% for in terms of how much its like the actual description lol

When you write that, though, yes I agree on marketing, trailers and whatnot, but what they described along development and kickstarter has held true last I checked with exception of offline.

As for marketing, there's the whole thing people said about the initial trailer, not being in game, indicating a pace that the game didn't have, this is true, however the events that do happen are there.
But at least to me, it is smoothing over some bumps compared to a ton of other trailers and such out there.

 

[babelfisch]

Instancing meh its getting better. Regularly see 20 or so ships in CG's

That's the point, you see only 20 ships but there are hundreds in other instances. How would you stop them in an open only galaxy? You can't because you are in another instance, that's pretty much the same we have now with solo and PG.
So you want to change something that will create costs, annoy the PvE and solo player base, bring issues with story telling because of two galaxies in different states. At the same time it doesn't really address your problem. I can't imagine that David Braben will like your idea...

 

[frostypaw]

That's the point, you see only 20 ships but there are hundreds in other instances. How would you stop them in an open only galaxy? You can't because you are in another instance, that's pretty much the same we have now with solo and PG.
So you want to change something that will create costs, annoy the PvE and solo player base, bring issues with story telling because of two galaxies in different states. At the same time it doesn't really address your problem. I can't imagine that David Braben will like your idea...

Which is why the people who want to play gang warfare prefer Eve - all one instance, you can exert total control and play overlord.

Which is, thank DBOBE, a different game.

I really don't want to play gang warfare. I want to live in a galaxy with a rich and involving storyline, and that's not going to exist in a galaxy of one-upmanship where force rules all

 

[Robert Maynard]

Again, FD screwed itself in the kickstarter by saying it wouldn't ever be subscription.

Not knowing exactly how many players of ED actually play on a day to day / monthly basis, everyone is guessing at a lot.

Could Open pay for Open, dunno. Will FD lose people to NMS and eventually SC, yep.

.... or, alternatively, brought in backers who would not have backed a subscription game - the game might not even have been successfully backed (although we'll never know).

Frontier know though - they know who plays in which mode and what they do when they're there. That they choose not to publish any figures is unsurprising.

Don't know if the subset of players in Open who would want a separate galaxy state could pay for it - no.

The last sounds suspiciously like a pair of "the game will die"s - with one potentially arriving a bit later than the other....

 

[shadragon]

The world has moved to a service based economy for many products.

Yet, it isn't mandatory to do so. With 1.45+ million sales, one could argue FD making remarkable progress going against the grain.

Again, FD screwed itself in the kickstarter by saying it wouldn't ever be subscription.

And therefore secured funding for the game you are playing / trashing today. Not everyone wants WoW.

Not knowing exactly how many players of ED actually play on a day to day / monthly basis, everyone is guessing at a lot.

I honestly don't care who else is on or not. The servers are up and running and I meet new people daily. I do my own thing and can interact as much as I want (or not.)

Could Open pay for Open, dunno. Will FD lose people to NMS and eventually SC, yep.

I paid my money for E: D. I go away at times and do other things, play other games. Once you've paid for the game you can play as often, or inoften as you want without having to pay an "Account reactivation fee" or whatever. I pre-ordered NMS and intend on giving that a good workout. Thing is, playing NMS does not invalidate my FD accounts.

It is unlikely I will be buying the next expansion and from the huge list of players that I never see any more on my friends list, I doubt they will be. ( Talking hundreds of players who I have not seen play this year )

I've never seen three people agree on everything so presuming those hundreds on your contact list have your identical motivations is rather presumptuous. Also, it's rather short-sighted to say you will not buy anything even before you know the details of what that thing will be. Not that there is an issue with that. You buy whatever you like, but so can we. E: D isn't for everyone, but buying a game then asking for substantial (and frankly game breaking) changes to mechanics along with the actual business model of a company is staggeringly naive.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Speaking as someone who plays in Open all the time, you don't speak for me. Have a nice day.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

i think star commander or whatever hes calling it is aimed more at pvp and combat than elite is - you will be in a First person shooter at some points in that. i dont know if frontier will go that way.

the reason i suggested the world of warcraft status setting is because were there to be one i might consider playing open. someone mentioned an accept interdiction y/n but that wasnt what i was implying at all and that mechanic doesnt need altering. you would still have to choose whether to submit or try to escape. but if i come out of interdiction and its a real pirate on his own, or the wing that attacked me looks like i might be able to take them on, then i might say yes when challenged, and combat would ensue. i believe doing it this way would mean there could still be pvp without one single ship config that you absolutely must have to win or survive pvp. maybe another way to help prevent griefing would be the requirement for someone with an interdictor to have to have cargo capacity, but this would cause some issues with bounty hunter configs.

i dont see why people think solo and groups players shouldnt be able to contribute to the galaxy background. i dont see how my ferrying mats to build a new station in a system in solo is any issue. i still get interdicted by pirates and crazies they are just npc ones. i can see how it might be an issue for those griefers driving open players who arent solely pvp oriented to switch to mobius or solo; because a lot of them probably did what they assume everyone in solo is 'going to do' i.e. build up their credits, build a overpowered pvp ship and return to open and be a fair fight to them not cannon fodder for them to get their giggles destroying. sorry, not interested.

i play solo to avoid the griefers, so i can play how i like - some trading, kws scanning of pirates who interdict me, i like doing missions and the rest of the time like now i am light years away from the bubble either sightseeing or looking to get my name on something as first discoverer. but i DONT want pvp to go away. i suppose if they changed solo to pve and made it so you have the choice to accept combat with a commander after they interdicted you out of supercruise, that might work.

i would like to point out to you majinvash that maybe the reason there wasnt a subscription model in kickstarter was because there was intended originally to be an offline solo. how many offline games are there that you have to pay monthly to play? even EA hasnt gone that far. yet lol.

 

[_Fissure]

That's because their only experiences of PvP have been people griefing.

I quite like PvP stuff, but in a PvP focused game. Here it's too easy for someone cheating their arses off with a ship capable of nothing but fighting to try and take me out and keep doing it again and again even if I keep killing them - makes the rest of the game ridiculous.

And no wasn't you I don't think, much as I'll lock horns with you I don't imagine you're a full rail guns the second folk drop out guy - I'm not grumpy because he killed me as he didn't, it's just the willfull shatternig of hard-won suspension of disbelief that I get grumpy about and the attempts to force it on people. Even with a locked Open only game all it takes is for someone to go crazy with missions while you're in bed while everyone avoids your system during your waking hours and it all falls apart - just gotta accept we're just a handful of pilots not the people running these empires.

Out of curiosity, how is someone using the modules and vessels avaliable in-game to outfit a platform fine tuned for combat "cheating their      off?"

 

[Derath]

Out of curiosity, how is someone using the modules and vessels avaliable in-game to outfit a platform fine tuned for combat "cheating their off?"

Probably because it doesn't serve an in-game purpose which is what throws the ships off so much, bounty hunters have to be mobile, pirates require cargo and people farming in CZ/HREZ need sustainability. All of those have their strength/weaknesses as general builds.

PvP builds don't, its deliberately gimping your ship to go 100% at winning one fight, which you won't receive anything for other than the destruction of said ship (which is generally a criminal act)

PvP is however fun for some people so i'm not saying they should change it or anything I have done more than my share of PvP too though never with an all or nothing build. Just wanted to point out I get why people think its dubious to balance around.

 

[frostypaw]

Out of curiosity, how is someone using the modules and vessels avaliable in-game to outfit a platform fine tuned for combat "cheating their off?"

Sort of the above - many of them aren't really viable for an in-game purpose - but that's not really what I mean.

It's more the PvP players seem most interested in how quickly to get billions so they can smash through 8 corvettes in a fun afternoons carnage. There are plenty of PvP players who don't abuse the systems too and hence present a fair and in-game-scale challenge, to them the combat is still meaningful and not pure shoot-em-up aw i died here we go again action

 

[Majinvash]

Yet, it isn't mandatory to do so. With 1.45+ million sales, one could argue FD making remarkable progress going against the grain.

And therefore secured funding for the game you are playing / trashing today. Not everyone wants WoW.

I honestly don't care who else is on or not. The servers are up and running and I meet new people daily. I do my own thing and can interact as much as I want (or not.)

I paid my money for E: D. I go away at times and do other things, play other games. Once you've paid for the game you can play as often, or inoften as you want without having to pay an "Account reactivation fee" or whatever. I pre-ordered NMS and intend on giving that a good workout. Thing is, playing NMS does not invalidate my FD accounts.

I've never seen three people agree on everything so presuming those hundreds on your contact list have your identical motivations is rather presumptuous. Also, it's rather short-sighted to say you will not buy anything even before you know the details of what that thing will be. Not that there is an issue with that. You buy whatever you like, but so can we. E: D isn't for everyone, but buying a game then asking for substantial (and frankly game breaking) changes to mechanics along with the actual business model of a company is staggeringly naive.

Speaking as someone who plays in Open all the time, you don't speak for me. Have a nice day.

Well seeing as you very recently tried to create a PVP Group to hunt PVP players inside Mobius, I am not sure I do speak for you. ( Screen grabs are available. You got shot down kinda hard in there huh )

Everyone looking to the past is great. Looking to the future is scary, I understand that.

Lets hope FD never changes anything and this game thrives on its merits and nothing else comes out to take any of the current open market share of space games.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[DaveB]

When NMS releases, I'll probably take it for a spin. If SC makes it to release before the zombie apocalypse I'll probably get that too.But ED won't lose me as a player. Right now if I want a first-person space game my choices are firing up one of my many old ones, which are becoming increasingly hard to keep running with a current OS, or ED. ED may lose a few player hours to those other games, which is pretty universal for any groundbreaking game when others crawl into it's niche, but I seriously doubt it's going to lose many players. There will always be something that distinguishes each of those games from the others, and makes them the "best" game for a particular players mood at the time. For ED I suspect it's going to be its sheer scale, to date nobody else has semi-realistically simulated an entire galaxy, much less THIS one, where we live in RL, and I think it will be a long time before anyone surpasses FDs achievement in that. It's like every ship in the game has capabilities like Carl Sagan's "ship of the imagination" and we can strap in and visit almost every single point of light we see when we step outside our back door on a clear night and look up. The facts of HOW they did it and that it isn't suited to PvP-centric balance or primary gameplay doesn't and won't change that. Sure, the hardcore PvPer will maybe end up spending more time in other games because they have their own priorities and their own set of criteria about what they want to experience, and I'm ok with that, they have as much right to play the game they want as I do. Frequently I join them, and will continue to do so whether in ED or some other game. It's just from the potential "menu" of spaceflight games that's coming, I don't see myself abandoning ED ever, not even if I have both NMS and SC loaded up on my machine as alternatives. I may play all three but you won;t see me ragequitting ED anytime unless FD really, monumentally, screw up the game by turning it into something totally different from how it currently is.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I agree with most of the OP, and also with Gluttonyfang's often posted opinion that Robigo largely killed piracy. However I do think that piracy is still quite healthy around CGs, so long as they are actually set up to allow stolen or transferred goods to contribute to the goal. Mining CGs in particular are always very badly set up, as they not only prevent pirates joining in meaningfully, they also restrict co-operative play between miners (due to transferred goods not counting).

Sneezes*

Wot wot?

I posted this somewhere recently, CG became a ground for PK a while back. It goes something like this:

Traders/CG participants get pirated by pirates and get attacked by Pkers (either way it's a loss, just the latter worse than the former).

Pirates get attacked by Pkers that prevent meaningful piracy (Combat fit vs piracy fit).

Pkers attack everything and anything that moves, and they know there will be players at CG and that's all they care about.

Result:

CG participants leave open since it's a completely rational and reasonable choice. Since everyone can do this, there is no reason to rally up any resistance force since that's a waste of time.

Pirates can't really pirate much due to constant disruption by the Pkers, so they just don't bother with CG and try to pirate at less crowded area.

Pkers end up fighting pkers since they are the only ones having any reason to remain at the CG.

 

[DaveB]

Nailed it, GluttonyFang.

I've said since Premium Beta that the PKers are the pirates greatest foe, because they are the ones urinating in the well you're trying to drink from.

 

[babelfisch]

Sneezes*
Traders/CG participants get pirated by pirates and get attacked by Pkers (either way it's a loss, just the latter worse than the former).

Pirates get attacked by Pkers that prevent meaningful piracy (Combat fit vs piracy fit).

Pkers attack everything and anything that moves, and they know there will be players at CG and that's all they care about.

It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girl dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sneezes*

Bless you.

Traders/CG participants get pirated by pirates and get attacked by Pkers (either way it's a loss, just the latter worse than the former).

Pirates get attacked by Pkers that prevent meaningful piracy (Combat fit vs piracy fit).

Pkers attack everything and anything that moves, and they know there will be players at CG and that's all they care about.

Result:

CG participants leave open since it's a completely rational and reasonable choice. Since everyone can do this, there is no reason to rally up any resistance force since that's a waste of time.

Pirates can't really pirate much due to constant disruption by the Pkers, so they just don't bother with CG and try to pirate at less crowded area.

Pkers end up fighting pkers since they are the only ones having any reason to remain at the CG.

Which begs the question - why don't the pirates band together to deal with the PKing element that is bad for business?

 

[Majinvash]

It's the old, old story; droid meets droid, droid becomes chameleon, droid loses chameleon, chameleon turns into blob, droid gets blob back again, blob meets blob, blob goes off with blob and droid loses blob, chameleon and droid. How many times have we seen that story?"

Bless you.


Which begs the question - why don't the pirates band together to deal with the PKing element that is bad for business?

*Cough high wake Cough*


*Cough Combat logging Cough*


*Cough No one ever dies with HRP unless they want to Cough*

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Derath]

Nailed it, GluttonyFang.

I've said since Premium Beta that the PKers are the pirates greatest foe, because they are the ones urinating in the well you're trying to drink from.

Its so true but we are as powerless to do anything about them as the people getting PK'ed, worse still we tend to get lumped together on the forums

 

[DaveB]

It's the old, old story; droid meets droid, droid becomes chameleon, droid loses chameleon, chameleon turns into blob, droid gets blob back again, blob meets blob, blob goes off with blob and droid loses blob, chameleon and droid. How many times have we seen that story?"

http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/features/fiction/camille/camille_4.jpg




*Cough high wake Cough*


*Cough Combat logging Cough*


*Cough No one ever dies with HRP unless they want to Cough*

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

But if the PKers are high waking and combat logging to get away from you pirates, doesn't that mean they are NOT eating your food and annoying your prey so much that they cease playing in open? Double win, you get some fun fights and get to send some other pilot feeling his oats running with his tail between his legs, you also reduce his impact on the traders which means more targets for you to feed on.

 

[Derath]

But if the PKers are high waking and combat logging to get away from you pirates, doesn't that mean they are NOT eating your food and annoying your prey so much that they cease playing in open? Double win, you get some fun fights and get to send some other pilot feeling his oats running with his tail between his legs, you also reduce his impact on the traders which means more targets for you to feed on.

You can't pirate with interuptions generally, it isn't enough to chase them off or make them combat log if they come straight back because your essentially mirroring their behaviour just with a specific target in mind. Piracy is pretty slow at the best of times

I think to make them stop you'd need to be able to destroy them, repeatedly without any chance of them escaping.