Does FD really think this is "healthy" balance?

[Derath]

Yes you are. A CG is exactly that, a race. A race against the timer, and the leader board. It's not that those that disagree with you don;t understand balance, it's just that I accept that level of balance as acceptable. You don;t. Now you want to insist that we/I don;t understand balance. We all have to take care to internalize our opinions, and recognize them as opinions. Nothing more.

You can't have it both ways you know, if Its a race it isn't balanced because the Anaconda has the fastest TTK yet has the longest jump range, if it isn't a race it isn't balanced because its wasting your time and thats all there is to it.

Either way it isn't balanced so either way you don't understand balance if you think its ok.

 

[Purafire]

Bingo, right on the spot, response time, and the FDL has an awesome response time within the range it is made for, where you are based near where you want to be, which is exactly the point of it at least in my eyes, the FDL is not meant to travel 200+ ly to get to a battle, but maybe work in a say 50ly heck I'd say even 100ly bubble? of which it would do just fine even in its current state.

There should be more then enough combat to find in such a bubble, you do not NEED to travel 200+ ly to find combat, you might want to, but you do not need to, and lets not forget, once you are in the area where you want to hunt, why would you need to go anywhere else other then a place to claim the bounties?

Let's see.... Well lets make a game with billions of galaxies, but then tell everyone that they should stay withing 100LY. Cause, you know, those idea's don't directly conflict or anything.

Anyway with Engineers the FDL is capable of ~14 LY with armor and moderate combat fit. It is a big help with travel, much less jinking around on your route because of star spacing through the bubble. Oh and all you people that cried that it would be OP... it's coming anyway.

 

[Miko_Stargazer]

To quote this youtube video showing a honda civic with a corvette engine installed inside it: this chassis just cannot cope with the sheer power of the engine.

So I suppose you can add a turbo charger, and racing breaks, and a new suspension system, and better tires that can handle the increased torque, and maybe some reinforcement of the chassis. Now this brings up two important points.
1. Is it really a Honda Civic anymore or is it just a honda frame that a bunch of racing components have been glued onto?

2. Is my local Honda dealer going to make these adjustments? I don't think gutting the internals of your FDL to make room for a larger FSD is part of the outfitting standard service plan. Maybe you can find an Engineer that will do it for you when we reach the update.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'm afraid it really isn't clear to me. I understand and accept that others (Fdev included) believe it to be a good and fair way to balance ships, but I do not.

For instance, what would you say if the speed of accessing the nav menu varied from ship to ship? Opening your left side panel in an Asp would take 30 seconds, vs 0.5 seconds in an FDL. Say the reason was something like "fighters have faster processors", followed by "because balance". That is how meaningless the large FSD range variation appears to many of us. It serves no purpose, adds no fun, adds no tactical element once your are at your destination, all it does is force anyone who wishes to travel longish distances to choose between a few ships with good FSD ranges. Assuming they value their play time of course. Players time should not be a significant balancing element in any well designed game, in my opinion.

...'once you are at your destination'... Brushing that aside is your mistake. That time is what is used as part of the balance. What if a fighter could jump as far as a trader? How would the trader be able to High-Wake from danger? Your fighter could just line up and pursue. That would foul up the balance of ships.

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Just because a community goal has a start and end time doesn't make it a race. If you think it's a race... Well lol. They run for an entire week. This isn't like the FDL needs to travel for an entire day to get there. It's the difference between a very annoying half hour or a relaxing and not infuriating 15 minutes.

The, I can see no reason to boost their Jump Range. There no reason to get there faster.

 

[Red Anders]

Agree to disagree.

Excellent, someone who recognises the mature way to deal with differences of opinion online.

I'm of the mind of don't waste my time with silly mechanics that you think are necessary. You obviously like having your time wasted. Right on commander. Also, FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING. 30 times in a row just to get to a community goal. Never again. I sold that piece of junk.

Ah.

 

[Magic Man]

Lots of self entitled opinion in this thread, lots of "it should work this way" because I want it to work that way as well... yawn.

 

[Mohrgan]

You can't have it both ways you know, if Its a race it isn't balanced because the Anaconda has the fastest TTK yet has the longest jump range, if it isn't a race it isn't balanced because its wasting your time and thats all there is to it.

Either way it isn't balanced so either way you don't understand balance if you think its ok.

Then why doesn't everyone fly an Anaconda? I understand just fine. What you are irked about is my not agreeing.

 

[Derath]

...'once you are at your destination'... Brushing that aside is your mistake. That time is what is used as part of the balance. What if a fighter could jump as far as a trader? How would the trader be able to High-Wake from danger? Your fighter could just line up and pursue. That would foul up the balance of ships.

You can't follow high wakes with players in time to have any impact on them, if you instantly guess which system they are going to and high wake as well they will either have left the system already or dropped to SC and moved onto their next destination, if you stop and scan the destination you won't even catch a glimpse of them when you arrive.

 

[xondk]

Let's see.... Well lets make a game with billions of galaxies, but then tell everyone that they should stay withing 100LY. Cause, you know, those idea's don't directly conflict or anything.

Anyway with Engineers the FDL is capable of ~14 LY with armor and moderate combat fit. It is a big help with travel, much less jinking around on your route because of star spacing through the bubble. Oh and all you people that cried that it would be OP... it's coming anyway.

The answer would seem to be that if you travel a lot get a ship that is good at travelling? FDL can easily be sitting in one location and you can use another ship for long range stuff?

 

[Dave1029]

...'once you are at your destination'... Brushing that aside is your mistake. That time is what is used as part of the balance. What if a fighter could jump as far as a trader? How would the trader be able to High-Wake from danger? Your fighter could just line up and pursue. That would foul up the balance of ships.

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The, I can see no reason to boost their Jump Range. There no reason to get there faster.

Considering NPC's will follow or not follow regardless of if their ship is capable of it, and players never bother, that's a weak example.

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I have a hunch that these are the same people that would defend it the other way it FD initially had jump ranges be relatively equal across the board.

 

[Derath]

Then why doesn't everyone fly an Anaconda? I understand just fine. What you are irked about is my not agreeing.

Because some people are more willing to have their time wasted than others, many also have no interesting in picking a ship based on its power. (otherwise absolutely nobody would fly a T7/9)

Also i'm not irked I'm just waiting for a good counterpoint and there are some, but you keep going for the ones that are rubbish instead

 

[Mohrgan]

You can't follow high wakes with players in time to have any impact on them, if you instantly guess which system they are going to and high wake as well they will either have left the system already or dropped to SC and moved onto their next destination, if you stop and scan the destination you won't even catch a glimpse of them when you arrive.

Not so. Not even in the slightest. I have been involved with this scenario a number of times, and you are, in my experience, wrong. Ships that don;t jump out of an aggressors range can and do get pursued.

 

[Dave1029]

Because some people are more willing to have their time wasted than others, many also have no interesting in picking a ship based on its power. (otherwise absolutely nobody would fly a T7/9)

Also i'm not irked I'm just waiting for a good counterpoint and there are some, but you keep going for the ones that are rubbish instead

To add to this, most people don't have the funds for one. A combat fitted Conda is quite pricey.

 

[Mohrgan]

Because some people are more willing to have their time wasted than others, many also have no interesting in picking a ship based on its power. (otherwise absolutely nobody would fly a T7/9)

Also i'm not irked I'm just waiting for a good counterpoint and there are some, but you keep going for the ones that are rubbish instead

It seems to me you have had any number of 'good counterpoint', but you just reject them. That's fine. It is telling that when FD buffed the FdL, not too terribly long ago, they decided to leave the FSD alone. We'll see how your campaign works out. I will certainly benefit from it if you prevail. But, I don;t expect much to happen.

 

[Derath]

Not so. Not even in the slightest. I have been involved with this scenario a number of times, and you are, in my experience, wrong. Ships that don;t jump out of an aggressors range can and do get pursued.

So have I, I could let you do this to me 1000 times you wouldn't catch me once, if you caught a player you were following via high wake its because they were too lazy to expect you to follow and nothing else.

 

[Dave1029]

Not so. Not even in the slightest. I have been involved with this scenario a number of times, and you are, in my experience, wrong. Ships that don;t jump out of an aggressors range can and do get pursued.

Like I said. NPC's will do what they want. I highly doubt you've been pursued by a player. Unless you just relaxed and basked in the Suns energy of the system you jumped to for 30 minutes. 10 second FSD cool down, 10 seconds it takes to scan the high wake destination. Do you see why it's impossible?

 

[Viking84]

...'once you are at your destination'... Brushing that aside is your mistake. That time is what is used as part of the balance. What if a fighter could jump as far as a trader? How would the trader be able to High-Wake from danger? Your fighter could just line up and pursue. That would foul up the balance of ships.

I guess that is a valid view, although I believe the same balance could be achieved with giving the fighters only marginally less range, instead of, in some cases, a third of the range of the multipurpose kings (Asp and Conda). Tighten down the variance considerably so that your choice of ship comes down to meaningful decisions like hardpoint layouts, internal compartments, speed, agility, heat capacity, power and so on. Not how much boredom you can tolerate due to honk-jumping for too long.

As an example, I'd love to use my Clipper for running missions. But as every journey takes about twice as long as a properly equipped Asp I can no longer stomach it, so I end up flying the horrible Asp instead just to get some proper game time out of a session. And a Clipper is a dream compared to a proper combat ship, which I won't even touch as I'd end up tearing my hair out from all the friendship charging going on...

 

[Mohrgan]

I guess that is a valid view, although I believe the same balance could be achieved with giving the fighters only marginally less range, instead of, in some cases, a third of the range of the multipurpose kings (Asp and Conda). Tighten down the variance considerably so that your choice of ship comes down to meaningful decisions like hardpoint layouts, internal compartments, speed, agility, heat capacity, power and so on. Not how much boredom you can tolerate due to honk-jumping for too long.

As an example, I'd love to use my Clipper for running missions. But as every journey takes about twice as long as a properly equipped Asp I can no longer stomach it, so I end up flying the horrible Asp instead just to get some proper game time out of a session. And a Clipper is a dream compared to a proper combat ship, which I won't even touch as I'd end up tearing my hair out from all the friendship charging going on...

In my opinion, your post just serves to illustrate how FSD range is and should be part of the balance between ships. If you say that Jump Range is a determining factor in what ship you fly, then that is exactly why it's there. It makes you decide what is important to you for any given task. That choice made you fly a ship you don;t particularly like, to complete a task. That sounds to me like just the very situation these choices are meant to produce. Adapt and overcome.

If you gave, say, a C4 FSD just a little more range, you would be boosting all of the ships outfitted with a C4 FSD. That would just have some complaining about that relationship. Otherwise, you'd just have to settle for a little magic to make the C4 FSD more efficient for an FdL. That seems a bit too much like pandering to me. I fly an FdL most of the time but, I still don;t think things should change. It all makes sense to me.

 

[Viking84]

Like I said. NPC's will do what they want. I highly doubt you've been pursued by a player. Unless you just relaxed and basked in the Suns energy of the system you jumped to for 30 minutes. 10 second FSD cool down, 10 seconds it takes to scan the high wake destination. Do you see why it's impossible?

Ditto, never ever been pursued by a player despite spending more and more time in open. The FSD range serves one purpose only, and that is to limit the variation of ships I can be bother to play with because using any of the short-jumping ones means that most of my play time is spent watching the Friendship Drive charging up instead of doing what I want.

What I do hope for is that 2.1 will bring more variation in which missions pay a lot. At the moment the only high paying missions you can take involve long distance haulage or smuggling. Using anything other than an Asp for them is just wasting play time for me. And I really don't like the Asp...

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In my opinion, your post just serves to illustrate how FSD range is and should be part of the balance between ships. If you say that Jump Range is a determining factor in what ship you fly, then that is exactly why it's there. It makes you decide what is important to you for any given task. That choice made you fly a ship you don;t particularly like, to complete a task. That sounds to me like just the very situation these choices are meant to produce. Adapt and overcome.

That was my point from earlier, there are a number of ways to force me to choose other ships (such as my menu access speed example a few pages ago), but they are not necessarily good. Force me to make choices, but don't force me to trade boredom against ship stats, that is not very entertaining game design to put it mildly.

 

[Miko_Stargazer]

Ditto, never ever been pursued by a player despite spending more and more time in open. The FSD range serves one purpose only, and that is to limit the variation of ships I can be bother to play with because using any of the short-jumping ones means that most of my play time is spent watching the Friendship Drive charging up instead of doing what I want.

Are you looking for high pay, or missions in particular? Because if you are looking for income in a combat ship you'd do best hanging out in one system with RES and Haz RES sites. You could spend a full week fighting in such a system and only need to use supercruise