So what kind of small thruster buff can we expect?

[Hydrino]

I don't care about top speed as much as I do maneuverability/acceleration. If the smaller ships can finally outrun the turret/gimbal tracking speed of instant hit laser weapons then they will be a hell of a lot more useful and fun to fly.

+1 for this. I've said it before this balancing still seems to miss the mark for me. Maybe just my junk pilot skills but I try all the moves with maneuvering thrusters, boost and such, and the big ships seem only barely less maneuverable, making their gimbals uber effective.

Fighters should be able to gain position superiority without massive effort. Fast attack boat vs. Oil Tanker, there is no doubt the attack boat can stick to the 6 or wherever it wants.

 

[Ziljan]

but now we have the point of "facetanking" while backpeddling without the necessity to think prior to engagement.

As was hinted at by SJA and other Devs, back pedaling may not be an option anymore if small ship speeds are sufficiently buffed. I think bigger ships may end up needing gimbals or turrets now, which we can somewhat defend against in small ships with range and chaff.

This is probably also why class 4 gimbals were introduced

 

[WR3ND]

+1 for this. I've said it before this balancing still seems to miss the mark for me. Maybe just my junk pilot skills but I try all the moves with maneuvering thrusters, boost and such, and the big ships seem only barely less maneuverable, making their gimbals uber effective.

Fighters should be able to gain position superiority without massive effort. Fast attack boat vs. Oil Tanker, there is no doubt the attack boat can stick to the 6 or wherever it wants.

I'm sure I'm not the best combat pilot out there, but on the more maneuverable ships such at the Vulture, pitch up and vertical thrusters down in combination with forward boosting timed well works quite effectively for me. Based on my limited testing, the Eagle is better still at this, though I haven't used one in combat much really myself.

But yeah, it isn't a sure thing though. The Eagles being as vulnerable as they are, even with great maneuverability as far as the game is concerned, need to be able to get in and out of combat fairly effectively too. Same with the Sidewinder and the other small ships too, but also because they aren't as maneuverable. Better thrusters/boosters should help in maneuverability in some respects too. I agree that this has been a much needed upgrade for them in general and I look forward to testing it too.

On the other hand, to paraphrase what Ziljan said, it does kind of seem even more like shooting fish in a barrel with the new weapons coming into the game. I guess we'll see how well it plays out.

Disclaimer: I'm much more of an explorer anyway in the game, though I do have some hobby aircraft and sim type experience. "Six of one and a half dozen of the other."

 

[fourty6to3]

+1 for this. I've said it before this balancing still seems to miss the mark for me. Maybe just my junk pilot skills but I try all the moves with maneuvering thrusters, boost and such, and the big ships seem only barely less maneuverable, making their gimbals uber effective.

Fighters should be able to gain position superiority without massive effort. Fast attack boat vs. Oil Tanker, there is no doubt the attack boat can stick to the 6 or wherever it wants.

Agree'd, and in my opinion it's not a problem about junk pilot skills. FD wanted to get rid of turreting and the consequence of doing so was replacing it with figure-8 jousting. The restrictiveness of the flight model is fundamentally flawed, and it shows up exponentially when flying the smaller ships against turrets/gimbals. I wish the smaller ships flew more like Diaspora or *gulp*, dare I say, Star Citizen - able to zip around and sustain evasive maneuvers against instant hit laser weapons. I'm talking about Viper on down, otherwise the smaller ships are just as boring to fly as any other - with the exception that they are just cannon fodder. With how easy and fast these small ships are to kill, at least make them a son of a gun to land a shot.

 

[the100thmonkey]

These small ships needed a speed balance for a long time. And with the addition of GIMBALED huge weapons with a high firing rate, it's going to be open season on small ships even with the speed boost.

As for the degree of the speed boost, we'll know soon enough. They said these thrusters would cost millions of credits. Which is several hundred times more than the base ships, and more at least 10 times the cost of current small ship thrusters.

In other words, this is very likely to be a pure upgrade with little to no downsides. In the devs own words "this is the ultimate upgrade for these small ships".

I'm hoping it helps the pitch rate of the Viper Mk. III, although if it doesn't it's still going to make that ship insanely fun to fly. I've been experimenting with a racing build on the Viper Mk. III and found that it turns much better when it's super-light. The problem with this is that you can forget weapons, utility mounts, a class 3 powerplant and a class 3 shield.

 

[Noddie]

I like my ships to fly like ships. To be honest, anything much bigger than a Vulture is really getting too cumbersome for me. I'm looking forward to this upgrade, but a bit disappointed that it isn't available for the Cobra MKIII (Class 4 drives in that baby).


It may be a straightforward upgrade, or it may have a strict downside such as reduced agility whilst you're using it. IE you press boost and hit 650ms.... is an entirely straight line.

I wish there were some really high-value small ships, but there really aren't. I think my acquisitions would stop at the Python. After that it's all a bit to heavy!

 

[WR3ND]

I like my ships to fly like ships. To be honest, anything much bigger than a Vulture is really getting too cumbersome for me. I'm looking forward to this upgrade, but a bit disappointed that it isn't available for the Cobra MKIII (Class 4 drives in that baby).


It may be a straightforward upgrade, or it may have a strict downside such as reduced agility whilst you're using it. IE you press boost and hit 650ms.... is an entirely straight line.

I wish there were some really high-value small ships, but there really aren't. I think my acquisitions would stop at the Python. After that it's all a bit to heavy!

The Cobra doesn't really need a "buff" though, well, as things are now. It's one of the most cost effective ships in the game that you can do quite a lot with without all that much risk. We'll see if there's a chance of it being dethroned as the prince of paupers now though.

 

[slothman320]

I have a very simple problem with this games flight model. It is far from accurate with how space flight would actually work. The fact we have a Max speed is rather idiotic considering there is no such thing as resistance in space. Without a gravity field or solid object there is nothing to slow you down or provide resistance.
If I fired a thruster on the nose of my anaconda for a few seconds (assuming that the thruster puts out similar force to an f-16 or equivalent) that anaconda should be sent into a dizzying spin capable of doing a full 180 in a few seconds flat. When mirrored on the rear of the ship the turn speed would be doubled and since there's no resistance in space every single second that thruster burns the ship is accelerating faster. Essentially instead of handling like a big airplane the ship should instead be moving more akin to a house fly or mosquito in terms of maneuverability.

Space engineers is a good example of this. Granted that focuses more on the simulation aspect than elite does but regardless. I would much rather see a player who embraces the "zero resistance environment" that is space be the true winner of the fight. And before people say anything no flight assistance does not do what I said above. All flight assistance appears to do is disable the rotational correction and stabilizing thrusters (still a very nice feature though step in the right direction).

Imagine the scene in the last star fighter where the ship enters that crazy death spiral. In atmosphere such a maneuver would tear the ship apart. In space you're able to make these insane maneuvers that boggle the mind because we can't do that in our atmosphere where we are use to seeing such things. The combat in this game would go from shallow jousting and "who can't get behind the other first" gameplay. There's infinite potential with this because SPACE.

 

[WR3ND]

I have a very simple problem with this games flight model. It is far from accurate with how space flight would actually work. The fact we have a Max speed is rather idiotic considering there is no such thing as resistance in space. ...

Of course, but it is the way it is for game reasons, like it or not. I'd like this game to be more of a sim type game as well in some respects, but I've come to accept that that isn't likely to make the most viable of games in general. I could be wrong.

 

[slothman320]

Space science is my favorite kind of science and it's genuinely exciting to see a game get it wrong because it opens up an opportunity to discuss the science behind things. The idea of plasma being an end all weapon in space is baffling. Plasma packs in credible thermal energy that is robbed far too quickly in the vacuum of space to be practical. The use of it as a planetary assault weapon is just as ridiculous due to the fact that it must travel which also reduces the amount of thermal energy it will have when it reaches its target.
Plasma has countless other uses that would be far more practical and we do see it in our engine flares which for some reason produce exhaust despite the fact that we are clearly burning nuclear fuel rather than kerosene or another flammable liquid.

 

[slothman320]

Of course, but it is the way it is for game reasons, like it or not. I'd like this game to be more of a sim type game as well in some respects, but I've come to accept that that isn't likely to make the most viable of games in general. I could be wrong.

Oh you're absolutely right. This game would be the hardest thing in the planet to get into. The learning curve would be almost as sharp as the turns you'd be able to make. But eventually I'd like to see possibly a hardcore server with much higher realism.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Max speed would he determined hy the exhaust speed of the propellant.

The only source of thrust that could provide acceleration up to light speed would be electromagnetic radiation, but the thrust to a weight ratio would be rather low, as massless particles aren't particularly good at imparting momentum (and then there's the whole "mass increases with velocity" thing which makes acceleration at relativistic speeds even more difficult.)

So acceleration is determined by the mass of the object being moved and the magnitude of the force acting upon it. You're perfectly welcome to criticise the acceleration model, but I'd suggest that ships in a fully realistic zero-G combat situation wouldn't even see each other - the jousting would be far worse than it is now at velocities of tens-to-hundreds of kilometers a second. Indeed, combat would be likely to be fully computerized as it would be otherwise impossible to hit enemy ships. Think of the combat in The Expanse - nuclear torpedoes and railguns would be the order of the day.

Oh, and the basic limit to the manouevring of ships is human physiology. At the kind of accelerations you seem to want to play at, pilots would be reduced to a lumpy paste in short order.

 

[SushiCW]

+1 for this. I've said it before this balancing still seems to miss the mark for me. Maybe just my junk pilot skills but I try all the moves with maneuvering thrusters, boost and such, and the big ships seem only barely less maneuverable, making their gimbals uber effective.

Fighters should be able to gain position superiority without massive effort. Fast attack boat vs. Oil Tanker, there is no doubt the attack boat can stick to the 6 or wherever it wants.

In many cases the large ships are, in fact, more nimble than small ships.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465


I doubt the thruster upgrade will change that, however.

 

[WR3ND]

Max speed would he determined hy the exhaust speed of the propellant.

...

The ship would keep accelerating as long as it's able to throw stuff out of the back, regardless of its specific speed. The thing with "light speed" is that it's always the same speed regardless of how fast you're moving; that's why you can never reach it. The amount of time you take up changes, which is called timed dilation. That's why the speed of light is always the same speed regardless of how fast you're going or where you're viewing it from.

From the point of view of a "stationary" (I use the term very loosely here and only for clarification) observer, you can never reach the speed of light because you'd essentially be moving through time infinitely fast in comparison, that is, the observer would see no time pass for you at all. Fuel isn't a very effective propellant when it takes forever to burn. It doesn't get to that point though. The only known exception to this that I'm aware of would be at the event horizons of black holes.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Sorry, you're right - I meant acceleration.

 

[WR3ND]

Sorry, you're right - I meant acceleration.

Ah, I see. Fair enough then.

Didn't know this thread would turn into a science discussion, but hey, I'm not complaining. Just a little surprised.

 

[Ziljan]

I'm hoping it helps the pitch rate of the Viper Mk. III, although if it doesn't it's still going to make that ship insanely fun to fly. I've been experimenting with a racing build on the Viper Mk. III and found that it turns much better when it's super-light. The problem with this is that you can forget weapons, utility mounts, a class 3 powerplant and a class 3 shield.

Well since it's going to be an overall better engine, it may also have have higher optimal engine mass. We can hope anyway

 

[the100thmonkey]

Well since it's going to be an overall better engine, it may also have have higher optimal engine mass. We can hope anyway

I accidentally found a way, while practising last night, to get my Viper to boost past 480m/s, at least on the speed indicator, although I still haven't clarified yet whether that's actual ground speed or not.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I suspect that better thrusters means better maneuverability, too... Sounds obvious to me.

 

[WR3ND]

I suspect that better thrusters means better maneuverability, too... Sounds obvious to me.

Aye, you'd think that, but then adding on military bulkheads on my Vulture doesn't impact maneuverability nor top speed at all with the A rated thrusters. I'm guessing that may be due to its top speed being somehow "artificially" reduced to a certain level for balancing reasons, though I'm not sure.

But yeah, I would hope so.