I'm concerned – the direction of the game.

[JeffRyan]

This is the same argument that jabokai used. I find it baffling that knowledge of something which should be outside the game (i.e., PC vs NPC) can make you feel more immersed. To me it is the exact opposite: since in-game the PC vs NPC distinction makes no sense, then being told that status breaks the immersion.

But, to each his own, and all that. Whilst your justification is baffling to me, I acknowledge your right to have that perspective and to voice it.

Thanks! The only analogy I can think of is like when I had a test once for hepatitis. When I had the test, not knowing was seriously worse than 'yes' or 'no'. I know that because the test came back positive. And I was treated for months before it became apparent it was a false positive. (Never had hep in the end).

But knowing, even the bad result was much more calming to me (accept, move on) than the continous guessing I had as I waited for my results.

And although this issue is nowhere near as serious, it's that same mental itch.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I think that, if the people play in multiplayer mode with as much pleasure that they participate in the forums of ED, then the PVP mode will be well above all other modes.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

So, do you really want immersion as you claim - blurring the lines between human and NPC for the sake of a "believable" galaxy - or do you just want to use it for game purposes?

As much as I don't empathise with it, I can understand the pure view of those who never really want to know who is human and who is AI. Just using it as another game device "I'm going to pretend to be an NPC" isn't really anything to do with immersion though - it's just gaming the system.

Yay, found something we agree on!

FWIW, I feel a bit guilty even in the current alpha when I target an NPC in 'Endless War', because I know I am 'cheating' in that I know it is an NPC (and that it is not very good either). Most of the time, of course, I don;t have a choice because there are no PCs in there to target instead. But it still feels wrong to me.

 

[jabokai]

This is the same argument that jabokai used. I find it baffling that knowledge of something which should be outside the game (i.e., PC vs NPC) can make you feel more immersed. To me it is the exact opposite: since in-game the PC vs NPC distinction makes no sense, then being told that status breaks the immersion.

What happens when you figure out someone is human? From comms, from how they fly, from the paint job on their ship? You have a much bigger flashing blue light (to use the hyperbole from earlier in the thread) that someone is human compared to it being a de facto known quantity throughout regular gameplay.

E.g. You watch the film Titanic and you know the ship's going to sink, no surprise, there's no "oh wow" moment, it's just a known part of the film. You watch The Usual Suspects and there's a definite "oh wow" moment as the reveal is done. Big flashing light!

It's hard to describe exactly what I mean...but, in a way, by hiding people you're actually making a bigger deal out of the difference between them and NPCs when the reveal is done.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

In the end the game will throw NPC's left, right and centre at any time. I could be minding my own business mining or exploring and I get set upon by NPC pirates.

To me there is no distinction as to whether you are getting attacked by an NPC or a real player. Your still getting attacked regardless! So whether the radar shows the distinction or not makes no real difference in reality. If you are outgunned what does it matter, the decision is still the same fight or flight ...

With that in mind I don't think we need a distinction between the two, because in reality you are still going to make the same choices. You don't know for sure how good your opponents(s) are going to be, what equipment they have etc. That will be the same for both types of attackers.

Obviously once you have engaged said ships (or got within a certain range, whatever) they will then be flagged up, which is fair enough.

I would prefer the suspense of not knowing whats around the next corner... Makes it more exciting!!! And in the end Elite is based on simply risk vs reward, if you know whether someone you are about to attack is an NPC or real person in advance then some of that risk is taken away, as you might not chose a certain action.

Thats my 2 cents anyway

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

What happens when you figure out someone is human? From comms, from how they fly, from the paint job on their ship? You have a much bigger flashing blue light (to use the hyperbole from earlier in the thread) that someone is human compared to it being a de facto known quantity throughout regular gameplay.

Well, most of the time I will not actually find out, since we will pass like ships in the night, and neither will be the wiser, and neither will care. If we do get to the point where I know, I suspect it will be less of an issue to me because we will be past the 'engagement' threshhold, which is where this is most important. I don't expect to actively 'work out' whether it is a PC or an NPC, but I will undoubtedly get there some time. What happens then will depend on what happens, I guess. If I find myself in a dogfight, I will probably be concentrating on trying to survive or get away, rather than plotting different actions because I know they are a {PC|NPC}. But I'm human too (really) so I suspect that subconsciously if not consciously I will make adjustments because of that, and then probably feel guilty about 'cheating'.

When a pirate does a "stand and deliver", I suspect that my response is likely to be a spur of the moment reaction, not one that is well thought out. But I also suspect that I would tend to react differently to a PC doing it than an NPC (more likely to wave 2 fingers at the NPC). Again, I will feel guilt if I know that I have reacted 'out of game' rather than 'in game'.

 

[Lobstris]

This 'I want to play with people but not know they're people' group I find baffling and their argument for me comes down to why bother playing with people if you don't want to know they're people?'

....

If I know if that person is an AI or a Person I just accept it and move on, if I'm having to guess continously it'll be like an irritating itch. ALL THE TIME.

We've been over this before, but...

I'm not opposed to p2p, but would you really want to play a round of Battlefield with your position constantly revealed? Would you really want to play DayZ, knowing that other survivors can see exactly where you are? Would you really want to play a strategy game, where you could instantly tell where your opponents pieces are through no fog of war? THAT is what the Elite Dangerous Alpha feels like to me right now.

That 'irritating itch' at not knowing AI or player you would feel is one of the reasons that I find most interesting about Elite's proposed multiplayer. If I attack this ship, will it be a docile AI I think I can dispatch with ease, or someone like Snuffler or Avior, who could out fly me and kick my ass back to Lave without breaking a sweat. Adds a heck of a lot of tension to each encounter, and makes the more meaningful, no?

The game's 1-on-1 AI at present doesn't look like it will be able to outfly/outfight any half-competent player. Hence I'd like to play multiplayer to get a range of opponent skills to fill that gap - I still don't need to know whether whoever I'm fighting against is AI or not. [Though it probably would become obvious the moment fancy FA off moves get pulled, or if they have a ruddy great CMDR nametag, or 'My Little Ponies' all over the ship. ]

[As for people saying 'constant scanning' will make the game tedious - wouldn't constant fighting do the same? Wouldn't having everything on a plate the moment you enter an instance also make the game boring? I'd suggest that the current K-warrant scanner range is too short, but...]

Bottom line - I'll be trading. I want to make dangerous high-risk/high-reward runs. I don't want pirates to get a 'free ride' knowing that I'm about, and a player by a bloomin' great hollow triangle on their scanner.

 

[JeffRyan]

I'm not opposed to p2p, but would you really want to play a round of Battlefield with your position constantly revealed? Would you really want to play DayZ, knowing that other survivors can see exactly where you are?

Would you really want to play a multiplayer game which is indistinguishable from a singleplayer game?

 

[Jorlin]

After following this thread from the beginning i can tell you: there will be no consent.

it didn't even help me to decide what i want

i'm totally with JeffRyan and his "irritating itch" argument.
on the other hand i wholehartedly agree with AnnuverScotinExile with the "immersion" aspect...and that i don't want to be hunted for the sheer reason i'm a PC.

but i still don't like the idea of opting in/out

Edit: removed the JeffRyan insult

 

[JeffRyan]

i'm totally with JackRyan and his "irritating itch" argument.

JEFFRyan JEFFRyan... geezus....

 

[Jorlin]

OUCH, soooooooo sorry. correcting.

don't drink and post....

 

[Tonberry]

After following this thread from the beginning i can tell you: there will be no consent

Too true.

Personally, i will just adapt to whatever the game turns out to be because... space...

So long as I can pilot my own ship across a beautiful universe whilst sitting in my living room making "piew piew" noises, then im good.

 

[Lobstris]

Would you really want to play a multiplayer game which is indistinguishable from a singleplayer game?

YES! ABSOLUTELY! A seemless, open-world experience with no distinction between player and AI would be a holy grail gaming moment for me. The distinction only exists because we don't have PCs powerful enough yet to give truly 'human-like' AI in all aspects (and won't for a few centuries yet probably).

You seem to somehow equate single-player as being lesser to multi-player? Surely, in an ideal world, the single- or multi- experience would be identical? I'd rather the game was an 'open-world, dynamic universe simulator' in any game mode.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Would you really want to play a multiplayer game which is indistinguishable from a singleplayer game?

It's not like you won't know .. it's just that it allows players to behave and act naturally in the game until they know.

Mystery - as someone above said

If there are 15 NPC ships around me and an PC aggressor arrives on the scene most likely they will make a beeline straight for me ... it's not a natural response, and like Jakobai's "not knowing stands out", for me "knowing stands out" as it's obvious they want a piece of me.

To me the middle ground proposed by FD solves the issue - the opt in transponder.

• If you opt in, and so does your aggressor, you "see" each other.
• If one of you does not opt in then neither of you "see" each other (until scanned perhaps)

A compromise ... a fair one imo.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Would you really want to play a multiplayer game which is indistinguishable from a singleplayer game?

But there will be some real intelligence behind what some of those ships are doing.

You just have to look a little closer.


This feature may actually encourage more multiplayer interaction in regards to people banding together. Pirates will have wingmen, miners will have scouts, traders will have escorts. It can encourage co-operation and discourage lone wolf gameplay. You won't get many lone wolves hurtling headlong into a bunch of radar blips, because he now has in the back of his mind that there's a chance one or two of those blips may just be something that isn't following a predictable script.

 

[Adam Lusardi]

30 years ago I imagined now its coming true in another 30 years time who will tell

 

[kilvenny]

I plan to play the all group. If I don't know the CMDR who kills me how do I exclude them if I consider their actions to be unacceptable to me?

I quite like the idea of scanning or judging by game play style who the real players are. By the same account scanning defence modules should also be available.

One suggestion would be if you have hard points deployed your CMDR name is automatically revealed and the radar shows you as a CMDR until you dock.

 

[JeffRyan]

YES! ABSOLUTELY!

Then why not play the singleplayer?

 

[Bob_H]

I plan to play the all group. If I don't know the CMDR who kills me how do I exclude them if I consider their actions to be unacceptable to me?

I quite like the idea of scanning or judging by game play style who the real players are. By the same account scanning defence modules should also be available.

One suggestion would be if you have hard points deployed your CMDR name is automatically revealed and the radar shows you as a CMDR until you dock.

Hmmm, possibly a good side effect of not flagging ships as NPC/PC will be the effect of us not needing the ignore list anymore. How can you be griefed if there is no effective way of singling you out for griefing??

 

[Herik]

Ok..we are getting off topic, but riddle me this.

A big famine happens to a planet. Traders scramble to nearby agricultural systems to get food for cheap, pirates scramble around the planets' station to intercept fat merchantmen, steal their cargo and sell it for a nice profit, and bounty hunters gather at the other side of the planet, ready to scramble and pick off pirates and other criminals. Smugglers get ready to jump into system with canisters full of dead slaves to sell at the black market as "mutton" and fortune seekers and ninja salvagers sit in the fringes of the system, ready to scoop in and salvage from the ensuing carnage.

This results in an immersive, FD generated but player enhanced spike of activity with extreme levels of player interaction and content generation.

The first trader that can get to the station will reap the most rewards, and as urgent demand is procedurally met prices go down. All players affect the universe, and all players can profit from the opportunity.

You get into your trusty Panther Clipper, fill the holds with precious fruits, vegetables, meat and wheat and then set off for the nearby system.

Before you HS, you check your fuel levels, set all power to the engine and then...turn right into your cockpit where the cheat panel is and press the DELETE ALL PLAYERS FROM UNIVERSE LOL button.

After a successful HS jump and a brief confrontation with a lowly NPC pirate sporting a magenta laser pen, you dock to the station at hand and sell off your merchandise for extreme profit. Your goods bring the price down for all other players in the universe, diminishing their rewards while your risk is 0.

Do you understand the sheer amount of meta balance problems a mechanic like this brings to the table? Again, its one universe, what you do affects everyone.

If the game was that unstable that a single player in a large trader ship could influence the market by that much I would say the market algorithms are too sensitive.

You're also presuming that NPCs are armed with a "laser pen" and are easy pickings ... you're in a clipper remember - agility is not on your side

Well I'm sure that special little script exploit will not be allowed. Also Liqua's comment...