Vive vs Rift: Help me decide what to buy!

[popuptoaster]

Personally I'm not interested in standing up and walking around I just want the immersion for flying and driving type games so I'm waiting for a Rift due to it's extra comfort levels and simpler and more compact set up. As far as I can see the option is always there to add room scale features with the controllers come out but as it already has a slightly better sitting experience and that's what I'm after it's the one i chose.

i think there will be "brand wars" and fans of both but I doubt anyone will be unhappy with whichever one they chose.

 

[grammatonfeather]

Are you running it through Steam or desktop? There has been reports of problems when running through Steam and SteamVR running stuff in the background thinking it's a 2D game wanting to be run in the VR Theatre mode.

Here, go to the last post in this thread and check it out if you are running through Steam.. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=247969

I'm running it through desktop although the original download was via steam. The theater mode tickbox is unticked and greyed out for Elite.

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Personally I'm not interested in standing up and walking around I just want the immersion for flying and driving type games so I'm waiting for a Rift due to it's extra comfort levels and simpler and more compact set up. As far as I can see the option is always there to add room scale features with the controllers come out but as it already has a slightly better sitting experience and that's what I'm after it's the one i chose.

i think there will be "brand wars" and fans of both but I doubt anyone will be unhappy with whichever one they chose.

For Elite D I agree. I don't really get the point of walking around unless the game expands to allow walking outside of ship.

However... the standing/walking games on Vive are absolutely mind-blowing.

Vive isn't uncomfortable. That's amateur journalist nonsense (weak-necked hipsters). I have the DK2 and Vive. Vive is slightly heavier especially at the front but there is nothing uncomfortable about it.

Setup with CV1 certainly simpler but really all I had to do with Vive was drill 4 holes in 2 walls and mount the wall clips. The laser boxes attach very easily and can be angled.

 

[bitstorm]

For Elite D I agree. I don't really get the point of walking around unless the game expands to allow walking outside of ship.

However... the standing/walking games on Vive are absolutely mind-blowing.

Gotta agree with that. VR is really difficult to explain to folk in any way where they understand, it really just has to be experienced. If you're saying you're not interested in standing play, well all I'll say is.... just try it first.

I've only had the Vive since Friday but it seems totally apparent that the real promise of VR is the ability to interact with your environment. None of the truely incredible demos I've seen so far are sat down, why is that? My view is that it's because by sitting you lose that ability to freely interact.

Aye cockpit games and they will be totally cool, but as I say where VR seems to really shine is when you're not confined and can just move around freely.

 

[jabokai]

Gotta agree with that. VR is really difficult to explain to folk in any way where they understand, it really just has to be experienced. If you're saying you're not interested in standing play, well all I'll say is.... just try it first.

I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure it will be a flash in the pan *FOR ME* (just felt the need to stress that before I got jumped on! ). Something I would do for the novelty, or for a demo, I really can't imagine playing games for hours standing up and waggling my arms about. Sort of like the Wii - it was great fun, but not something you spent hours upon hours in, once the novelty had worn off.

I will definitely buy the Touch controllers when they come out, for the hell of it, but I don't see me using them anywhere near as much as mouse/KB, steering wheel, or HOTAS.

 

[bitstorm]

I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure it will be a flash in the pan *FOR ME* (just felt the need to stress that before I got jumped on! ). Something I would do for the novelty, or for a demo, I really can't imagine playing games for hours standing up and waggling my arms about. Sort of like the Wii - it was great fun, but not something you spent hours upon hours in, once the novelty had worn off.

I will definitely buy the Touch controllers when they come out, for the hell of it, but I don't see me using them anywhere near as much as mouse/KB, steering wheel, or HOTAS.

Who knows how it's gonna pan out, so many unknowns. My feeling is it's not like the Wii, untimately this delivers on the promise.

Just on interaction and the controllers. I mean the cubicle demo alone, it's ok as demos go but I was literally lying on the floor looking over the edge. This is nothing to do with controllers per se, it's more interacting with your environment, touch style controllers just enable that sort of interaction. Having them essentially gives you hands, realtime ones that magically "wire" themselves into your brain.

[video=youtube;sxwn1w7MJvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk[/video]

Or Space Pirate Trainer where I'm shooting twin laser pistols at enemies that fire back, I literally involuntarily dodged the first shots not realising, it's you engaging with what you see. SPT is not a game you'll play for "hours upon hours" it was 20 minutes wave shooter style adrenaline fuelled action, this sort of shooting game never happens while sat in a chair.

As I say from my limited view so far, it's these sorts of games which are the most "visceral" and the most engaging, the most intense, this is the only way I can describe it. With VR it seems there's a part of your brain that thinks it's real, not saying engaging that part of the brain isn't possible while sat down but when stood and interacting it's so much easier to get "there"

But yeah maybe it's like the early days of cinema where everyone ran in fear at the witchcraft!! It's really hard to say at this point if how real it all feels at this point will subside as it becomes more normal. I will say I don't think I was ever this engaged with Wii though, and I was the guy who took the Wii to work to demo to everyone!

 

[Full_Ninja]

WEllif you;ve spent all that money on a Vive, SPT is only a tenner. =p

Like most of the stuff out there now, it's not got much in the way of depth. It's essentially just a wave shooter, the sort of thing you'll play for ~20 minutes each time you stick it on, but like now nearly a hour later I'm sat on the couch still feeling the after effects of it!

It's quick games but the intensity/adrenaline is such that that's fine, you're exhausted (and grinning like an idiot) afterwards anyway. Not a game to play before bed.

The adrenaline rush was something I over looked when I was imaging what the VIVE would be like. Games like SPT tap into something I haven't felt since I was a youth. You actually get a euphoric rush from playing because of how physical it is. It's like a miny runners high.

 

[Full_Ninja]

I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure it will be a flash in the pan *FOR ME* (just felt the need to stress that before I got jumped on! ). Something I would do for the novelty, or for a demo, I really can't imagine playing games for hours standing up and waggling my arms about. Sort of like the Wii - it was great fun, but not something you spent hours upon hours in, once the novelty had worn off.

I will definitely buy the Touch controllers when they come out, for the hell of it, but I don't see me using them anywhere near as much as mouse/KB, steering wheel, or HOTAS.

I use to think the same thing untill I tried Budget Cuts. Think of it this way you could sit a play a espionage videogame or you could actually go to an office building and perform espionage. It's not like the wii at all. The wii controlls did not require you to actually perform the actual motion but instead just a flick of your rist. With the VIVE controllers you actually have to perform the full motion with 1:1 perssicion.

If you just waggle your arms in Bugget Cuts you will die. If you just waggle your arms in SPT instead of actually holding a gun up look down the sites and aimming just like you would with a real gun then you will die. Not to mention how you really use your body to contorl yourself. You can pull off maneuvers that just arn't possiable with a game pad.

One of my friends after playing SPT commented on how that was most in control he had ever felt in a game. He said the moves hes was performing would require so many buttons on a game pad and would take a long time to master. He could not beleive he was able to drop to two knees while leaning back to duck under some laser fire while returning fire aiming at two seperate targets with each hand. All of that with just two buttons.

 

[vic]

The problem with the Vive walking around benefit is the cables.
I have tried the VIVE and my conclusion is that I don't see me ever playing in that mode for very long. Setup is Tedious and you NEED a second person watching over you that you don't trip over the cables. There is NO way around this problem today! - and this is a show-stopper! Also, I don't see how I would want to spend hours standing after hard day at work!
I must say though it is great when you do have a chaperone and don't might standing for a while.

 

[bitstorm]

The problem with the Vive walking around benefit is the cables.
I have tried the VIVE and my conclusion is that I don't see me ever playing in that mode for very long. Setup is Tedious and you NEED a second person watching over you that you don't trip over the cables. There is NO way around this problem today! - and this is a show-stopper!

Show-stopper?? No idea how I've managed then, without any sort of chaperone whatsoever.

I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration in all honesty. Yes the cable exists, at most you feel it brush against your leg now and again. I can honestly say I've not even come close to tripping or anything even like that. It's been a total non-issue.

The only actual issue with the cable is that over time it twists and you have to unravel it. But I think most would see that as a minor annoyance.

The other issue is the potential for swinging a controller into your telly! I am never concerned about the cable, I am often concerned about hitting the telly. Genuinely thinking about some sort of screen protector! Or maybe reconfigure the marked chaperone space to it won;t let me go anywhere near the thing.

On the setup being tedious, ok but setup is something you do once. I mean similarly you could also say a multimonitor PC with HOTAS is more tedious than a PS4 because there's more cables, but do people seriously ever factor that into a buying decision?

IF you are moving it all around often, like regularly taking it round to friend's houses then yes there will be some level of setup involved. Ultimately though the two lighthouses just plug into the wall, that's really it, they require no other connection, it's really not that bad. (assuming you have plug sockets)

The real issue with the lighthouses is they need to be up high, ideally on opposing sides of your playspace, if you haven't got high bookshelves or similar to stand them on or clip them to then you're looking at some other solution.

On the lighthouses I believe I've read they're open and schematics have been released. In that company can build them. If they do and they're cheap, maybe just buying a few extra will be an option if you're the type to carry your VR round with you.

 

[Lestenio]

The problem with the Vive walking around benefit is the cables.
I have tried the VIVE and my conclusion is that I don't see me ever playing in that mode for very long. Setup is Tedious and you NEED a second person watching over you that you don't trip over the cables. There is NO way around this problem today! - and this is a show-stopper! Also, I don't see how I would want to spend hours standing after hard day at work!
I must say though it is great when you do have a chaperone and don't might standing for a while.

I am going with Bitstorm on this one. Set up was easy. A couple of leads and no need to refer to the instructions at any point. Lots of cable length mind, but not difficult. Also never had any issue with jumping around and getting tangled with the headset cable. Worst I have done so far is jabbed the tv with a controller a few times. Going to have to watch that one

 

[Hell Razor5543]

If anybody lives near to Reading, Berkshire (United Kingdom), the PC World at the Reading Gate Retail Park is one of three branches to have set up a Vive experience room. Might be worth a visit.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I am sold on full room vr is the long term future however....... I really hope it is never needed for elite. My bloody gaming chair is a right health and safety nightmare to get in and out of (a playseat airforce with modified arms for hotas and lifted up due to casters and also a steering wheel on it)

It's hard enough without my hmd on and taking my time over it. No way I will be jumping in and out of that thing in vr quickly.

 

[Soda Popinski]

I am sold on full room vr is the long term future however....... I really hope it is never needed for elite. My bloody gaming chair is a right health and safety nightmare to get in and out of (a playseat airforce with modified arms for hotas and lifted up due to casters and also a steering wheel on it)

It's hard enough without my hmd on and taking my time over it. No way I will be jumping in and out of that thing in vr quickly.

We should have "wheelchair" movement as an option. It's what they use in the Walking Dead VR game.


Anyway, my Rift is due to arrive today. I'll have a better idea of Rift vs. Vive at that point. I've already given up on the Vive in Elite, and have gone back to the DK2 for smoothness and I can't run the Vive in my office due to giant mirror doors for the closet. I currently have the Vive setup in the next room with cables going through the walls (built in outlet). My plan is Vive for Room Scale Rift for cockpit. My original plan was keep which one I like best, and sell the other one, but I like both way too much.

 

[cygnusa]

I found the Vive to be extremely lightweight. It felt lighter than I expected it to be. Even less so once worn. HMD weight should essentially be a non-issue between both manufacturers. If one's neck hurts from playing VR, its probably not the weight, but rather one using the neck FAR more over a few hours period gaming in VR than one normally does in normal day to day things. Its called exercise We gamers typically don't much of that unfortunately LOL. The only other time my neck hurts is when I'm on vacation in the Carribbean.. but its from gawking at women at the beach... or whiplash from the resultant SLAP to the back of my head as my wife brings me back to my senses.

Room scale is a blast, though I know I'll also play games seated such as Elite probably for a larger percentage of my gaming time. The option to be able to do both is nice. Rift will also get room scale, we can bet that will happen this year. So .. in the end of it all... it boils down to personal preference. I have absolutely nothing against the Rift myself. If a Rift was available sooner, I'd have gotten one. But in my case the Vive shipped to me far faster. I'd have to wait another 2-3 months for a Rift.

My key personal issue with the Rift has nothing to do with the device. It has to do the Facebook connection, how Oculus handled their roll-out. Some of the quirky less professional behaviors in the marketplace. But then again. This VR stuff is all new. Its highly competitive. The technology is yet to be fully proven and adopted on a seriously wide-scale. Strife will occur. "Fanboys" will take their corners. It'll be an Apple vs PC debate all over again. Lots of loud noise, but no clear winner as 'to each their own'. At the core, my gripe is the exclusiveness issue. I like open platforms. Thats why I own an Android phone and not an Apple. Same concept. But that doesn't mean one is better or more right than the other.

To me, I hope both Rift and Vive succeed immensely in the marketplace. It will in the end benefit the consumer. So rather than crush the 'opposition', lets foster support overall for the platform. Exclusivity in the end will hurt Oculus, but probably not to a large degree. People will figure out how to run content (as they already have) on competing devices. The lines will become more blurred. As more content is available, exclusive content becomes more trivial. IBM lost the hardware exclusivity war with microchannel years ago. Apple lost with their proprietary hardware. Thats why they are running on Intel/PC guts these days. Development costs are lower. Adoption is higher. Cost/benefit was just better. The consumer is happier.

Now we just need to wait for substantive content for VR. Elite Dangerous does it now. But pretty much most anything I see out there are demos, short content, proof of concept creations. Way back I bought one of the original 3D gaming accelerator cards... such as the Voodoo series if some may recall. At release less than a handful of games actually supported it. FAR fewer than today's VR titles by comparison. I'm expecting amazing things, and I suspect from this year on.. gaming isn't going to be the same. The TV when it hit the market was revolutionary and changed media and communications in ways that could not have been predicted. We're going to see the same with VR. This is awesome, and we get to witness its emergence.

So when it comes to Rift vs Vive vs whatever. Analyze the product. Get what best fits for your personal needs. Support your developers by buying the content they produce that you like. Watch the market bloom into gaming awesomeness.


P.S. I am playing Elite in the Vive now. Performance is just fine. No major issues for me. Yes, the graphic glitch is noticable, but if you haven't tried the game in VR yet.. frankly even in the Vive it kicks behind bigtime. The immersion is pure awesome. Once the aliasing/mipmap fix is in, things will likely be sorted out. It isn't a hardware issue. Its how the software is implemented for the hardware. VR is new. Devs are learning the nuances and how best to optimize.

 

[cygnusa]

I use to think the same thing untill I tried Budget Cuts. Think of it this way you could sit a play a espionage videogame or you could actually go to an office building and perform espionage. It's not like the wii at all. The wii controlls did not require you to actually perform the actual motion but instead just a flick of your rist. With the VIVE controllers you actually have to perform the full motion with 1:1 perssicion.

If you just waggle your arms in Bugget Cuts you will die. If you just waggle your arms in SPT instead of actually holding a gun up look down the sites and aimming just like you would with a real gun then you will die. Not to mention how you really use your body to contorl yourself. You can pull off maneuvers that just arn't possiable with a game pad.

One of my friends after playing SPT commented on how that was most in control he had ever felt in a game. He said the moves hes was performing would require so many buttons on a game pad and would take a long time to master. He could not beleive he was able to drop to two knees while leaning back to duck under some laser fire while returning fire aiming at two seperate targets with each hand. All of that with just two buttons.

Yes, room scale VR is nothing like Wii. Its an entirely different experience.

Sometimes I like a good relaxing sit-down game. Other times its fun to do something far more physically interactive.

VR is amazing. I can sit down to a session of Elite with HOTAS controllers in hand and actually feel like I'm at the controls of a massive spaceship. Later the same evening I can stand up, wield a sword and shield, and go toe to toe against a group of skeleton warriors, blocking strikes, counter striking, jabbing, shooting arrows with actual physical movements.. all with very convincing haptic feedback on the controllers. I can later cook a disgusting sandwich and hand it to a robot, play tron-like 3D pong, or draw a silly happy birthday picture in a 3D space for the wife with a subscript (look behind you!), to have her turn around and see something not so family friendly but hilarious in the same 3D message.

This is crazy cool.

 

[bitstorm]

Now we just need to wait for substantive content for VR. Elite Dangerous does it now. But pretty much most anything I see out there are demos, short content, proof of concept creations. Way back I bought one of the original 3D gaming accelerator cards... such as the Voodoo series if some may recall. At release less than a handful of games actually supported it. FAR fewer than today's VR titles by comparison. I'm expecting amazing things, and I suspect from this year on.. gaming isn't going to be the same.

Aye it's totally reminding me of when I got my Riva TNT. =p

That point when you first saw 3d accelerated graphics rendered on a dedicated card. I think it was all about Quake back then, this was the card seller for a lot of folk.

Even some of these VR games have that old school feel.

Like with ED on VR it's having to push soo many pixels and they're so close to your eyes that the resolution's inevitably taken a step back. I'm not sure in real terms what the "effective" resolution would be but it's like being sat 10 inches from your 1080p TV, or going back a few generations. =p Of course you see the pixels, especially with bright colours set against black.

Also with ED, there's the toast rack style aliasing, popping pixel stars, and to a degree the cockpit (well some of them) have lots of flat planes. (not sure they were necessarily built with full 3d in mind =p)

Voodoo/TNT days!

 

[Soda Popinski]

Aye it's totally reminding me of when I got my Riva TNT. =p

So late getting in the game with your Riva TNTs and 3DFX Voodoo cards. I had the Diamond Edge 3D, with NVidia's first 3D chip, the NV1. That baby use revolutionary quadratic texture mapping, which is sure to supplant triangle-polygon based geometry anytime now. Yep, there were a whole 6 games that supported that chipset, half of them Sega Saturn ports...


Anyway, talking about aliasing issues, I've heard some folks are getting better image quality by lowering the graphics settings, while increasing SS? Anyone know how well this works in Elite? I'm running a 970 on a DK2, and getting a hiccup once in a while when landing on planets. I'm a bit worried with the CV1 due to the higher fill-rate requirements (25% more resolution at a higher framerate).

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I'll try scaling the game world down by 50 or 25% and see how it feels, or I'll fiddle with the SteamVR character movement scripts to achieve the same result so you move on a 2 or 4:1 basis ('ll write a test scene in Unity to do so later this week).

Sounds interesting, please let me know how it went - especially the 2:1 movement script.

Could feel just about right. If I look at an object in my room it looks much further away in RL compared to VR. "The Blue" is a very good example for this.

Might also be a setup issue on my end. The Avatar in ED always felt a little undersized in the DK2, in the Vive it's the size of a four year old. In the DK2 I could adjust it by changing the software IPD in the runtime, which just changed stereoscopic rendering separation for obvious reasons.

However changing the IPD using the on the Vive doesn't seem to do anything to the scale, probably because it just changes the physical separation of the lenses without changing stereoscopic rendering separation (?).

____

On the original question: After a week of owning one, I don't regret having opted for a Vive.

- Setting it up was as easy as putting four nails into my walls and plugging a few things, then following instructions. The whole process took me about 45 minutes and I wont need to do it again until the next gen is out.
- Tracking is perfect, regardless of sitting down or using room-scale.
- Comparing it to 2000 hours in the DK2, image quality is way better but not as good as I expected it to be. However this is a problem exclusive to ED.
- The front camera and chaperone are largely unnecessary. Tried them for four days and found I don't need them. The camera is completely disabled now and I've only left the chaperone on in the dev setting (only show ground boundaries when close to a wall) to investigate the discrepancies mentioned above.
- The cable isn't an issue when using room scale. I usually play barefooted, feel where it is and naturally avoid getting tangled up without being conscious about it.
- I can type, eat, drink and smoke just as I do without wearing it and contribute that to extensive (>5 hours) training in the DK2.
- The Avatars scale in ED is completely off, might be an issue on my end.


Last but not least, there are no proper games for either device. Oculus has the better looking ones, but they're designed for the Xbox controller/third person. Both properties diminish motion sickness due to removing the feeling of presence, which actually is the point of VR.

The Vive doesn't fare any better. Tons of experiences/demos looking like Lego or Teletubbies, Arkanoid clones and brainless rail shooters.

 

[cygnusa]

So late getting in the game with your Riva TNTs and 3DFX Voodoo cards. I had the Diamond Edge 3D, with NVidia's first 3D chip, the NV1. That baby use revolutionary quadratic texture mapping, which is sure to supplant triangle-polygon based geometry anytime now. Yep, there were a whole 6 games that supported that chipset, half of them Sega Saturn ports...


Anyway, talking about aliasing issues, I've heard some folks are getting better image quality by lowering the graphics settings, while increasing SS? Anyone know how well this works in Elite? I'm running a 970 on a DK2, and getting a hiccup once in a while when landing on planets. I'm a bit worried with the CV1 due to the higher fill-rate requirements (25% more resolution at a higher framerate).

I'm running a 970 with a Vive at VR High supersampling 1.0x. Game set to windows mode with res at 1920x1080. I still find it very playable and runs smooth everywhere... but it obviously needs to be worked on. I haven't tried upping supersampling yet. I may play with that tonight, see if it actually does anything. I may be able to manage 1.5x, but I suspect 2.0x will drag things down bad. 2.0x might be doable with a GTX 1080... bah, can't be spending that much at this point. Just got the Vive. ;P Just hoping the game fixes on the way resolve things.

Even with the Vive visual quirks, I can't see myself wanting to go back to a monitor after this. This game is wonderful in VR. My wife use to laugh at my spaceship game... she didn't like gaming much in general. After the Vive she wants to do stuff. I let autodocking bring my Anaconda into a station while she wore the Vive. The whole time she was grabbing onto my arm for dear life but in awe. Once docked she was like "Show me more! Show me more!". I may have brought her over to the dark side LOL.

 

[Soda Popinski]

The Vive doesn't fare any better. Tons of experiences/demos looking like Lego or Teletubbies, Arkanoid clones and brainless rail shooters.

Fantastic Contraption looks stupid, but it's really a lot of fun and very challenging. Have you given that one a chance? You probably have it bundled with the Vive. Call of the Starseed: The Gallery is a relatively polished looking game, but is fairly short (episode 1). That was both a great experience and a decent puzzle game. Vanishing Realms has been my friends' favorite so far, as we've all played through it and are once more waiting for the next chapter.

My Rift just arrived back at home, so I'll be giving that a try. I'm looking forward to Chronos and a better Elite: Dangerous experience.