Sag A* mystery....

Luke3107

Luke3107
So I made my first trip to Sag A* today. (I know, hold your applause) But while flying around getting some funky screenshots I noticed one "Renegade Star" that seemed to be actually IN the black hole.

Just up, and right of the A*
Screenshot-Original.png


About 2cm and slightly right from the bottom
Screenshot-Original.png


They're both the same star but taken from different angles.

What could possible maintain an orbit that far beyond the Event Horizon? (<I have been informed I misenterpreted the definition of the event horizon, I mean within the distortion field)

Edit: This is not a serious post. I hoped it would give people a chuckle, but I think I worded it wrong. I will PRETEND it's a stubborn star, but I believe it is just a minor graphical error.
 
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MarcusVatta

MarcusVatta
It's a good thing that ED doesn't actually model the black hole itself, but rather just the spacial distortion, since some estimates put the edge of the Sag A. accretion disk at 6.25 Light-hours, or 375 Ls, from the singularity. You'd be well on your way to being gamma radiation if that was the case.

And since ED doesn't render the black hole itself, what you're looking at isn't beyond the event horizon, but rather a hugely magnified and distorted section of the starfield directly behind the distortion field from your perspective. There'll often be a few stars in there.

Hopefully someday we'll be able to observe the accretion disk itself, a la Interstellar.
 

iain666

iain666
The pronounced ring isn't the event horizon, it's gravitational lensing. The light from the dense stellar background is being smeared into that circular pattern due to how it is distorted by the intense gravitational pull of the black hole, the circular smear is not the event horizon. So that's just a bright star somewhere behind the black hole from the direction you're looking that's bright enough to still be obvious against the distorted background.

The event horizon is the point where you can't see the other side. Ever. If there was a light source on the other side the light would never escape and you could never see it.

(it's not really ninja'd when you got distracted by the game without hitting post and ended up replying 13 minutes later, is it?)
 
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Luke3107

Luke3107
See, I'd quite happily accept that it is indeed a star just behind the black hole, if it wasn't for the fact it is easily identifiable from any angle you view it at.

I'll post a video at some point and show it properly, because in a full circle of Sag A* it passes within a cm or two of the centre, TWICE!!!!. Just like if you circled a star with a planet in between you and it, and circled the star, the star would first pass in front of the star, then behind it. Only in this case, the star remains visible the whole time.

I guess this would be feasible if the Black Hole itself was actually only a few mm big when viewing from this distance.... If that's the case, then hush my mouth lol :)

(I realise now I misunderstood what the term 'Event Horizon' actually referred to)
 

iain666

iain666
Is it S2? I've never actually visited Sgr A* so I don't know precisely how they're arranged in game or how close they are but local system bodies don't experience the lensing effects, only the sky box, so that could end up looking like it's doing something funny.

If it's not that then it's a glitch in the graphics doing something funny with a not-very-on-an-astronmical-scale distant bright star. There are some known problems with how it works out the lensing effects (CMDR Ziljan passim ad nauseam ;))
 

Luke3107

Luke3107
I thought it was S2 at first, but then I honked with my ADS and discovered it was behind me so that theory left pretty quick lol.

If anything it probably is just a small graphics bug, but I will continue to believe it is a Renegade Star desperately whizzing around just out of reach of the Black Hole.

There's two videos I'm going to make and share here, perhaps tomorrow if I get the chance. The first will be of the Renegade circling inside the distortion field, the second is going to be of S2 apparently overtaking me in order to be where it should when I went to scan it with my DSS.

(For the record, S2 is just about 100K Ls away from Sag A* in ED, no idea about real life as I wasn't even aware of it until now lol
 
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newman1702

newman1702
The closer to the center, the higher the distortion / strength of the lens, so just like a real life strong lens, it magnifies a tiny area really strongly. In this case small movements from you cause a tiny part of the starfield to seemingly move about inside. I know you'd like to have discovered a star inside, but you haven't; you wouldn't be able to see one inside the event horizon, nor would it be able to survive - the intense gravitational forces would have ripped it apart. Unlike manufactured lenses, this one is a sphere and the effect you descibe seems pretty expected to me if orbiting the thing, galactic plane perpendicular.

Move your ship so the galaxy starfield is no longer behind Sag A (look at it from the top or bottom, galactic plane relative) and I wager it'll be gone.
 
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Scinaya

Scinaya
Luke3107 said:
See, I'd quite happily accept that it is indeed a star just behind the black hole, if it wasn't for the fact it is easily identifiable from any angle you view it at.

I'll post a video at some point and show it properly, because in a full circle of Sag A* it passes within a cm or two of the centre, TWICE!!!!
Click to expand...
That is exactly what the gravitational lensing in game does. Nothing disappears behind a black hole as the lensing projects it seemingly in front of it. That is why it also seems to move back and forth in front of the BH: first you see it move across BH, but it is behind it, next it is on another angle behind the BH and thus seems to move to another direction. It could even be another very bright star, there are plenty in the center. It is trippy(!), but happens with all black holes. Items in the same system are not affected by gravitational lensing sadly. It would cause some great views with black holes close oribiting a star. So the star you are viewing must be on another system.

And like Alex Brentnall already said, the orbit line you see is the BH's own orbit.
 
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Luke3107

Luke3107
Alex Brentnall said:
This is orbit lines, the mass of Source 2 (even though it's so far away) causes Sag A* to have a small elliptical orbit around a random point. There's a few here for stations but the principle is the same I believe: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93658
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It's not the orbit lines I am referring to.

newman1702 said:
I know you'd like to have discovered a star inside, but you haven't.
Move your ship so the galaxy starfield is no longer behind Sag A (look at it from the top or bottom, galactic plane relative) and I wager it'll be gone.
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1. I don't, I found it amusing but I haven't taken it seriously. Apologies if it seems otherwise.
2. This is kinda my point, it is visible from ANY ANGLE you can circle the BH. At no point does it disappear behind me or off to one side, hence I did say I'd conceded it is most likely a graphical glitch but I will pretend it is a stubborn star.

Scinaya said:
That is exactly what the gravitational lensing in game does. Nothing disappears behind a black hole as the lensing projects it seemingly in front of it.
And like Alex Brentnall already said, the orbit line you see is the BH's own orbit.
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I get that, but my point is that no matter the angle I view it, I can see it. So at no point is it behind me meaning it must always be in front. Do you get my meaning? It's hard to explain...

Also, the orbit line isn't what I'm referring to.


I've edited my OP to avoid further confusion but I would like everyoe to be aware, I am not completely serious about this post. I found it a little odd that this star is viewable from the full 360 degress and the only conclusion I could draw was that this star must be between me and the black hole so I thought would give people a chuckle. Apologies if I have come across otherwise.
 

Luke3107

Luke3107
Alex Brentnall said:
Also congrats on your 100th post on the forums ;p
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I had no idea lol :-D

Also, pleasr explain this damned star to me. It can't be BEHIND the BH because at no point does it leave the distortion field, but neither can it be IN the distortion field because, well, lots of Gravity
[video=youtube;jcqNjhOtP5o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcqNjhOtP5o[/video]
 

Alex Brentnall

Alex Brentnall
Luke3107 said:
I had no idea lol :-D

Also, pleasr explain this damned star to me. It can't be BEHIND the BH because at no point does it leave the distortion field, but neither can it be IN the distortion field because, well, lots of Gravity
Click to expand...

I honestly have no idea. I can't explain that :D
Very nice find though, of all the thousands of people to go to SAG A* and you spot it :p
 

Scinaya

Scinaya
Yeah you have a point that it is odd. But the object you view cannot be in the same system either, as the lensing does not affect same system objects. o_O I think it is glitch in a way the graphics work: the star that was behind BH doesn't travel quite fast enough to get to the lensing edge and graphics wise stays in it even when you circle around it. Sorry I know that's boring and I don't really wanna be a killjoy about it. :( I have seen similar effect at Maia BH and there is really only mechanical explanation for it (at least I can think of only that).

But seriously congratz on the first journey to Sag A. *applauds* That target radar image of the BH is going satisfyingly nuts and the stars dance wild around it. Party time! :>
 
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Athrael

Athrael
That "Renegade" star is actually just the light comming from Source 2 and being distorted around the black hole.
 

Luke3107

Luke3107
Athrael said:
That "Renegade" star is actually just the light comming from Source 2 and being distorted around the black hole.
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Are you implying that this light can circle all the way around the black hole and come back? Because I had S2 behind me in the pictures and in the video, I circle Sag A* multiple times and in multiple different directions.
 

bazzwano

B
MarcusVatta said:
It's a good thing that ED doesn't actually model the black hole itself, but rather just the spacial distortion, since some estimates put the edge of the Sag A. accretion disk at 6.25 Light-hours, or 375 Ls, from the singularity. You'd be well on your way to being gamma radiation if that was the case.

And since ED doesn't render the black hole itself, what you're looking at isn't beyond the event horizon, but rather a hugely magnified and distorted section of the starfield directly behind the distortion field from your perspective. There'll often be a few stars in there.

Hopefully someday we'll be able to observe the accretion disk itself, a la Interstellar.
Click to expand...

I love exploring and would love it if Frontier could add the black hole itself to these effects. So far all black holes have in the game is the gravitational lensing effect.. but no matter how close we get, there is no event horizon. We should be able to see the periphery of the event horizon where no light can escape and all we would see is a black ball and its surrounding gravitational lensing effect.

Id love to go visiting black holes if we could see the black region where no light can escape and compare that size with other black holes we find.. Hopefully Frontier know that even though black holes bend light its impossible for bent light to hit the lense of our eye as though it came direction from within the perifery. Just seems like a black mass was a strange thing to forget? But I got my fingers crossed :)
 
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