Definitely picture 2, but the 3300 equivalent of it. Add some steampunk elements and watch Blade Runner (I know it's 2019, doesn't matter) to get a better picture.
Those who dislike the concept of RNG Engineering, what would you propose as a replacement?
- Thread starter Kicks
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Definitely picture 2, but the 3300 equivalent of it. Add some steampunk elements and watch Blade Runner (I know it's 2019, doesn't matter) to get a better picture.
Pfew, threads gets very long very fast nowadays 
...
Not read everything so forgive me if this idea has already been mentioned.
What about an initial RNG with multiple guaranteed, but still random improvements:
Going from a base module to an upgrade is as Frontier has shown in the last stream. So no change over there.
But after the initial upgrade, there's an option to improve the current one for less of the costs compared to a full reroll while still keeping the values withing the ranges allowed by the initial recipe.
These improvements will still be random, but the lowest value will be limited to the current value.
Improvements can be bought as many times as the player wants until all stats are at the maximum value allowed by the original recipe.
Maybe some safety system should make sure the reroll won't result in no change at all, so there's always some stat getting a little bit better.
This will NOT improve a module to a higher grade though. That would require a full reroll with the costs for that grade.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Maybe they've already implemented something like this.
And do anyone actually know what's the difference between grades? just better values or more recipies?
Edit: just noticed I've not covered the random special effect. To be honest, I've no good idea what to do with that. Personally I think these special effects should be part of the recipe, not some random fizzle magic.
...Not read everything so forgive me if this idea has already been mentioned.
What about an initial RNG with multiple guaranteed, but still random improvements:
Going from a base module to an upgrade is as Frontier has shown in the last stream. So no change over there.
But after the initial upgrade, there's an option to improve the current one for less of the costs compared to a full reroll while still keeping the values withing the ranges allowed by the initial recipe.
These improvements will still be random, but the lowest value will be limited to the current value.
Improvements can be bought as many times as the player wants until all stats are at the maximum value allowed by the original recipe.
Maybe some safety system should make sure the reroll won't result in no change at all, so there's always some stat getting a little bit better.
This will NOT improve a module to a higher grade though. That would require a full reroll with the costs for that grade.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Maybe they've already implemented something like this.
And do anyone actually know what's the difference between grades? just better values or more recipies?
Edit: just noticed I've not covered the random special effect. To be honest, I've no good idea what to do with that. Personally I think these special effects should be part of the recipe, not some random fizzle magic.
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If the name of that engineer is 'Kaylee' or looks anything close to the real actress.. take a guess
Polling despite min/maxers throwing everything at their disposal is still 51.5% against 49.5%. I would bet that if we would count people not visiting forums, that number most likely would be 70% against 30%.
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I think everyone should play in an identical sidewinder!
Do I win five pounds?
This is more like you're going to a dealership and every time you buy a car you get something of the same make but one might be much faster, one might carry much more, but you're buying a lot of these, taking hours of work to just get the fast car you want.
Not exactly. Engineers won't cover ground for all your needs - base modules are still for that. Their modules are there to give you edge - it being random you should be able to figure how to optimise around what you got, not try to plan before you get something. If you tried it as source just for better modules, then you don't get their role at all and thank god they are locked behind several doors.
Have you looked at those screen shots of engineers bases they look more like the first picture than second picture.
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You know, I'll be honest. I've been scratching my head trying to figure out what everyone's problem with RNG being introduced into the engineers system because I honestly don't know how it can be controversial.
And then I realized that I hadn't defined to myself why I don't know how it could be controversial. My brain finally kicked in and told me that it can't be controversial because the game is already full of RNG, so if the engineers mechanic has RNG in it it's simply keeping pace with the rest of the game.
Are you a bounty hunter? The number and quality of bounties you can collect is highly dependent on RNG. No debate there.
If you're an Explorer, whatever you're looking for while exploring and your ability to find it is highly dependent on RNG, because you don't know if you'll find it until you jump in and given the wide range of possibilities in the PG of Elite you can say that anything you're looking for is highly unlikely to be around this type of star or that type of star, but you can never absolutely rule out the possibility. So while you can mitigate the RNG, you can't eliminate the RNG entirely.
Trading is full of RNG since much of how the background simulation determines pricing and availability is completely obscured. If you don't know how the numbers are being generated, they are as good as random from your perspective.
Missions are pure RNG. And this is blatantly demonstrable by the controversy surrounding switching play modes to pull up different missions. If it weren't RNG, there would be no controversy because people wouldn't need to switch.
P2P servers is RNG, and it's the most evil form of RNG I've seen in gaming.
Etc....
The whole game has plenty of RNG everywhere you look. There is no reason to get upset about it now. You should've cried about every other part of the game involving RNG years ago.
And then I realized that I hadn't defined to myself why I don't know how it could be controversial. My brain finally kicked in and told me that it can't be controversial because the game is already full of RNG, so if the engineers mechanic has RNG in it it's simply keeping pace with the rest of the game.
Are you a bounty hunter? The number and quality of bounties you can collect is highly dependent on RNG. No debate there.
If you're an Explorer, whatever you're looking for while exploring and your ability to find it is highly dependent on RNG, because you don't know if you'll find it until you jump in and given the wide range of possibilities in the PG of Elite you can say that anything you're looking for is highly unlikely to be around this type of star or that type of star, but you can never absolutely rule out the possibility. So while you can mitigate the RNG, you can't eliminate the RNG entirely.
Trading is full of RNG since much of how the background simulation determines pricing and availability is completely obscured. If you don't know how the numbers are being generated, they are as good as random from your perspective.
Missions are pure RNG. And this is blatantly demonstrable by the controversy surrounding switching play modes to pull up different missions. If it weren't RNG, there would be no controversy because people wouldn't need to switch.
P2P servers is RNG, and it's the most evil form of RNG I've seen in gaming.
Etc....
The whole game has plenty of RNG everywhere you look. There is no reason to get upset about it now. You should've cried about every other part of the game involving RNG years ago.
Lots of interesting responses! I'd hoped that the thread wouldn't devolve in to a frank discussion of real-world fault tolerances, but hey, what can you do?
A couple of things:
Completely agree. If my engineer looked and acted like that, I'd crawl through a barrel of glass just to stick matches in her snot-tissues. Wait, what were we talking about again?
Maybe so, who knows. To make comparisons at this juncture is asinine, and Tinman neatly pulled apart that one. Remember guys, any hype-train can end like this:
Whoops, St. Pancras, London - Remembers!
I applaud the both of you on your candid dialogue. Neither of your companies have any place in a computer-game, but I did enjoy your to-and-fro, and I'm pretty sure *both* of your customer-bases are happy with the work that you do!
If RNG was not going to play a part, I suppose the sliders idea was pretty good. It removes cash-gating (there's a lot of players with a LOT of cash, a potentially bad-gating-mechanic IMHO - and probably why Frontier wanted a different route). I also loved the idea of the quality of the materials that the player received being a part of the final equation.
Also can we just get along?
o7
A couple of things:
Completely agree. If my engineer looked and acted like that, I'd crawl through a barrel of glass just to stick matches in her snot-tissues. Wait, what were we talking about again?
Maybe so, who knows. To make comparisons at this juncture is asinine, and Tinman neatly pulled apart that one. Remember guys, any hype-train can end like this:
Whoops, St. Pancras, London - Remembers!
I applaud the both of you on your candid dialogue. Neither of your companies have any place in a computer-game, but I did enjoy your to-and-fro, and I'm pretty sure *both* of your customer-bases are happy with the work that you do!
If RNG was not going to play a part, I suppose the sliders idea was pretty good. It removes cash-gating (there's a lot of players with a LOT of cash, a potentially bad-gating-mechanic IMHO - and probably why Frontier wanted a different route). I also loved the idea of the quality of the materials that the player received being a part of the final equation.
Also can we just get along?
o7
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I'd love for an FD staffmember to post in here, "Because it's obvious that The Engineers has irreconcilably divided the community, we now realise we have made a terrible error of judgement. The Engineers will now be completely reworked with a whole new, top-secret crafting system. Release date for the new, fully revised, Horizons 2.1 is now estimated to be mid December. Thank you all for helping us to realise how important this update is to the community."
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This is completely true but at the same time hasn't this been a major point of criticism of the game so far? I think people are irritated with RNG crafting because the dependence on RNG in every other area of the game has made the galaxy feel rather lifeless and samey. There was hope that the 2.1 update would make the gameworld more dynamic and varied, which makes the doubling down on randomized elements all the more disheartening.
Not at all. Look at the inside and concept art.
It is a point of criticism, but it's a point that never seems to stick in the conversation. People don't complain about it being RNG-oriented, they complain that it's merely too inconsistent. There were no suggestions to make any of these things perfectly static, which is what people want to happen with engineering.
What can be changed?
Allow us to tell the engineer to "focus" on 1 attribute
for being tier 2, 2 attributes at tier 4 and 2 attributes and a secondary attribute at tier 5.
Those attributes can be any of the main stats as well as a specialty.
The engineer then concentrates his efforts in these areas,
affecting the "roll results".
Allow us to tell the engineer to "focus" on 1 attribute
for being tier 2, 2 attributes at tier 4 and 2 attributes and a secondary attribute at tier 5.
Those attributes can be any of the main stats as well as a specialty.
The engineer then concentrates his efforts in these areas,
affecting the "roll results".
Can't rep you again but just brilliant. Made me laugh anyway.
It doesn't have to make sense, it's a game.
I would prefer no RNG, but I can deal with a little as long as it isn't a huge factor. But from what I saw for the integrity (health) upgrade things could vary by as much as 60%(40% to 100% buff range)!!
This is way to much and if they think it should be possible to double a stat (not sure if that is a good idea, have to wait and see) then the range should actually be small like you propose such as 10% variation.
To use your own example I am pretty sure that most manufacturers have quality control ranges much smaller than 60%
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While I agree with you games don't have to and in some cases shouldn't make real world sense, but when they go against real world logic it should be to improve gameplay so it is more fun, which in my opinion RNG when trying to get a weapon doesn't do for me. If it did I'd play division or destiny.
I am one of those who actually likes the idea of a *constrained* RNG based customization system. That said, I do see ways in which the system I saw on Tuesday night can be improved (assuming they haven't already implemented them).
-As your reputation with an engineer improves, then the amount of variability on lower class upgrades should be reduced (so a pilot with a level 5 reputation should get an almost guaranteed levels of upgraded stats for class 1upgrades).
-As an engineer does repeated upgrades of a certain class for you, then the variability should reduce. So, if your pilot has been getting numerous class 3 beam weapon upgrades from this engineer, then the next one he does for you should be less prone to variability.
-the quality of the goods used in the upgrade should impact variability. So if I bring an engineer a newly bought beam laser, & commodities obtained mostly from missions and/or stock markets, then that should be a less variable upgrade than a 2 month old beam laser and commodities I got from planetary/space exploration.
-A specific build (like a class 3 extended range beam weapon) should become a TEMPLATE that the engineer can build f9r you the same way, each & every time.....but only if you choose to save it. However, if you decide to get a new class 3 extended range beam laser blueprint recipe, then the old template is lost.
- with the weapons, there should be a button to select "no special ability". This upgrade would be cheaper, but would never give you a special effect. There should also be a button where you can choose to *aim* for a special ability. This would cost more, but give you a significantly improved chance of a special ability for your weapon upgrade.
I feel confident that, even if just the first 4 ideas got in, then even those currently opposed to the RNG approach might be OK with it.
-As your reputation with an engineer improves, then the amount of variability on lower class upgrades should be reduced (so a pilot with a level 5 reputation should get an almost guaranteed levels of upgraded stats for class 1upgrades).
-As an engineer does repeated upgrades of a certain class for you, then the variability should reduce. So, if your pilot has been getting numerous class 3 beam weapon upgrades from this engineer, then the next one he does for you should be less prone to variability.
-the quality of the goods used in the upgrade should impact variability. So if I bring an engineer a newly bought beam laser, & commodities obtained mostly from missions and/or stock markets, then that should be a less variable upgrade than a 2 month old beam laser and commodities I got from planetary/space exploration.
-A specific build (like a class 3 extended range beam weapon) should become a TEMPLATE that the engineer can build f9r you the same way, each & every time.....but only if you choose to save it. However, if you decide to get a new class 3 extended range beam laser blueprint recipe, then the old template is lost.
- with the weapons, there should be a button to select "no special ability". This upgrade would be cheaper, but would never give you a special effect. There should also be a button where you can choose to *aim* for a special ability. This would cost more, but give you a significantly improved chance of a special ability for your weapon upgrade.
I feel confident that, even if just the first 4 ideas got in, then even those currently opposed to the RNG approach might be OK with it
.