Discuss the AI here!

[Oldschool]

I don't see anything in the known bug thread about AI. If this Super AI situation is intended, it will change the face of the game in a big way.
It's already having a big effect in several aspects. I don' think players are going to respond well to the overpowered Mods and the other actions referred to as "cheats"
that the some of the NPC's appear to have. Another annoying time sink. It's going to be a long road to recover from the damage done, if able.

 

[kalniel]

Even in a multi-player game, you can adjust the NPC difficulty. However, less risk should come with less reward. This could be done in several ways. Impact of your battle wins on combat and faction rank could be adjusted, you might receive a trade/ bounty/ exploration credit bonus if playing at higher difficulty etc. This would not affect the multi-player aspect in any way.

Yes absolutely. Skilled players can progress and amass equipment faster than less skilled, but all would be having a good time because they'd be facing an equivalent challenge. I am more than happy to play for longer to compensate for my lack of skill, provided there is no ultimate disadvantage for doing so - the tortoise needs a fair shot as well as the hare

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

I don't see anything in the known bug thread about AI. If this Super AI situation is intended, it will change the face of the game in a big way.
It's already having a big effect in several aspects. I don' think players are going to respond well to the overpowered Mods and the other actions referred to as "cheats"
that the some of the NPC's appear to have. Another annoying time sink. It's going to be a long road to recover from the damage done, if able.

the two threads i saw wernet titled about AI. one was called shield is made of wood. the other was NPC weapons ignore rates of fire. look for threads named like that.

btw i just looked at my name and i have heard shooting fish in a barrel a lot here talking about AI. it occurs to me, many may think thats where my name comes from - that i like easy AI or whatever. its nothing to do with elite. i use the name in a virtual world and i played one of the fishing games there and i like starwars thats where it comes from. nothing about master of easy AI.

 

[JerryLove]

NPCs of all ratings now have vastly better equipment than I or other new/vanilla players can get. Furthermore combat ranking doesn't take into account your current status and ship - say someone (not me!) got elite doing their combat orientated career but now is a miner/trader - why should they face elite NPCs?

edit for more: The concept of having NPCs spawn based on an individuals ranking is very 'meta' - instead it would be nice if certain areas of space were clearly known to be more dangerous than others - this could be in flux as events progress of course, but having the ability for a player to make a choice about what kind of challenge they give themselves is one of the biggest things you can do to improve enjoyment and a sense of 'fairness'. Skilled players can go to more dangerous areas relative to their experience and equipment. Less skilled can go to safer ones.

Or.. if you are going to base opponent rankings on individual players: how about a difficulty setting in the game?

Otherwise great fighters who just restarted are bored, and terrible fighters who have ranked by simply playing a long time are frustrated.

 

[Cmdr Alexei Jaeger]

The AI needed improving but it is just a notch too high and the AI Ships are a bit too maneuverable. I'm undermining in Power Play so mostly fighting high end ships. I'm finding that my A-rated Vulture (Agility 9) is being too easily out turned by less Maneuverable ships for example the fight I've just had with a Type 6 (Agility 3) even when I had 4 pips in Engines.

I've not been killed yet and have been playing for several hours a day over the Bank Holiday but a side effect From the AI improvement is that for the first time in 1,700 hours of game play including many long weekends in the past I've had to stop playing with wrist strain as the new AI requires much more extreme and repetitive wrist movement with the HOTAS to keep up with the AI ships.

Although I found the new AI challenging and exciting at first it has become physically tiring and mentally tiresome as the combat is too often turning into jousts as AI Ships are now turning on the spot too fast. I had my canopy shot out more in the last few days than in the last 1,000 hours put together. Also every AI ship now seems to have Rail Guns even the Haulers and a Type 9!

I don't want the AI to go back to the boring and unchallenging state it was in before but it does need turning back a notch so if you're in a more agile ship you feel it has an in game effect.

Surprisingly improving the AI may also end up making combat feel repetitive again but for the opposite reasons, extreme turning battles ending up in jousts and nearly every AI ship having Rail Guns. This is a very difficult balancing act for Frontier and I can't help feeling it would have been better if it had been introduced steadily over the months since Horizons to get that balance rather that all at once along side the Engineers update.

 

[frostypaw]

I'm only ranked 'mostly harmless' I think so I'm not in danger of that one any time soon, but I still disagree with the fact NPCs can have modded weapons but my commander can't.

lower ranked npcs shouldn't carry any modifications if it's working as it's stated it was designed - if you're finding them with them then report it as a bug. it IS already meant to be the way many want it to be - some bits are just bugged

As for treating the cause - I believe I suggested that - the root problem is improving the experience for more skilled commanders. That should be addressed without making the game other people bought less fun, and I suggested how other games and how E: D could.

Yeah I'm all for them offering to reduce people's combat rank.

 

[kepler84]

The AI needed improving but it is just a notch too high and the AI Ships are a bit too maneuverable. I'm undermining in Power Play so mostly fighting high end ships. I'm finding that my A-rated Vulture (Agility 9) is being too easily out turned by less Maneuverable ships for example the fight I've just had with a Type 6 (Agility 3) even when I had 4 pips in Engines.

I've not been killed yet and have been playing for several hours a day over the Bank Holiday but a side effect From the AI improvement is that for the first time in 1,700 hours of game play including many long weekends in the past I've had to stop playing with wrist strain as the new AI requires much more extreme and repetitive wrist movement with the HOTAS to keep up with the AI ships.

Although I found the new AI challenging and exciting at first it has become physically and mentally tiresome as the combat is too often turning into jousts as AI Ships are now turning on the spot too fast. I had my canopy shot out more in the last few days than in the last 1,000 hours put together. Also every AI ship now seems to have Rail Guns even the Haulers and a Type 9!

I don't want the AI to go back to the boring and unchallenging state it was in before but it does need turning back a notch so if you're in a more agile ship you feel it has an in game effect.

Surprisingly improving the AI may also end up making combat feel repetitive again but for the opposite reasons, extreme turning battles ending up in jousts and nearly every AI ship having Rail Guns. This is a very difficult balancing act for Frontier and I can't help feeling it would have been better if it had been introduced steadily over the months since Horizons to get that balance rather that all at once along side the Engineers update.

I agree.

First I was excited with the new AI, and I actually voted that the new difficulty was right. After a few more hours I'm not that sure about that decision.

Sure, the previous AI was a bit dull, but things are becoming a bit too extreme for my taste.

 

[h347h]

That is not practical advice for ships that only have two or three utility mounts, just saying....

Those ships can fit ECM and PDT in a mix which does indeed work.

 

[Zeta Legion]

I'm glad the AI is more difficult than it was. My one AI-related complaint so far is the AI's obsession with getting into pitching battles and jousting matches.

 

[frostypaw]

Those ships can fit ECM and PDT in a mix which does indeed work.

As long as someone tells you how to use the ECM or you just sit there and die not something i did of course *ahem* no sir. Early days!

 

[Ian Skippy]

So, have +-8 hours in 2.1, not counting beta. Started with my FdL (c4 fixed beam, 4x c2 multis), then tried the Corvette with double c4-fixed-MC and loads of laser-turrets, and ended with a super-lightweight iCourier (gimballed mc on the nacelles, fixed beam in the center). With my FdL and Corvette havent come close to losing my shields. In my iCourier it was close sometimes, but still never lost the shields. Have basically just been running missions and hitting USS, so no RES grinding or some such. Havent seen the bugs some have enountered, and the AI so far seems fine. Mostly run into expert and below, which is still very easy, and the few higher-ranked ones were a nice challenge.

 

[Don Alvarez]

Had more opportunity to battle the AI some more now, while I'm confident I can survive against it with some alterations to my combat strategy and some adjustments to my loadouts, I steadfastly maintain that the ramming tactic is nonsense and has to go. Five times just now I had two dangerous super-agile Pythons point their nose at me at close range and boost right in my face. Result: they killed themself beating their brains out on my FAS' 2k worth of armor. That doesn't seem like sound battle strategy to me, boosting a 150+ million credit ship and using its hull (the only thing protecting you from the vacuum of space) as a weapon. Seeing as how the AI can outmaneuver me consistently, why it does this and insists on suicide is a mystery to me. Work in some self-preservation. Ram less, shoot more.

 

[Envy661]

I think where it was prior to 2.1 was just fine. I still don't have much trouble with combat, but dear GOD is combat not an accessible thing in this game anymore. It's become Demon Souls' level of Noob friendly. I don't blame players from being scared off from this game right now, and that's a very bad thing IMHO. We shouldn't be scaring people away. We should be trying to bring them in.

Honestly though, if I were to change it, what I would do is this:

Make combat difficulty scale with NPC's Combat level. Harmless being a total noob to Elite being just that.
Next, make high ranking Pirate NPCs a lot less common in core systems, allowing players to go to larger systems like Sol, Luyten's Star, Saksak, etc. with smaller threat loads. Don't just make this a proximity to the starting system issue, as that's just silly. It should be a security issue. Like security ratings in systems in (And forgive me for saying this) EVE.

I think that alone could potentially cut it. The game already does this on a small level, but nowhere near the level it should.

 

[soma]

Make combat difficulty scale with NPC's Combat level. Harmless being a total noob to Elite being just that.

I think thats already happening. Maybe the lower rank NPCs are still a bit too good. And maybe only deadly/elite NPCs should have access to engineer upgrades. I think that would also bring the perceived AI "skill" down a bit (that and squishing the few obvious bugs that are currently being reported all over the forums).

Next, make high ranking Pirate NPCs a lot less common in core systems, allowing players to go to larger systems like Sol, Luyten's Star, Saksak, etc. with smaller threat loads. Don't just make this a proximity to the starting system issue, as that's just silly. It should be a security issue. Like security ratings in systems in (And forgive me for saying this) EVE.

I think thats also already the case. Systems have a security rating. Since the update, low security systems should be more dangerous, and high security systems should be a lot safer, have less pirate attacks and very good police response times.

The problem is the game currently does not do a very good job at informing the player that he is currently in a "low sec" area. I guess thats one of the reasons why so many people are unhappy with the upgraded AI: the game didnt really inform us that planning a safe route for travelling from A to B is essential now (that, or getting an escort).

 

[Titan1978]

15 MINUTES
Thats how long it took for a<Ahem> Hauler to get down to 25% Hull ! I'm in my 'Conda - but it took 15 MINUTES using all calibers of Pips and FA-OFF because I Just couldn't get him in my sights!
Going ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND in Circles throughout that 15 minutes! I wish I had Fraps on! I probably will the next time - but this Combat is UTTER Nonsense!
As to the constant argument that "So a small ship has to be in your sights" from some commanders - is the Point of a game to have Fun ? At 25% I said <Ahem> and jumped to SC.

The Engineers is a great expansion - this AI has turned the combat into a frustrating hair pulling Mess - FIX IT FD! Read the TOO HARD statistic!
This is NOT FUN!

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

perhaps the ai should be left a little longer - days rather than weeks though, but they need the superweapons fix faster. well i think so.

 

[CMDR Ellegon]

Those ships can fit ECM and PDT in a mix which does indeed work.

As you also need things like heat sinks and chaff, not considering shield boosters for the moment, it is not realistic to devote more than one utility mount to PDT/ECM if you have very few utility mounts.

 

[Titan1978]

perhaps the ai should be left a little longer - days rather than weeks though, but they need the superweapons fix faster. well i think so.

Smaller ships agility is too overpowered - in order to please the hardcore - the game stopped being fun - combat wise. Then again - traders have claimed the game stopped being fund trading wise because of interdiction and the fact they can no longer fight - again!
The AI needs to change! Now!

 

[Seonid]

in order to please the hardcore - the game stopped being fun - combat wise. Then again - traders have claimed the game stopped being fund trading wise because of interdiction and the fact they can no longer fight - again!
The AI needs to change! Now!

I keep seeing this hidden, secretive group called "hardcore" and yet nobody ever explains who they are, it must be a rolled up trouser leg thing. Speaking as a trader, excluding bugged NPC's I haven't had an issue. I'm just speaking for myself personally, rather than assuming I speak for everyone as seems common here.

 

[tnxgalaxy]

Hi Sarah! how are you doing?

Sounds like a great idea! I hope the implementation won't be too hard!
And I hope that we won't have to wait for 2.2 to have IAs going a bit easier on us.

Thanks !

Commander TNX
o7

Wow... what a lot to read!
The answer to the poll (in my eyes) is yes to all. Can it be changed to please everyone? Perhaps...

"It's too easy!"

Moving forward, it won't be. High ranks will use adaptive logic. Means the harder you fight, the harder the AI fights. Should hopefully mean a good challenge for skilled players.

"It's just right."

Perhaps, but I want to take it down a notch and throw in more tactics to create a more enjoyable and less predictable experience.

"It's too hard!"

I hear ya... Adaptive logic could dynamically downgrade AI performance to give players a chance. E.g. player is fleeing... Pirate AI could downgrade its weapon accuracy and boosting ability, giving the player a good chance to escape.

Well, just some of my thoughts.