Does FD really think this is "healthy" balance?

[Dave1029]

The FDL and ASP explorer are about the same size. So why does one have gimped FSD? There's no logic as to why. Just because some messed up people yell balance. OH GOD DONT LET THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME! MOAR FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING!!! That's what the players really want!

Speed. Agility. Cargo. Internals. Weapons capability. Power management. These should all be balancing factors. The *only* time jump range should be a balancing factor is for traders. And being fully laden kind of already does that.

 

[xondk]

They would if you had aircraft that flew at 5000 kph on a thimble of fuel, or all you had to do to make a ship jump an enormous distance was making it light and put a larger FSD into it. Response times are absolutely critical for military that is the entire reason they have aircraft carriers in the first place, because they allow you to respond quickly and are themselves mobile.

Think of it this way, if the empire was going against the federation but the federation takes twice as long to get its forces anywhere, who do you thinks going to win? I mean didn't they have military fuel in the earlier Elites?

Bingo, right on the spot, response time, and the FDL has an awesome response time within the range it is made for, where you are based near where you want to be, which is exactly the point of it at least in my eyes, the FDL is not meant to travel 200+ ly to get to a battle, but maybe work in a say 50ly heck I'd say even 100ly bubble? of which it would do just fine even in its current state.

There should be more then enough combat to find in such a bubble, you do not NEED to travel 200+ ly to find combat, you might want to, but you do not need to, and lets not forget, once you are in the area where you want to hunt, why would you need to go anywhere else other then a place to claim the bounties?

 

[Mohrgan]

The FDL and ASP explorer are about the same size. So why does one have gimped FSD? There's no logic as to why. Just because some messed up people yell balance. OH GOD DONT LET THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME! MOAR FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING!!! That's what the players really want!

Speed. Agility. Cargo. Internals. Weapons capability. Power management. These should all be balancing factors. The *only* time jump range should be a balancing factor is for traders. And being fully laden kind of already does that.

Nothing like a completely self-serving post to put things in focus. The Size Class of every Module on a ship has to be part of the balance around ships. The size of your FSD controls the jump range of a ship. That is how the Jump Range of a ship needs to be part of the balance equation. Not liking the results, does not make it an invalid measure of overall balance.

 

[xondk]

The FDL and ASP explorer are about the same size. So why does one have gimped FSD? There's no logic as to why. Just because some messed up people yell balance. OH GOD DONT LET THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME! MOAR FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING!!! That's what the players really want!

Speed. Agility. Cargo. Internals. Weapons capability. Power management. These should all be balancing factors. The *only* time jump range should be a balancing factor is for traders. And being fully laden kind of already does that.

So given that the FDL has bad cargo only, what would you sacrifice, to get good jump range, in the name of balance?

 

[Mohrgan]

They would if you had aircraft that flew at 5000 kph on a thimble of fuel, or all you had to do to make a ship jump an enormous distance was making it light and put a larger FSD into it. Response times are absolutely critical for military that is the entire reason they have aircraft carriers in the first place, because they allow you to respond quickly and are themselves mobile.

Think of it this way, if the empire was going against the federation but the federation takes twice as long to get its forces anywhere, who do you thinks going to win? I mean didn't they have military fuel in the earlier Elites?

It would be the time it takes the Carrier(s) to get on station that you are discounting. Right now the Navy anticipates where there carriers are needed and sails them there in advance. It is a matter of international news when a carrier group changes station, or moves into a different position. Those fighters could never be where they are needed, as fast, nor for as long. There is no real analogy with todays Navy air power, and what we see in Elite. In Elite the fighters are already well more capable for traveling distances than a fighter jet.

Just accept it. Jump range matters, and Fighters suffer for it. My FdL certainly does. That's why I have a Python as well.

 

[Dave1029]

The FDL has few utility mounts, the weapons are not ideal... I'd rather have 2 C3 and a C4. So it suffers slightly against large ships compared to even a Vulture. Very few internals, and very little cargo space. It's only good at fighting. That's it. Why does it need to give up anything in the first place? Jump range is one of the few things that don't affect other players. If I'm in a dogfight with you, I don't care that you can jump 40 light years. It's not a balancing thing. It's just stupid. In my mind, all of the ships should have similar jump ranges. The best ship for the job you are trying to do, should be based on internals, utility mounts, and weapon mounts. That's a lot more balanced. The FDL can jump 500 LY for all I care. It's still not going to be anything more than a fighter. Just like the type 9 could jump 500 LY. Still doesn't mean it can fight. Even explorers. If the ASP can jump 500 LY's, it doesn't mean it can explore faster. Still has to go system to system. You can just reach your destination quicker. Why this is incomprehensible to many people, is beyond me. Now, jump ranges shouldn't be too extreme, or then you've gotten rid of the traveling part of the game. Which is a part. Just not in a healthy moderation as of now for many ships.

 

[Mohrgan]

The FDL has few utility mounts, the weapons are not ideal... I'd rather have 2 C3 and a C4. So it suffers slightly against large ships compared to even a Viper. Very few internals, and very little cargo space. It's only good at fighting. That's it. Why does it need to give up anything in the first place? Jump range is one of the few things that don't affect other players. If I'm in a dogfight with you, I don't care that you can jump 40 light years. It's not a balancing thing. It's just stupid. In my mind, all of the ships should have similar jump ranges. The best ship for the job you are trying to do, should be based on internals, utility mounts, and weapon mounts. That's a lot more balanced. The FDL can jump 500 LY for all I care. It's still not going to be anything more than a fighter. Just like the type 9 could jump 500 LY. Still doesn't mean it can fight. Even explorers. If the ASP can jump 500 LY's, it doesn't mean it can explore faster. Still has to go system to system. You can just reach your destination quicker. Why this is incomprehensible to many people, is beyond me. Now, jump ranges shouldn't be too extreme, or then you've gotten rid of the traveling part of the game. Which is a part. Just not in a healthy moderation as of now for many ships.

The FdL has 6 Utility Mounts, that is not 'few'. For a medium ship, that is half again more than it's nearest competitor. This trade off, jump range for combat capability, has more to do with balancing the internals of a ship, than calculating it's exact jump range. I don;t see an FdL getting the jump range of an Asp Explorer. That's what would happen if the FdL simply got the next size up in FSD's. Modules are part of the compromise between ships. If you don;t like the range you can develop with an FdL, get an FAS, or some other ship. The DBE, and DBS can have considerable jump range in combat fit.

Make your choice, and make the best of it. It's up to you to build the best ship you can. It's not up to the Dev's to make sure you are all capable in one ship.

Each of the true combat ships suffer from low jump ranges. It turns out that is something of a feature of that class of ship. It makes sense, and should continue.

 

[Dave1029]

The FdL has 6 Utility Mounts, that is not 'few'. For a medium ship, that is half again more than it's nearest competitor. It has more to do with balancing the internals of a ship, that calculating it's exact jump range. I don;t see an FdL having the jump range of an Asp Explorer. That's what would happen if the FdL simply got the next size up in FSD's. Modules are part of the compromise between ships. If you don;t like the range you can develop with an FdL, get an FAS. Make your choice, and make the best of it. It's up to you to build the best ship you can. It's not up to the Dev's to make sure you are all capable in one ship.

Each of the true combat ships suffer from low jump ranges. It turns out that is something of a feature of that class of ship. It makes sense, and should continue.

Agree to disagree. I'm of the mind of don't waste my time with silly mechanics that you think are necessary. You obviously like having your time wasted. Right on commander. Also, FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING. 30 times in a row just to get to a community goal. Never again. I sold that piece of junk.

 

[Derath]

It would be the time it takes the Carrier(s) to get on station that you are discounting. Right now the Navy anticipates where there carriers are needed and sails them there in advance. It is a matter of international news when a carrier group changes station, or moves into a different position. Those fighters could never be where they are needed, as fast, nor for as long. There is no real analogy with todays Navy air power, and what we see in Elite. In Elite the fighters are already well more capable for traveling distances than a fighter jet.

Just accept it. Jump range matters, and Fighters suffer for it. My FdL certainly does. That's why I have a Python as well.

I'll never accept it until it has a purpose other than making it take longer to go from A to B, I will never believe that player time only should be a balance stat, effectiveness ats its role is a balance stat, distributor size, maneuverability, weaponry, internals, utility slots. FSD has absolutely no impact on its effectiveness, it only has an impact on the quality of life for using the ship.

Put another way if the FSD is a balance stat both the Asp and the Anaconda are overbudget as their weaponry and internals are excellent for their sizes when compared to their peers and in isolation and infact only the DBX actually has suitable internals for its FSD range realistically. I mean the imperial courier is second to only the vulture in its size category for combat yet is apparently fine with a range of 20+ly.

You might be fine with various combat ships that have to have terrible jump ranges for arbitrary reasons but I will continue to bang the drum whenever I see one of these threads, as if the FDL jumped 20 ly nobody would notice but i'd save 5 minutes

Edit: fixed some typos

 

[Mohrgan]

Agree to disagree. I'm of the mind of don't waste my time with silly mechanics that you think are necessary. You obviously like having your time wasted. Right on commander. Also, FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING. 30 times in a row just to get to a community goal. Never again. I sold that piece of junk.

You did the right thing. If jump range means enough to you, you will gravitate to the the ship that gives you what you want. Working as intended.

By the way, I see all of my in-game time as basically wasted. When I want to go vast distances, I choose a different ship. Even selling the FdL in one spot, to buy it again in another. A little time with some internet searches, and I can find what I'm looking for closer to the fun. This is not Rocket Science.

 

[Comrade Error]

I wouldn't get too stuck up into the whole balance thing with Engineers coming. The concept of balance goes out the window.

Also there is still Robigo mode switching making billions in Asps and Pythons while with piracy you may be lucky and get 10 million after a day, that'll be PvE piracy not PvP piracy.

I think the concept of balance was thrown out the window soon after the video in my sig was made.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'll never accept it until it has a purpose other than making it take longer to go from A to B, I will never believe that player time only should be a balance stat, effectiveness ats its role is a balance stat, distributor size, maneuverability, weaponry, internals, utility slots. FSD has absolutely no impact on its effectiveness, it only has an impact on the quality of life for using the ship.

Put another way if the FSD is a balance stat both the Asp and the Anaconda are overbudget as their weaponry and internals are excellent for their sizes when compared to their peers and in isolation and infact only the DBX actually has suitable internals for its FSD range realistically. I mean the imperial courier is second to only the vulture in its size category for combat yet is apparently fine with a range of 30+ly.

You might be fine with various combat ships that have to have terrible jump ranges for arbitrary reasons but I will continue to bang the drum whenever I see one of these threads, as if the FDL jumped 20 ly nobody would notice but i'd save 5 minutes

That's not true and you know it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be complaining. You know that you hesitate to travel long distances, that benefits others who don;t mind, have other ships, or find a better way. You are competing on the same field as anyone else. The time it takes to get involved makes a great difference to the mechanics in the game.

You simply don;t like the situation, and want to be appeased. I don;t see it. Jump in a Python and get to the CG. Get in a Hauler, and buy an FdL locally. You have many solutions open to you. We don;t need FD shifting things just to quiet the few dissenters.

 

[Miko_Stargazer]

I have to imagine there is some futuristic version of Luis CK doing his airplane bit reset for the Elite Universe. Harsh Language Youtube "Oh you had to take a little bit longer than you'd like to travel as you exceed the speed of light?! As you laugh in the face of Einstein and take your place as a god of the Cosmos? It's going to take you half an hour to get the CG huh, you know how long your ancestors thought it was going to take? 100,000 years!"


I can't help but sample one mango.

The FDL and ASP explorer are about the same size. So why does one have gimped FSD? There's no logic as to why.

My Honda Civic is about the same size as a corvette, so why does the corvette accelerate so much faster? ships of similar size can be designed differently with different focuses. If you decided to bring your FDL instead of an Asp Explorer, I guess you felt like the combat ability of the FDL balanced out the time it would take to get to your destination.

 

[Dave1029]

If FD actually cared about real balance, the FSD would be much heavier than other modules, but the class for every ship would be raised by one. If you wanted an agile FDL, you'd stick with a D grade FSD. But to go further you'd drastically decrease your agility as hypothetically an A grade FSD would put you out of your thrusters optimum mass. This is how it should have been done. But there's a lot in this game that should have been done a certain way.

 

[Derath]

That's not true and you know it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be complaining. You know that you hesitate to travel long distances, that benefits others who don;t mind, have other ships, or find a better way. You are competing on the same field as anyone else. The time it takes to get involved makes a great difference to the mechanics in the game.

You simply don;t like the situation, and want to be appeased. I don;t see it. Jump in a Python and get to the CG. Get in a Hauler, and buy an FdL locally. You have many solutions open to you. We don;t need FD shifting things just to quiet the few dissenters.

I don't hesitate I just go where I want to go and press jump lots of times, the key is the people who don't understand balance have already gravitated to the ships that aren't, which is why your suggesting I go get in a python which again is arbitrarily not gimped when it comes to jumping, despite being literally good at everything (and my favourite ship).

The time it takes to get involved has absolutely no impact on the mechanics of the game only your own personal time, you aren't competing it isn't a race.

 

[Dave1029]

I have to imagine there is some futuristic version of Luis CK doing his airplane bit reset for the Elite Universe. Harsh Language Youtube "Oh you had to take a little bit longer than you'd like to travel as you exceed the speed of light?! As you laugh in the face of Einstein and take your place as a god of the Cosmos? It's going to take you half an hour to get the CG huh, you know how long your ancestors thought it was going to take? 100,000 years!"


I can't help but sample one mango.


My Honda Civic is about the same size as a corvette, so why does the corvette accelerate so much faster? ships of similar size can be designed differently with different focuses. If you decided to bring your FDL instead of an Asp Explorer, I guess you felt like the combat ability of the FDL balanced out the time it would take to get to your destination.

That is such a bad example. You can put the engine of a corvette, alone with a turbo charger and racing breaks in your Honda Civic. It's gunna cost a lot, but it can be done. But the Honda Civic can more or less be brought up to the performance of that Corvette.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't hesitate I just go where I want to go and press jump lots of times, the key is the people who don't understand balance have already gravitated to the ships that aren't, which is why your suggesting I go get in a python which again is arbitrarily not gimped when it comes to jumping, despite being literally good at everything (and my favourite ship).

The time it takes to get involved has absolutely no impact on the mechanics of the game only your own personal time, you aren't competing it isn't a race.

Yes you are. A CG is exactly that, a race. A race against the timer, and the leader board. It's not that those that disagree with you don;t understand balance, it's just that I accept that level of balance as acceptable. You don;t. Now you want to insist that we/I don;t understand balance. We all have to take care to internalize our opinions, and recognize them as opinions. Nothing more.

 

[Viking84]

No it's perfectly clear to you because I've seen it explained to you at least 50 times in one of the many threads about it.

You just don't like it. That's fine, your life your opinions, but stop posting disingenuous comments like the one above and own it.

I'm afraid it really isn't clear to me. I understand and accept that others (Fdev included) believe it to be a good and fair way to balance ships, but I do not.

For instance, what would you say if the speed of accessing the nav menu varied from ship to ship? Opening your left side panel in an Asp would take 30 seconds, vs 0.5 seconds in an FDL. Say the reason was something like "fighters have faster processors", followed by "because balance". That is how meaningless the large FSD range variation appears to many of us. It serves no purpose, adds no fun, adds no tactical element once your are at your destination, all it does is force anyone who wishes to travel longish distances to choose between a few ships with good FSD ranges. Assuming they value their play time of course. Players time should not be a significant balancing element in any well designed game, in my opinion.

 

[Mohrgan]

That is such a bad example. You can put the engine of a corvette, alone with a turbo charger and racing breaks in your Honda Civic. It's gunna cost a lot, but it can be done. But the Honda Civic can more or less be brought up to the performance of that Corvette.

That sounds an awful lot like the Engineers. 2.1 will offer some relief to this situation. But the balance between the ships remain. A mod'ed AspE will still jump farther than a mod'ed FdL.

 

[Dave1029]

Yes you are. A CG is exactly that, a race. A race against the timer, and the leader board. It's not that those that disagree with you don;t understand balance, it's just that I accept that level of balance as acceptable. You don;t. Now you want to insist that we/I don;t understand balance. We all have to take care to internalize our opinions, and recognize them as opinions. Nothing more.

Just because a community goal has a start and end time doesn't make it a race. If you think it's a race... Well lol. They run for an entire week. This isn't like the FDL needs to travel for an entire day to get there. It's the difference between a very annoying half hour or a relaxing and not infuriating 15 minutes.