General / Off-Topic Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership [BREXIT] [VOTE EXIT]

[Marra Morgan]

the idea of nationalistic identity must be lost and a new 'nationalism' based on the union of european nations must be forged.

No member state wants to lose its national identity and this is not necessary to make the EU work. These aren't just federal states, they're sovereign nations with more than 2000 years of history, with vastly different culttures and languages that people aren't in any hurry to discard.

And even when nations do merge to form bigger nations, the previous national identity doesn't melt away. In some cases, it galvanises it to be stronger. Ask the Scots or the Welsh

 

[Surfinjo]

As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Voting yourselves in, or out, means that no one has any skin in the game of whether the EU will stand or fall. At some point, a lot of people will get upset against the EU, and start a movement to leave the EU and they will win.

People haven't come to understand one thing about 'merging' countries into larger entities. People of different state entities will only unite if there is a common enemy, or they have killed enough of one side, or the other, to completely break the will of those that would rise up and fight against the other side.

I was truly hoping that the EU was going to find a new way to unite people, working together for the common good of all...and eventually ignore the old boundaries and historical 'issues'...but it really does seem that to unite a people requires some amount of violence and a unifying struggle against an outside force or a soul crushing, painful, military action.

This is an interesting point really.

The civil war resulted from insistence of the central government to maintain the US union at all costs, against the claims of the confederates that the union was a union of separate states, self governing, each with their own laws, administrations and so on.

The same arguments had been used by the central government in the British Empire for 500 years, which resulted in numerous wars and conflicts in the British Isles and other parts of the Empire. That is now past here. The Empire has disintegrated. Most of Ireland has left and the remaining states of the British Isles are either completely self governing or heading that way. Indeed Scotland seems to be heading for a complete separation with no conflict at all.

It is unlikely there will be any further attempts by any US state to separate from the Union now, given the manner of the paranoia that has been generated there, especially since 1950. But I wonder, if the Confederate revolution had not been attempted in the 19th century, and had emerged now, would the reaction be as violent?

 

[EdzUp]

The EU has a vested interest in maintaining / increasing the size of the EU.

.... if only they would manage to get their payment error proportion down to acceptable levels....

The problem we have with the EU is they add countries that don't have the financial power we have so it gives the impression that were carrying the rest of the EU. Also we seem to be getting flooded with EU migration which is also an issue over here and takes the forefront of every argument.

 

[Leper Messiah]

As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Voting yourselves in, or out, means that no one has any skin in the game of whether the EU will stand or fall. At some point, a lot of people will get upset against the EU, and start a movement to leave the EU and they will win.

People haven't come to understand one thing about 'merging' countries into larger entities. People of different state entities will only unite if there is a common enemy, or they have killed enough of one side, or the other, to completely break the will of those that would rise up and fight against the other side.

I was truly hoping that the EU was going to find a new way to unite people, working together for the common good of all...and eventually ignore the old boundaries and historical 'issues'...but it really does seem that to unite a people requires some amount of violence and a unifying struggle against an outside force or a soul crushing, painful, military action.

Incorrect analogy, this is more like the war of independence. Any American expecting Britain to stay in the EU should have also expected the US to STAY a British colony and be ruled and controlled from afar. To not say that would mean being an utter hypocrite.
NO Country wants to be ruled from afar.

More importantly on the issue of mass immigration and it's effects we should ask the Native Americans and how they would describe the DEVASTATING effect it had on them and their cultures.


Can we have some common sense and stop the loony left liberal hand wringing.

I suffer from mental health issues and over the past ten years things in the UK have got much Much MUCH MUCH MUCH worse for me, I'm expected to live off 60 quid a week, it may seem a lot compared to the poor in developing countries, but I have to PAY so much more for food, for heat, for water for shelter. Yes I'm in a much better situation but it still a struggle and in all likelihood will get MUCH worse. We've had years of austerity in the UK and for what, the deficit hit record highs. The UK is haemorrhageing money out at a ridiculous rate. EVERY road I drive on is in a state of disrepair, delays in getting NHS treatment and don't even talk to me about the mental health cuts. No one in Europe cares about me because I'm British so why the hell should I care about others?

Immigrants are NOT a benefit overall that is an utter and complete lie because it doesn't take into account the full effects of them being in a country. Stats NEVER take into account the NHS or educations costs and I recently read it needs an income of 44k to truly be a benefit to the UK. How many immigrants are on that level? Immigrants in the UK are almost purely a source of cheap labour for the Rich and powerful to exploit, they couldn't give a rats furry crack about the poor, all they want are more profits and they flood the UK with immigrants to drop wage standards. How any socialist cannot see how the rich and powerful are manipulating this situation is beyond me. If the situation doesn't get some common sense then I can see a complete rise in the Far Right and the inevitable conflict that will ensure....then again I truly think that's what the "powers" want. They'll be safe as Europe rips itself up and they'll make money from the Arms industry and the rebuilding process.

I'm seeing nothing but ridiculous lies and scare mongering over the brexit, Cameron even said ISIS would want us to Brexit...is the cretin for real? ISIS can GET into the UK easy with open borders, the LAST thing they want is Britain and possibly more countries controlling borders again. Law abiding citizens don't mind getting passports and visas and going through security checks, the ONLY people who love open borders are criminals, they are probably peeing themselves laughing.

Europe needs the UK FAR FAR more than the UK needs Europe. I just hope people have the balls to vote out and weather the petty political and business backstabbing from Europe.

Sorry for the negative post but this "Utopia" of Europe is in fact a complete "Dystopia" and is heading for disaster IMO.



Oh one more thing IMO Hitler would LOVE the EU, it's more or less what he wanted, the EU just had the brains to do it quietly without obvious conflict.

 

[Parmo]

Central and western Europe live in the longest, wealthiest peace period since the roman empire, and the EU has played an important role to accomplish that.

The most significant reason for this period of peace is the stand-off between America and the Soviet Union. The perceived threat of mutual extinction had a calming effect though it did give rise to proxy wars in other regions of the world: other national peoples being killed instead of Europeans.
NATO is the military muscle underpinning a protected Europe allowing it peace and therefore relative prosperity under a secular democracy political system and a somewhat free capitalist financial system.
The Soviet threat has gone being replaced by the threat of an aggressive Putin of Russia and another with China flexing its muscles in Asia.
The EU has grown in a haphazard and short-sighted manner. Just look at the Greek / German problem, a mixing of oil and water.
The other world problems of global terrorism, mass migrations in short time periods, etc. are beyond the capabilities of the EU's leadership if one can say that the EU has a set of leaders. The EU is becoming weaker, from the inside, by the day but 'it' does not realise this, will not admit to it.
And Europe has never fully taken on the responsibility for it's defence, having relied on the USA and NATO to cover the bases.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
People may wish death away but it comes to us all the same.

 

[Becks]

Incorrect analogy, this is more like the war of independence. Any American expecting Britain to stay in the EU should have also expected the US to STAY a British colony and be ruled and controlled from afar. To not say that would mean being an utter hypocrite.
NO Country wants to be ruled from afar.

More importantly on the issue of mass immigration and it's effects we should ask the Native Americans and how they would describe the DEVASTATING effect it had on them and their cultures.


Can we have some common sense and stop the loony left liberal hand wringing.

I suffer from mental health issues and over the past ten years things in the UK have got much Much MUCH MUCH MUCH worse for me, I'm expected to live off 60 quid a week, it may seem a lot compared to the poor in developing countries, but I have to PAY so much more for food, for heat, for water for shelter. Yes I'm in a much better situation but it still a struggle and in all likelihood will get MUCH worse. We've had years of austerity in the UK and for what, the deficit hit record highs. The UK is haemorrhageing money out at a ridiculous rate. EVERY road I drive on is in a state of disrepair, delays in getting NHS treatment and don't even talk to me about the mental health cuts. No one in Europe cares about me because I'm British so why the hell should I care about others?

Immigrants are NOT a benefit overall that is an utter and complete lie because it doesn't take into account the full effects of them being in a country. Stats NEVER take into account the NHS or educations costs and I recently read it needs an income of 44k to truly be a benefit to the UK. How many immigrants are on that level? Immigrants in the UK are almost purely a source of cheap labour for the Rich and powerful to exploit, they couldn't give a rats furry crack about the poor, all they want are more profits and they flood the UK with immigrants to drop wage standards. How any socialist cannot see how the rich and powerful are manipulating this situation is beyond me. If the situation doesn't get some common sense then I can see a complete rise in the Far Right and the inevitable conflict that will ensure....then again I truly think that's what the "powers" want. They'll be safe as Europe rips itself up and they'll make money from the Arms industry and the rebuilding process.

I'm seeing nothing but ridiculous lies and scare mongering over the brexit, Cameron even said ISIS would want us to Brexit...is the cretin for real? ISIS can GET into the UK easy with open borders, the LAST thing they want is Britain and possibly more countries controlling borders again. Law abiding citizens don't mind getting passports and visas and going through security checks, the ONLY people who love open borders are criminals, they are probably peeing themselves laughing.

Europe needs the UK FAR FAR more than the UK needs Europe. I just hope people have the balls to vote out and weather the petty political and business backstabbing from Europe.

Sorry for the negative post but this "Utopia" of Europe is in fact a complete "Dystopia" and is heading for disaster IMO.



Oh one more thing IMO Hitler would LOVE the EU, it's more or less what he wanted, the EU just had the brains to do it quietly without obvious conflict.

Care to expand why "Europe needs the UK FAR FAR more than the UK needs Europe"?

And please stop with that "The EU is Hitlers dream" nonsense. You obviously don't know what Hitler wanted. I'll give you a hint: It was certainly not an economic and politic alliance of sovereign states.

The most significant reason for this period of peace is the stand-off between America and the Soviet Union. The perceived threat of mutual extinction had a calming effect though it did give rise to proxy wars in other regions of the world: other national peoples being killed instead of Europeans.
NATO is the military muscle underpinning a protected Europe allowing it peace and therefore relative prosperity under a secular democracy political system and a somewhat free capitalist financial system.
The Soviet threat has gone being replaced by the threat of an aggressive Putin of Russia and another with China flexing its muscles in Asia.
The EU has grown in a haphazard and short-sighted manner. Just look at the Greek / German problem, a mixing of oil and water.
The other world problems of global terrorism, mass migrations in short time periods, etc. are beyond the capabilities of the EU's leadership if one can say that the EU has a set of leaders. The EU is becoming weaker, from the inside, by the day but 'it' does not realise this, will not admit to it.
And Europe has never fully taken on the responsibility for it's defence, having relied on the USA and NATO to cover the bases.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
People may wish death away but it comes to us all the same.

I never said that the EU is the SOLE reason for peace in Europe, but it's one of the peacekeepers for innereuropean matters.
As someone who served her time in the army, I can confirm that Germanys military is in a horrific state and in badly need of a higher budget.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum."

That was pretty much the leitmotif of the Cold War. And I would prefer if we could refrain from starting another arms race ...

What makes the EU weak against the current global problems is the dissension in it. But it's the point of a democracy that you can have diffent opinions, isn't it?

 

[Marra Morgan]

Oh one more thing IMO Hitler would LOVE the EU, it's more or less what he wanted, the EU just had the brains to do it quietly without obvious conflict.

Good last point there, I think it just about sums up your grasp of politics and history.

 

[Parmo]

I never said that the EU is the SOLE reason for peace in Europe, but it's one of the peacekeepers for innereuropean matters.
As someone who served her time in the army, I can confirm that Germanys military is in a horrific state and in badly need of a higher budget.

You did not but I never said you did.
Confirmation indeed.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
That was pretty much the leitmotif of the Cold War. And I would prefer if we could refrain from starting another arms race ...

I think its been around a lot longer than that.
You and I can prefer all we want... but that's a major point.
I prefer to live in a secular democracy but other people have different ideas, namely to destroy secular democracy.

What makes the EU weak against the current global problems is the dissension in it. But it's the point of a democracy that you can have diffent opinions, isn't it?

Chicken and egg: global problems and dissension.

Not the sole nor the main point, well not in my different opinion.
There can be different opinions but can you, should you express them? Without fear of harmful consequences to society or any individual?

 

[Roybe]

Incorrect analogy, this is more like the war of independence. Any American expecting Britain to stay in the EU should have also expected the US to STAY a British colony and be ruled and controlled from afar. To not say that would mean being an utter hypocrite.
NO Country wants to be ruled from afar.

I can see this point, however, the joining of the EU, unlike colonialism, was a voluntary choice by all nations, to unify as a collection of sovereign nations. This appears from my point of view, more a secession, than a fight for freedom from a colonial power.

Your issue here, seems more to be a 'crazy Right' issue than a 'loony Left' issue.


Oh..and if you want to have problems suffering from mental health issues...jump the pond. Here, they'd rather you die and/or kill others before they get you any kind of public help for mental health issues.

 

[Roybe]

This is an interesting point really.

The civil war resulted from insistence of the central government to maintain the US union at all costs, against the claims of the confederates that the union was a union of separate states, self governing, each with their own laws, administrations and so on.

The same arguments had been used by the central government in the British Empire for 500 years, which resulted in numerous wars and conflicts in the British Isles and other parts of the Empire. That is now past here. The Empire has disintegrated. Most of Ireland has left and the remaining states of the British Isles are either completely self governing or heading that way. Indeed Scotland seems to be heading for a complete separation with no conflict at all.

It is unlikely there will be any further attempts by any US state to separate from the Union now, given the manner of the paranoia that has been generated there, especially since 1950. But I wonder, if the Confederate revolution had not been attempted in the 19th century, and had emerged now, would the reaction be as violent?

The designer of the violence was William Sherman. Would/could that violence occur today?

Although, I'm not sure, my hunch is that it would. Leaving the number of deaths to the side (there are a couple different reasons for so many killed), where the violence was truly meted out against the population, was in the destruction of infrastructure and economic building blocks of the region. It would not be inconceivable (yes, I DO know the meaning of the word! ) for the 'Union' today to destroy all roads, bridges, rails, phone lines, electric wires, dams, etc. on their way through a march to take back their state from 'terrorists'.

 

[Becks]

It would not be inconceivable (yes, I DO know the meaning of the word! ) for the 'Union' today to destroy all roads, bridges, rails, phone lines, electric wires, dams, etc. on their way through a march to take back their state from 'terrorists'.

Well, I had to google it

Scorched earth in the own state? The only situation were that makes sense is if you're losing the war, isn't it?
I'm not quite sure if I understood correctly what you meant.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Care to expand why "Europe needs the UK FAR FAR more than the UK needs Europe"?

And please stop with that "The EU is Hitlers dream" nonsense. You obviously don't know what Hitler wanted. I'll give you a hint: It was certainly not an economic and politic alliance of sovereign states.

Ok, UK pumps FAR more into the EU coffers than it gets out, UK has a trade deficit with Europe. If Europe didn't need the UK I highly doubt there would be such scaremongering bull coming out of every rancid orifice of the Pro EU.

Nope Hitler wanted to control Europe, there's very little difference between those in control of the EU and Hitler there.

Good last point there, I think it just about sums up your grasp of politics and history.

Nonsense, as I say above Hitler wanted to control Europe and that's exactly what the EU is doing. I have a strong grasp of politics and History, plus a shed load of common sense that I see utterly lacking in the loony liberals. Look at the history of Mass immigration and tell me where it has EVER been good for the peoples already there?...I'll give you a little clue....the answer is NEVER. Look how Hitler manipulated the problems Germany faced to seize power, many of those problems are happening again. Loony liberals far too stupid to see the wood for the trees.

I can see this point, however, the joining of the EU, unlike colonialism, was a voluntary choice by all nations, to unify as a collection of sovereign nations. This appears from my point of view, more a secession, than a fight for freedom from a colonial power.

Your issue here, seems more to be a 'crazy Right' issue than a 'loony Left' issue.


Oh..and if you want to have problems suffering from mental health issues...jump the pond. Here, they'd rather you die and/or kill others before they get you any kind of public help for mental health issues.

Incorrect I'm afraid, NO-one in the UK ratified a voluntary joining of the EU, we voted to join the Common Market. The people of the UK were NEVER asked if we wanted to join the EU so it was not voluntary at all. It's all been forced on us against the will of many in the UK. I see that as a fight from a controlling power that I in no way ratified and agreed with. It's FAR more an American Independence thing than an American Civil War thing.

Nope my issue is with the Loony left AND the Far Right both are as bad as each other. Loony Left making asinine decisions based on utter stupidity and a lack of common sense, these decisions will/are stir/ring up tensions all over Europe that the far right are capitalising on. With a little bit of reasonable common sense this could all be defused, but no....loony left wants 90% of the worlds population living in Europe.

Some immigration is good, that is a given. Quality is always needed. Mass immigration is bad, always has been and always will be. The fact Britain finds it hard to stop criminals getting in and just as hard to deport criminals beggars my belief and no matter what the loony left say this IS happening FACT. That Britain already has it's own criminal elements is utterly irrelevant to the argument, we don't want to import MORE.

I have no need to jump the pond, the way the NHS is collapsing under the weight of too many people and the way private health care is being pushed now in the UK I can see us having a system similar to yours. Then maybe I will do one of those things you mention. I am in no doubt that my future if Britain stays in the EU is not rosy.


Limited immigration - yes
Mass immigration - no
control of borders - yes
open borders - no
trade agreement - yes

That's what the UK needs, none of the other faff.


And for a bit of background information I am a lifelong Labour supporter (no longer as "new Labour" and now nut job Corbyn have killed that), socialist and liberal, but I'm centre left. Not rabid loony far left. Loony left will still call me far right LOL, which utterly cracks me up!

 

[Roybe]

Well, I had to google it

Scorched earth in the own state? The only situation were that makes sense is if you're losing the war, isn't it?
I'm not quite sure if I understood correctly what you meant.

The idea of Sherman was based on this quote "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. " Using these tactics 'My aim then was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us.

All of Shermans actions were done to humiliate the South, and make them fearful of ever raising the spectre of Civil War again. His tactics were to remove as much of the Souths economic engine as possible...thus the destruction of the rail system, etc.

In today's equivalent, that would mean destroying infrastructure, particularly the Federally provided infrastructure...road ways, trains, and the like. It would also not be beyond reason to destroy the ability to communicate, including internet access, phone lines, etc.

To truly embarass the population today, a destruction of the banking system and high tech hubs would also be solidly targeted.

It's more of a 'directed scorched earth', rather than a wholesale destroy everything.

If you want to see the American military strategy, writ large, look at the recent work done throughout the Middle East...and remember that the powers that be would be much more cruel to our citizens.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Ok, UK pumps FAR more into the EU coffers than it gets out, UK has a trade deficit with Europe.

Wales is a net beneficiary - we get more than we put in. The Leave campaign has put nothing on the table to address our loss in income should the UK as a whole withdraw. I don't find making my country poorer a compelling argument.

 

[Becks]

Ok, UK pumps FAR more into the EU coffers than it gets out, UK has a trade deficit with Europe. If Europe didn't need the UK I highly doubt there would be such scaremongering bull coming out of every rancid orifice of the Pro EU.

Nope Hitler wanted to control Europe, there's very little difference between those in control of the EU and Hitler there.

Nonsense, as I say above Hitler wanted to control Europe and that's exactly what the EU is doing. I have a strong grasp of politics and History, plus a shed load of common sense that I see utterly lacking in the loony liberals. Look at the history of Mass immigration and tell me where it has EVER been good for the peoples already there?...I'll give you a little clue....the answer is NEVER. Look how Hitler manipulated the problems Germany faced to seize power, many of those problems are happening again. Loony liberals far too stupid to see the wood for the trees.

Hitler aimed for a great german Reich, mainly located in eastern europe and the domination of the nations in western europe, leaving out all the racial nonsense he claimed as his goal. Comparing the EU to that is more than just a bit tinfoil. Also the situation in Germany after WW 1 and during the Weimar republic was completely different.

How many does the UK pay per week to the EU? I think I read in the other thread to this topic that they calculated about 350 Million pounds per week.

It's funny that they always forget that the UK doesn't pay two thirds of that share unlike every other state in the EU. That thing is called UK rebate/UK correction and basically strikes all the money you would get back over subventions etc.
In the end the EU budget would miss one third of the contribution of the UK. Not the whole.

You have a whole lot of these special rights in the EU. Freedom of travel in the Schengen area for example. Or the "Opt out" for certain laws regarding interior and justice.

Of course the EU profits from the UK as a member, but the UK profits likewise.

I already said a few posts earlier that I don't know what is more profitable for the UK. It's your choice, not mine.

I just try to understand in the slightest how such an opposition emerged, when the EU gave a whole load of special rights to the UK.

And please don't come with the Hitler argument again. It's not comparable. Godwins law has been met.

 

[Patrick_68000]

And the intimidations continues ... The countries of G7 alert on the "shock" which would cause the Brexit. The Ministers of Finance gathered in Japan consider that the exit of Great Britain of the European Union presents a risk not only for the British but also for the global economy.

 

[beelbeebub]

And the intimidations continues ... The countries of G7 alert on the "shock" which would cause the Brexit. The Ministers of Finance gathered in Japan consider that the exit of Great Britain of the European Union presents a risk not only for the British but also for the global economy.

if lots of people from different backgrounds, different parts of the world, different industries and disciplines all say they are against X of that X would be bad.

1 it could be a vast misinformation campaign, a conspiracy involving hundreds of high ranking officials from across the globe.

2 X may genuinely be a bad idea.

Time to apply Occam's razor.....

 

[Patrick_68000]

if lots of people from different backgrounds, different parts of the world, different industries and disciplines all say they are against X of that X would be bad.

1 it could be a vast misinformation campaign, a conspiracy involving hundreds of high ranking officials from across the globe.

2 X may genuinely be a bad idea.

Time to apply Occam's razor.....

Cruel dilemma

 

[Dane Barclay]

As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Out of interest. Do you have figures for that? I did a bit of a search and total losses for WWII alone was a low estimate of 70 million( 70,000,000). That's both military and civilian.

I won't argue the point but I like to research History as a hobby. So much stuff gets distorted and confused, it drives me mad on times.

Peace brother.

 

[Becks]

Out of interest. Do you have figures for that? I did a bit of a search and total losses for WWII alone was a low estimate of 70 million( 70,000,000). That's both military and civilian.

I won't argue the point but I like to research History as a hobby. So much stuff gets distorted and confused, it drives me mad on times.

Peace brother.

"American lives" I think that should resolve the confusion about the losses