Those who dislike the concept of RNG Engineering, what would you propose as a replacement?

No, you have been arguing realism this whole time, which is why I find it amusing that you now dismiss it. Looking for realistic ways to justify the RNG.

I like RNG because it gives ships their own unique quirks and peculiarities. I like it from a gameplay perspective. It sounds like fun to me.

Anyway, I am glad we've agreed on the realism part. Looking forward to not hearing you rant about your engineering experiences, which I guess you brought up for no reason whatsoever as you dont consider realism important. :)

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J'adore you guys! [haha]

You know all the talk of coffee on the first page was going to attract me here at some point heh!

Promise no coffee stories, or car tales this time.

For once have a sensible.. well, semi-sensible contribution to a thread.

Whilst I really dislike dice in a game about 'blazing your own trail'.. I have had certain thoughts of possibly being able to 'influence' the items.

So in the real world, you seldom find an engineer to actually do everything perfectly.. What if... each modification was indeed a separate modification? So any engineer can do any job badly (or well by fluke), but each engineer specializes in a specific field of study. So, perhaps one engineer is a master of optics, so he can help make your laser a certain colour. Maybe another engineers field of expertise is thermodynamics.. perhaps another is energy displacement (for thrust power etc). What I'm getting at is, if you want a great item, each engineer can help you in specific areas, so if you're happy to travel about, work for the engineer's trust, he can help you tweak certain areas.. and ofc you can still have this RNG (arrrgh) stuff, but the margin for error substantially reduces when you enlist the help of a specialist in what you're trying to alter.

Maybe I'm still tanked with vanilla latte, but it sort of makes sense in my head.

Well, thats how it works, right? If you want to increase DPS, you find the 'increase DPS' engineer. If you want a colder weapon, you find an engineer who can do that. Thats what they said in the stream. Its not as if you give a weapon to an engineer and say 'yo, do something!' and random magic will happen.
 
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Looking at the poll it is, for all intents and purposes, a 50/50 split between the community.

This (to me) suggests that it's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant either.

So I wondered what suggestions you fantastic commanders have if the RNG either went away completely, or was more predictable?

If you'd remove it entirely, would you gate it some other way? Cash? Missions? Spending a few romantic nights with your engineer under the blanket of the beautiful night sky?


Tell us! :)


(Also can we keep it civil! :) )

Simple:

  1. All mods have a fixed ratio of boni and mali (e.g. for every 1% more damage, 1% less heat efficiency).
  2. Special mods like the healing beam would be their own, dedicated recipe you can pick.
  3. Since special mods are not random, only specific engineers offer specific special mods. These follow some internal logic, for example all Imperial aligned engineers can make your lasers blue, all underworld engineers have stuff to disrupt and slow down the FSD.
  4. Your standing with the engineer determines which recipes you can access. Recipes intended to be rarer need higher standing and rarer material.
  5. Modifications to the stats come, as it is shown in the stream, in various grades of different intensity, but the proportions accoridng to 1) stay the same.
  6. Any item can have at most 1 stat and 1 special mod at a time, but you decide whether and which special mod to get in addition to stat changes.

Well, thats how it works, right? If you want to increase DPS, you find the 'increase DPS' engineer. If you want a colder weapon, you find an engineer who can do that. Thats what they said in the stream. Its not as if you give a weapon to an engineer and say 'yo, do something!' and random magic will happen.

Well RNG currently is two-fold:

a) The intensity of stat changes, and how much of a malus you get for your bonus. Depending on the roll, two people can have the same damage buff but one has a much higher negative on top of that than the other. Fixed ratios make this system fairer and more predictable. Different strengths of modifications would come through the different higher grades available at higher standing.

b) Special mods, like the heat beam, or mass-lock torpedo. These are purely RNG. You can't go to a specific engineer and tell them "make me a heat beam", you tell them to modify some entirely unrelated aspect and repeated the process until the modification you actually seek comes out. And you better pray that it doesn't roll in just that attempt where the stat roll is particularly bad...
 
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I remember a gent saying he wanted a specific colour so whilst the color of your weapon doesn't really affect game play, well maybe a pseudo clan could have a bizarre colour as a sort of 'calling card' maybe.. but they can visit a specific engineer specializing in lazer optics to effectively; very strongly influence the probability of colour x being a high certainty.

Even down to the nuts and bolts of, I have xyz upgraded by engineer 'scrappy doo', he tinkered around with my frame shift drive, and now i get an extra 20% from jump range.. but damn, every time I use it, the temperature hits 110% from cold. You could go to an engineer specialist in thermo dynamics to tinker around with the heat distribution, perhaps at a cost of weight or fragility of the FSD itself.
 
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I thought these were engineers on the outskirts of space that do work for you when you request it, only after you bring them materials. How is this mass produced, again?

They have all been mass produced. The engineers do not create the weapon/module from scratch, they modify what you already have as far as I can tell, or they get a mass produced item for you and they tinker with what they have, giving varied results.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I would also think that the higher the grade the less variance you will get, but we will have to wait and see on that.

The only thing I am not that happy about is the way the special features are applied. Hopefully that will change as it shouldn't be so random. You should be able to ask for a specific special feature and then have a chance of getting it applied, obviously the higher the grade, the higher the chance but also a higher cost.
 
To start with, crafting (of any kind) is a totally inappropriate game mechanic for Elite at its current stage of development. Why? Because Elite has no concept of personal inventory, no concept of "tools," and no system of materials or ingredients other than the crap they shoehorned in just now to force their Engineers idea to work. You want to know how a decent, rudimentary crafting system should work? Look at No Man's Sky. In that game, everything is made of *something,* all of those somethings can be useful, and different locations have different types and quantities of Somethings which require varying degrees of time and skill to acquire. As your toolset progresses you become better able to harvest the different somethings from the different places, and this in turn allows you to expand your toolset even further. You modify your spacesuit to explore toxic environments, you modify your jump drive to travel further, you modify your multitool to break down harder substances or shoot more dangerous monsters, which in turn yields rarer and more potent materials for crafting yet better equipment. Crafting flows into exploration flows into combat flows into crafting again. None of it is a side activity it is all gameplay.

Or look at minecraft. Or space engineers. Or better yet look at *modded* minecraft: the Tinker's Construct mod is a perfect template for how a weapons and equipment upgrade system should work. Or look at Thaumcraft for another inspiring example.


Now look at Elite. It doesn't have the systems to support a good crafting experience. It's gameworld is static and insubstantial. There is no persistence from one place to another, and everything, everywhere, is essentially a randomly spawned isolated event with no connection to anything else whatsoever. In-game crafting mechanics, when they work well, are compelling because they highlight and accentuate the interconnectedness of the ALREADY INTERCONNECTED systems in the game. Elite doesn't have any tightly interconnected systems. There *are* some *loosely* interconnected systems: PowerPlay and the BGS. But these systems are opaque, inconsequential, and heavily reliant on RNG.

The what, when, where, and why of almost every "event" that you will experience in Elite, is the result of a dice roll. The gameworld functions like a boardgame in most respects. You land on a given space, roll the dice, and see what happens. Sometimes it's space pirates. Sometimes it's a distress signal. Sometimes it's a canister of coffee floating out in the void. There is nothing you can do and no place you can go to influence this dynamic; all you can do is Deal With It.

And that in itself is OK. Boardgames can be fun, sophisticated even. But they can't simulate a living world very well and they can't accommodate a crafting system. The best you can do is give people lots of different powerups, which is what the 2.1 update does.

You want a compelling system of Crafting and Tinkering for Elite? Sorry, but you have to do the real work of making an interconnected world of systems first. Once you do that, you can add a good crafting mechnic, although at that point you might not even need it. If you don't lay down a solid foundation where your world has Place and Materiality, then "crafting" is always going to end up with social-media style cell-phone game mechanics like we're seeing now.
 
Looking at the poll it is, for all intents and purposes, a 50/50 split between the community.

This (to me) suggests that it's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant either.

Game design shouldn't be a democracy. Particularly one controlled by people who haven't yet played the thing they're complaining about.
 
Game design shouldn't be a democracy. Particularly one controlled by people who haven't yet played the thing they're complaining about.

That is true. Some people forget that this game, just like many others is following a vision developers have. It's their child, their expression of themselves I guess. Is that too posh?)
 
Game design shouldn't be a democracy. Particularly one controlled by people who haven't yet played the thing they're complaining about.

People are complaining because for all intents and purposes, most of them *have* played the thing they're complaining about. It's not like Frontier's take on loot and crafting is novel or imaginative in any way. We've seen these exact same tired mechanics used over and over again. They are a mainstay in cell phone games, low-rent fantasy rpgs, and microtransaction laden social media games. We've played those games, and we've played Elite. Those games + Elite is not an appealing proposition. Even if everything is perfectly balanced (which it won't be), it's a weaksauce design philosophy, tremendously unimaginative, and needlessly abstract. This is doubly disappointing in a game which has previously received so much praise for its hard sci-fi sensibilities and sim-like approach to game mechanics.
 
To start with, crafting (of any kind) is a totally inappropriate game mechanic for Elite at its current stage of development. Why? Because Elite has no concept of personal inventory, no concept of "tools," and no system of materials or ingredients other than the crap they shoehorned in just now to force their Engineers idea to work. You want to know how a decent, rudimentary crafting system should work? Look at No Man's Sky. In that game, everything is made of *something,* all of those somethings can be useful, and different locations have different types and quantities of Somethings which require varying degrees of time and skill to acquire. As your toolset progresses you become better able to harvest the different somethings from the different places, and this in turn allows you to expand your toolset even further. You modify your spacesuit to explore toxic environments, you modify your jump drive to travel further, you modify your multitool to break down harder substances or shoot more dangerous monsters, which in turn yields rarer and more potent materials for crafting yet better equipment. Crafting flows into exploration flows into combat flows into crafting again. None of it is a side activity it is all gameplay.

Or look at minecraft. Or space engineers. Or better yet look at *modded* minecraft: the Tinker's Construct mod is a perfect template for how a weapons and equipment upgrade system should work. Or look at Thaumcraft for another inspiring example.


Now look at Elite. It doesn't have the systems to support a good crafting experience. It's gameworld is static and insubstantial. There is no persistence from one place to another, and everything, everywhere, is essentially a randomly spawned isolated event with no connection to anything else whatsoever. In-game crafting mechanics, when they work well, are compelling because they highlight and accentuate the interconnectedness of the ALREADY INTERCONNECTED systems in the game. Elite doesn't have any tightly interconnected systems. There *are* some *loosely* interconnected systems: PowerPlay and the BGS. But these systems are opaque, inconsequential, and heavily reliant on RNG.

The what, when, where, and why of almost every "event" that you will experience in Elite, is the result of a dice roll. The gameworld functions like a boardgame in most respects. You land on a given space, roll the dice, and see what happens. Sometimes it's space pirates. Sometimes it's a distress signal. Sometimes it's a canister of coffee floating out in the void. There is nothing you can do and no place you can go to influence this dynamic; all you can do is Deal With It.

And that in itself is OK. Boardgames can be fun, sophisticated even. But they can't simulate a living world very well and they can't accommodate a crafting system. The best you can do is give people lots of different powerups, which is what the 2.1 update does.

You want a compelling system of Crafting and Tinkering for Elite? Sorry, but you have to do the real work of making an interconnected world of systems first. Once you do that, you can add a good crafting mechnic, although at that point you might not even need it. If you don't lay down a solid foundation where your world has Place and Materiality, then "crafting" is always going to end up with social-media style cell-phone game mechanics like we're seeing now.

Utterly brilliant post. I applaud you. I do.

This so perfectly addresses Elite's issues, that honestly, nothing more need be said about crafting in this game.
 
Looking at the poll it is, for all intents and purposes, a 50/50 split between the community.

This (to me) suggests that it's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant either.

So I wondered what suggestions you fantastic commanders have if the RNG either went away completely, or was more predictable?

If you'd remove it entirely, would you gate it some other way? Cash? Missions? Spending a few romantic nights with your engineer under the blanket of the beautiful night sky?


Tell us! :)


(Also can we keep it civil! :) )

Alines! Where is my aliens!!!!?
 
Game design shouldn't be a democracy. Particularly one controlled by people who haven't yet played the thing they're complaining about.
Agreed, but RNG, simply put, is lazy game design. They went through the trouble of making synthesis exact (and few, if any, are complaining about that today), yet here is 2.1 and that consistency just went out the window.

Two weapons of the same class / type generated 15 seconds apart can have radically different specs. That does not make sense. It's no different than a weapon in a Borderlands loot drop.
 
Should FD scrap 2.1, or at least the Engineers and Loot+Crafting part, and just move on to 2.2? Is that the consensus we're reaching?

Ohh I got a better idea! Scrap Elite: Dangerous altogether and make Elite: Elite!
 
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Looking at the poll it is, for all intents and purposes, a 50/50 split between the community.

This (to me) suggests that it's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant either.

So I wondered what suggestions you fantastic commanders have if the RNG either went away completely, or was more predictable?

If you'd remove it entirely, would you gate it some other way? Cash? Missions? Spending a few romantic nights with your engineer under the blanket of the beautiful night sky?


Tell us! :)


(Also can we keep it civil! :) )

I'm fine with the variance in the stats, it's the special effect completely random (AFAIK) that is bothering me as it's the most important part of the weapon.

I'd like to have a way to choose it (maybe by bringing more resources to craft), or, at least, that we can ask for something that suits our style of play or that the engineer's specialization will assure us to get something of a specific type (so that a player that want to pirate does not get a healing laser from the RNG...)
 
People are complaining because for all intents and purposes, most of them *have* played the thing they're complaining about. It's not like Frontier's take on loot and crafting is novel or imaginative in any way. We've seen these exact same tired mechanics used over and over again. They are a mainstay in cell phone games, low-rent fantasy rpgs, and microtransaction laden social media games. We've played those games, and we've played Elite. Those games + Elite is not an appealing proposition. Even if everything is perfectly balanced (which it won't be), it's a weaksauce design philosophy, tremendously unimaginative, and needlessly abstract. This is doubly disappointing in a game which has previously received so much praise for its hard sci-fi sensibilities and sim-like approach to game mechanics.

There are plenty of great games with random elements.

Dunno. I like games where there's a sense of anticipation when you pick up some loot! Perhaps I'm some horrible crass mobile phone playing idiot, but it feels to me like the game could do with a few more simple thrills. If you're a Horizons player don't you enjoy not knowing what's going to pop out of a rock when you shoot it? Maybe it will be that ultra-rare material I've been looking for? If I knew what I was getting I wouldn't bother looking.

Perhaps this sort of thing exposes the mechanics too much -- hang on a sec, we're just playing some stupid game! - but I think it will probably add some enjoyable unpredictability to both the shopping and the fighting.
 
The player should always have a way to get the stats or effects they wish that is within their control.
Why? then we just end up with situations like we have now people find the "best" 'meta' and everyone begins using it, so there's a million of those and nothing else, at least in my eyes that seems boring, what is wrong in your ship having some variety, I mean even now a days with factories churning out cars, every car tunes slightly differently despite being from the same factory, and I believe this is what the randomness is meant to show? isn't close enough to similar upgrades good enough?
 
My replacement system would be something like this,

Stop being so overly dramatic about a system that hasn't even been tested yet. More control vs RNG than the drama queens would have everyone believe.

Test system out thoroughly and provide viable feedback to the dev team during the upcoming beta.

No crying over spilled milk before it's even spilled..
 
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