Engineers The problem with RNG upgrades...

Well, regarding this one area of the 2.1 update, this morning I decided to upgrade the FSD for my Python.
After delivering the meta-alloy to felicity and then learning what was required, I researched where to find the materials, and scans, and mat drops. After around 8 hours I had successfully upgraded the FSD at level 1. This gave me 'nearly' an extra light year of jump range.
Then in order to unlock level 2 I then needed to deliberately waste (more mats scans etc) two more rolls on two other modules.
And next for the level 2 FSD upgrade I require everything that was required for the level 1 upgrade plus mine some unpronounceable mineral. Oh man....mining :(

So make what you will of that ?

Question is, how many people will simply not posses the inclination to do this? And as the op mentioned, some do not have this abundance of time.

Flimley

Or you could have just given her around 500k worth of exploration data, which you get paid for, and instantly go to grade 3 without wasting any materials. Though for that I would wish she would mention that it's an option. It is a lot more viable that way, because in the process of honking those systems, I did collect a nice supply of uncommon and rare materials from all the wreckage I came across. As for Praesodymium, along with everything else needed for the recipes, it is given out as mission rewards from factions as well, so you don't need to mine if you don't want to. As for the blueprints that don't need commodities, the engineer's own planet usually has the required SRV mats in abundance. Tod for instance is sitting on a planet rich with molybdenum and selenium, among other things.

I think people really want to get the engineers as fast as they can, and they burn themselves out doing it. I get them up whenever I have the materials and the incliniation, they are not going anywhere.
 
Through vehicle testing we find that part B has better wet grip but comes at the cost of worse dry handling and tread chunking at high speed when compared to the Control.
(So that's one benefit and two disadvantages, right up to now it kinda follows the 2.1 mod method, but here's where it changes)
At this point we review the testing, see what we have learned and take the next step, working out what added the improvement and avoiding the disadvantages.

What we DON'T do is:
- Forget everything we've learnt and start from scratch (re-roll) with the same possible outcomes
- Change the production variant to use the development tread in the hope that the next round of testing keeps the benefits but changes the disadvantages
- Charge the end consumer for the very expensive privilege of carrying out development
(emphasis mine)

Brilliant input, buddy! Thanks for this :)

Perhaps another option might be to narrow the percentages for every consecutive roll after the first: bring down the upper limit of negative effects, and increase the lower limit of positive ones; thereby providing a good simulation of how a real-life engineer goes through a constant feedback loop to provide better results. This would still require us players to spend a good amount of time farming materials and components to roll the dice, but it would cut down grinding time and RNG sucktacular-ness when rolling said dice.

If it's ok with you I'd like to add this bit, with your name on it, to the OP as a viable alternative to the currently horrible design implmentation.
 
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the problem with RNG upgrades is that people who spend 10 times as much time on the forums as they do in the game use it as an excuse for something to complain about.

I gaurentee everyone complaining about the RNG hasn't even taken the time to try rolling any lvl 3/4/5 recipes, they have already decided the system is broken and have decided to use their time complaining on the forums instead of playing the game the way it has been designed.
 
the problem with RNG upgrades is that people who spend 10 times as much time on the forums as they do in the game use it as an excuse for something to complain about.

I gaurentee everyone complaining about the RNG hasn't even taken the time to try rolling any lvl 3/4/5 recipes, they have already decided the system is broken and have decided to use their time complaining on the forums instead of playing the game the way it has been designed.

Two things:

Firstly, I wouldn't dare presume to know how other people spend their time (it would be very nice of you if you didn't either): maybe some of them spend more time on the forums than rolling lvl 3/4/5 recipes, maybe they don't, and maybe they have spent the weekend doing both.
Secondly, please try to keep things constructive. I chose my words and arguments carefully with the intent to draw in rational discourse, not a flame war.

Thank you for taking the time to bump my post. And for allowing me the opportunity to shamelessly bump it myself. Have a good day, sir.
 
What frustrates me is credits have become worthless...

Every profession in the game nets you some credits... so say you like bounty hunting... the reward is credits... you like mining you say?... again rewarded with credits..

So we do the profession we enjoy and play the game in the manner we enjoy to get CREDITS....

but now those credits somehow mean nothing... why can we not do what we enjoy in the game to earn credits... and use those credits at the engineers?


I mean if I go to west coast customs to PIMP MY RIDE... they tell me ye, here's what it will cost... and they source the materials.

I would be pretty cheesed off if I went to a mechanic or tuner and they said... sure, I'll mod your car... but first you need to trawl scrapyards and yardsales to get me some tinkering goodies... I am an IT professional... I have no clue where to go look in a scrapyard for an alternator or dumpvalve for a turbo...

the same applies in game, I am a Trader I dont want to be forced to play the game in a manner that I DO NOT FIND FUN.. just to get an engineer mod...


BUT COLD... you can just not bother with engineer upgrades.... you say? Uhm, nope... it has gotten to the point now where its mod your ship or get smoked in 5-30 seconds after an interdiction.

so we are forced into doing things that we dont enjoy just to be on par with the rest of the galaxy....... that sounds more like a job than a game

what has happened is multiple forms of currency is being added to the game to cover different aspects of the game (mats only apply to engineers etc) now..... please learn from other games and online games... having many forms of currency does not work the way it does on paper... I have gone for the ride and learnt this from Blizzard when playing WoW where they figured out its bad and moved away from it... dont make me endure the process of you learning this too the hard way too...


Frontier, please let us play a game... and not try use employer motivation tactics to take part in what you think will be fun on paper....

looking at a spreadsheet of all the required mats for all the different upgrades is ridiculous... there is just too much.... why can't we do something to help the engineer perform our mod... like them giving us a mission to the lines of... I have this errand for you... if you complete this favour I will mod your part as payment.... that creates a simple steady progression in the form of goal -> destination -> Reward... not aimless fumbling about to get rng material drops just to be used in an rng upgrade roll (compounded rng is a no no)


at the end, if your intent was for us to get these mats as we go about our lives.. then ok... but at the moment its MOD OR DIE with 90% of the npc's having an insatiable bloodlust and modded to the nine.

introduce a power creep.... not a power leap!

/rant
 
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What frustrates me is credits have become worthless...

Every profession in the game nets you some credits... so say you like bounty hunting... the reward is credits... you like mining you say?... again rewarded with credits..

So we do the profession we enjoy and play the game in the manner we enjoy to get CREDITS....



/rant

And materials. You do BH, the destroyed ship drops the materials you need for crafting. You mine something, it drops materials. You do a salvage run on a planet, you get materials. You do ANY trade mission, you can get materials or commodities needed for crafting. You do exploration, you definitely get materials, as nearly every wreckage USS is a treasure trove.

The materials are not hard to get, or arduous, if you actually take the time and read the hints. Some of them can actually be bought with your CREDITS. Not all commodities are reward exclusive, many are produced and sold by stations across the universe.
 
And materials. You do BH, the destroyed ship drops the materials you need for crafting. You mine something, it drops materials. You do a salvage run on a planet, you get materials. You do ANY trade mission, you can get materials or commodities needed for crafting. You do exploration, you definitely get materials, as nearly every wreckage USS is a treasure trove.

The problem is that these different activities drop DIFFERENT materials. So you can't just continue to do what you want to do, you have to do very specific activities to get certain materials. Assuming you don't enjoy absolutely every aspect of Elite that means you need to do things you don't enjoy doing. Repeatedly. Which is the very definition of grinding in game terminology.
 
The problem is that these different activities drop DIFFERENT materials. So you can't just continue to do what you want to do, you have to do very specific activities to get certain materials. Assuming you don't enjoy absolutely every aspect of Elite that means you need to do things you don't enjoy doing. Repeatedly. Which is the very definition of grinding in game terminology.

Guess then the problem is that I do enjoy doing most activities (except maybe for mining). And you make it sound like you need millions of tons of all these things to craft. Is it really such a "grind" to get 10 tons of Samarium? That gives you 5 retries on a recipe. Unless you are a serious min maxer, in those 5 rolls you will get what you want. Unless of course you go for the 6-10% special weapon effects, in that case wait until the favor system is implemented, and then you won't have to grind.
 
Howdy folks

My intention is to address only one of the many new features in 2.1: the RNG (random number generator, for non-programmers) behind engineer-driven module upgrades. So here I go...

Firstly it feels very lazy (to me) that exceptionally specialized engineers in the game cannot define, with any modicum of precision, what the effects of a module upgrade will be. If the goal was to aim for realism, I dare say this is a miserable failure. These are supposed to be 30 ultra-specialized engineers in a galaxy with trillions of people, and quite possible billions of them engineers themselves. The exceptionally high quality of the work of these 30 masters of their craft should put them on-par with the likes the people at NASA or CERN here on 2016 Earth, but in this game they seem more like the kind of mechanics you'd find in a run-of-the-mill-backwater-planet's bicycle repair shop.

In the real world when you find yourself in need of a specialized engineer, and said professional asks that you provide the materials to complete the job, he/she will usually mention characteristics like the purity needed, clarity, strength, flexibility, tension, and so on. And if for some reason they're not easy to find, said engineer (the good ones anyway) will either ask you for more resources so he/she can get the source materials up to spec or will point you in the direction of someone who can. Regardless of how it's done, the finished job will rarely have such wildly varying results as the ones produced by the so-called "engineers" in this game. Do you think the Space Shuttle would fly straight if one of its rocket engines produced 10% less thrust than the other?

In the virtual world mechanics like RNG crafting are usually a source of much grief, particularly for those of us with real world lives (families, friends, jobs and careers), since the system can only be defeated by spending spectacularly long amounts of time grinding away in search of good rolls and supplies (the last roll was awful? well too bad, your materials are gone, off to the grind again). What makes the case of Elite Dangerous 2.1 worse, is the amount of upgrades available for such a large amount of modules and ships.

Image, for the sake of argument, that the RNG takes 1 of a maximum of 5 possible numbers every time the dice roll, and that the RNG cannot roll any of the previously selected numbers. This means it would take at most 5! (or 120) rolls of the dice to get the top score. For the sake of simplicity, I'll refer only to the average amount of rolls/materials needed, which is half that: 60.

If faster thrusters were the goal, you're in luck: farm ~60X times the materials needed and you will, after ~60 rolls, get what you want. If you're after two module upgrades... well, your job just became twice the hassle: you'll need ~120X as many materials and just as many rolls to get both modules with top or close to top-notch stats. There are a total of 8 Core Modules of which, I think, only 4 are worth the trouble of upgrading: FSD, Thrusters, Power Plant and Power Distributor (if any of you dear readers has a soft spot for Sensors, Life Support, or Fuel Tanks, please forgive me I meant no offense - and yes, I'm completely ignoring bulk heads, again, sorry).

Speaking of time... after grinding away what little free time you have looking for materials (granted, not all are hard to find), you have to factor in the seconds it takes for the engineer to roll the dice. It's an animation that takes about 3-5 seconds per roll. So for the simple example above, just rolling the dice 60 times would take 3-to-5 minutes of clicking and lightning fast reflexes to not pass up a good roll. There are also upgrades for non-core modules like Shield Generators, Shield Cells, FSD Interdictors and so on, so you can see how this whole process can get very tedious extremely fast.

Now the reality is that the RNG doesn't have a pool of only 5 numbers to pick from, it has a lot more: if you're in luck it's a 1-byte data type (C++ unsigned char) with 255 values in the pool. If FDev was particularly mischievous (which I can't confirm or deny, I haven't seen the code) they could be using a 2-byte data type (C++ short int) with 65,535 possible values in the pool, or worse, a regular sized 4-byte data type (C++ int) which would have 4,294,967,295 values in the pool. As if that wasn't bad enough, and if this works like any other RNG algorithm out there, it can and will roll any of the previously selected numbers. Which means we're talking to N-to-the-power-of-N combinations... now you get to multiply that for number of positive and negative effects listed in the recipe and out to farm we go! Yay! Fun! Not...

In conclusion, this is a horrible system, and while I do not wish to offend anyone at Frontier Developments, I would like to point out that whoever thought this would be a good gameplay mechanic deserves the equivalent of a Razzie award for Game Design.



PS: I do sincerely apologize if anything I wrote here offends you, dear reader. If you would like me to rephrase some of it (hopefully not all of it), please don't hesitate to ask me via private message or through a public reply. I will get to it as soon as I possibly can.

Of course they're the mechanics you'd find on a backwater planet, do you honestly think some highly praised engineer is going to be contacting pilots for commissions? Of course not! All the good engineers are either with Pranav Antal or getting paid up the yin yang with Li Yong Rui. You have no one to blame but yourself for having such high expectations of these people perhaps if they had the equipment that Antal or Rui's engineers had to work with they could do a better job, but for now they're just trying to eek out an existence getting contracts from ungrateful pilots even though they know full well the risks they're taking.
 
Guess then the problem is that I do enjoy doing most activities (except maybe for mining). And you make it sound like you need millions of tons of all these things to craft. Is it really such a "grind" to get 10 tons of Samarium? That gives you 5 retries on a recipe. Unless you are a serious min maxer, in those 5 rolls you will get what you want. Unless of course you go for the 6-10% special weapon effects, in that case wait until the favor system is implemented, and then you won't have to grind.

Finding the exact material I want (from 50+ variants!) on a planet would take me weeks, unless I cheated and went online to find exactly where it is most likely to drop. Assuming I do this I will still likely need to drive around on a planets surface for hours, shooting at rocks, hoping for a lucky spawn. And then the same again for mining, assuming I know exactly what type of ring system I should go to.

And then I have to repeat this process ad nauseam in order to rank up with the engineer of my choice, assuming I am not overly concerned by the results of the frankly insulting RNG roll that occurs AFTER I have spent hours looking for materials.

In the style of comic book guy: "Worst. Gameplay. Ever."
 
And materials. You do BH, the destroyed ship drops the materials you need for crafting. You mine something, it drops materials. You do a salvage run on a planet, you get materials. You do ANY trade mission, you can get materials or commodities needed for crafting. You do exploration, you definitely get materials, as nearly every wreckage USS is a treasure trove.

The materials are not hard to get, or arduous, if you actually take the time and read the hints. Some of them can actually be bought with your CREDITS. Not all commodities are reward exclusive, many are produced and sold by stations across the universe.

yea, But I had to buy a clipper and fit it to mine just to get praesidium (or whatever its called), then I had to fit a python with collector limpets, a wake scanner, srv.. etc making the ship less than effective in combat, I have a vid where my python was taken out by another python in 4 shots.

I literally sat outside jameson memorial and scanned wakes to get FSD data... wasnt quite fun

so to collect your materials you need to make your combat ship less suited for combat when the npc's are super modded and cheating.

I understand the game is heavily bugged and what we are seeing is not what frontier intended... but it's still frustrating.. Bugs I reported in beta are still not solved like the Corvette having an invisible hull at a range of 1.5km+ (its low lod is missing)

how does stuff like this make it into a live game where dying carries such a larg punishment
Python Multi Plasma cannon (Not My Video)
[video=youtube_share;5dHdsYrmKnM]https://youtu.be/5dHdsYrmKnM[/video]

or an eagle with MULTIBEAM :D
vzPBzzv.jpg


I also tested if I drop cargo for a NPC pirate if it would work (dropped 20t for this fdl) NOPE!! :p
INIA7Mf.jpg
 
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My main gripe and unfun factor with the component RNG drop is that:

- The list of components/data is unnecessarily large. There is more than 130 type of components (Commodity, Materials, Data).
http://inara.cz/galaxy-components

-The storage capacity (600 materials + 200 data) is awfully small in relation to the number of components AND the fact that components acquisition is RANDOM.

- There is no way to store Commodity but to carry them around in your ship (too bad if you don't have large cargo capacity in your ship)

I spent 8 hours this week-end trying to farm components I need for upgrading a FSD and the result is that I didn't manage to get everything I needed for a single Engineer roll BUT I almost managed to completely reach the storage limit. This is silly.

Either increase storage capacity OR reduce the list of components by a good 30%.
And add possibility to store some commodity outside your ship.
 
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I respectfully disagree. I like the randomness, I believe it makes every ship sort of "unique". Maybe you should try changing focus... I mean, instead of grinding and trying again and again to get everything at the maximum possible values, maybe just accept the random results as they are, and think of it like the "personality" of your ship. I believe this randomness is very good since it helps to avoid the tipical spreadsheet war, where there's only one or two possible options if you want to be "competitive". Of course it's only part of it, many other changes are in order but nonetheless I think it's a good thing.
And yes, I see your point that is not realistic, and I agree with that, it isn't. But I like it anyway because I truly believe it makes the game better.
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Except no mod should be a down grade.
 
Except it's not.
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I've forgotten who, but someone on the 1st page of this thread said he did end up with worse stats after doing a mod.

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Finding the exact material I want (from 50+ variants!) on a planet would take me weeks, unless I cheated and went online to find exactly where it is most likely to drop. Assuming I do this I will still likely need to drive around on a planets surface for hours, shooting at rocks, hoping for a lucky spawn. And then the same again for mining, assuming I know exactly what type of ring system I should go to.

And then I have to repeat this process ad nauseam in order to rank up with the engineer of my choice, assuming I am not overly concerned by the results of the frankly insulting RNG roll that occurs AFTER I have spent hours looking for materials.

In the style of comic book guy: "Worst. Gameplay. Ever."
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Re Samarium, that is very easy to find & it is very common in pristine metallic rings. Of course that's only 1 material!
And no it's not cheating looking it up, let's face it, if the ED human bubble were real, their would be databases available for where to find materials, some would be free access, some wouldn't. But the info would be there for the well explored areas at least.
 
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It seems that to go forward in this game I have to upgrade but using an engineer but that does not look like any fun at all..........I'm giving this game a rest.
 
And no it's not cheating looking it up, let's face it, if the ED human bubble were real, their would be databases available for where to find materials, some would be free access, some wouldn't. But the info would be there for the well explored areas at least.
Fair point, although I still feel that basing a game on the assumption that everyone reads the forums is a bit lazy. There are 100s of different materials, and very little clue given to where to find them beyond "mining" or "surface rock hunting".

I honestly can't begin to comprehend who thought this was going to be an interesting thing to do for anyone but the most dedicated of Elite players. I mean there is a reason you don't meet all that many amateur geologists around, and that is because it is a pretty niche field of interest. Why we should enjoy being virtual amateur geologists I will never know.

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It seems that to go forward in this game I have to upgrade but using an engineer but that does not look like any fun at all..........I'm giving this game a rest.

Pretty much sums up my feelings after seeing the first recipe from an Engineer.
 
- The list of components/data is unnecessarily large. There is more than 130 type of components (Commodity, Materials, Data).
http://inara.cz/galaxy-components

-The storage capacity (600 materials + 200 data) is awfully small in relation to the number of components AND the fact that components acquisition is RANDOM.

- There is no way to store Commodity but to carry them around in your ship (too bad if you don't have large cargo capacity in your ship)

I spent 8 hours this week-end trying to farm components I need for upgrading a FSD and the result is that I didn't manage to get everything I needed for a single Engineer roll BUT I almost managed to completely reach the storage limit. This is silly.

Either increase storage capacity OR reduce the list of components by a good 30%.
And add possibility to store some commodity outside your ship.

I say remove commodity requirements from engineer upgrades entirely, and replace the global material storage limit with a per-material limit (of a similar magnitude as the global limit is right now).
 
I say remove commodity requirements from engineer upgrades entirely, and replace the global material storage limit with a per-material limit (of a similar magnitude as the global limit is right now).

That would certainly lessen the pain. You could grind for a little bit, then carry on with whatever you enjoy doing. I still think the whole system needs a serious re-think, but that ship has sailed I'm afraid. I mean 130 materials... seriously... did they even think about what that entails for game play or did they just sit down and invent a new material for every single mod?
 
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