No adaptive NPC logic please!

Katkon

K
I keep seeing references to adaptive logic, and it worries me. The notion that NPCs get harder to fight the more you fight, or easier to escape if you don't want a fight is just silly - and completely unrealistic. I think this also misses the much greater point that what many of us want from Elite is more DANGER. Knowing I can flee from every fight completely removes that danger. Sure, if we engage we get more challenge, but let's not "artificially" modify NPC behavior based on whether or not a CMDR wants to fight. It's unrealistic and basically just another way of softening up Elite and making the Galaxy safer again.
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I honestly believe the right thing to do right now is to keep it simple: high-ranked NPCs should be feared and a challenge to fight. They should also be more aggressive. People that don't want to fight them should self-initiate a combat rank demotion to increase the likelihood of fighter easier but less lucrative NPCs. Whether it's this solution or something else: doesn't matter. I recognize that not everyone enjoys the danger. But I genuinely don't believe adaptive logic is the way to go.
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SJA and FD: adaptive logic is an attempt to please everybody. But I'm afraid it'll miss the mark by simply reducing the danger of flying in space. And with no danger come no thrills. And with no thrills comes boredom. Heck, I like trading in ED. Not because making credits is fun. But because of the danger of potentially losing my expensive ship and cargo. Heck, even with 2.1 I escaped every fight and interdiction with shields in tact!
 

soma

soma
I somewhat agree with OP on this. My preferred solution would be to make the system security level a bigger part of the game. Make players well aware where it is safe for them and clearly show them when they enter dangerous areas.

IMHO it would be a great opportunity for emergent gameplay (high risk / high reward kind of gameplay: high profit routes through low security systems which would need escorts / a wing. Bounty hunting parties venturing into Anarchy systems, etc.). There is so much potential there, it would be a shame if it got ruined by an adaptive difficulty setting (or a "difficulty slider").
 
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Seonid

Seonid
Katkon said:
I keep seeing references to adaptive logic, and it worries me.
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How do you know that what you label as "adaptive logic" is exactly the same process as MoM labels it? Do you define it as neural, Bayesian, dynamic, fuzzy (etc etc cont. P94)?
 
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Weps

Weps
I think I'll have to agree too. Making the game more accessible to less skilled commanders or weaker builds should come from game mechanics, not adaptive NPCs. Identify the situations where imbalance occurs and fix those instead.

I can't help thinking about how on one hand the game brings new things to the table like weapons which melt ships in seconds or prevent players from running, but on the other hand the devs are now forced to remove them from NPCs and they consider turning NPCs into pacifists the moment a commander stands the chance of dying.
 

Obnoxious_Gamer

Obnoxious_Gamer
Weps said:
I think I'll have to agree too. Making the game more accessible to less skilled commanders or weaker builds should come from game mechanics, not adaptive NPCs. Identify the situations where imbalance occurs and fix those instead.

I can't help thinking about how on one hand the game brings new things to the table like weapons which melt ships in seconds or prevent players from running, but on the other hand the devs are now forced to remove them from NPCs and they consider turning NPCs into pacifists the moment a commander stands the chance of dying.
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Hey, guys, I've got an idea! Let's completely screw over every experienced T9 pilot by forcing them to be interdicted by elite Anacondas!
 
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Mohrgan

Mohrgan
Let's have a look at what develops before we put the kibosh on anything. FD are responsive and do want combat to be fun. I'm sure the Adaptive Logic will scale along with an NPC's rank. Let FD bring on all of the options for varied combat, if and when things go to far, they will pull it back. Just being worried about a phrase is no reason to stymie improvements. Save the complaints until there are problems, like Rapid Fire PA's and that sort of thing.
 

Ziljan

Ziljan
The problem with adaptive difficulty levels is that it can give a competitive advantage to bad pilots in things like CGs where combat blockades reduce your effectiveness. If bad pilots can simply opt out of danger, then they could end up being 2-3 times more effective in CGs.
 

VR Morgan Grimes

VR Morgan Grimes
Mohrgan said:
Let's have a look at what develops before we put the kibosh on anything. FD are responsive and do want combat to be fun. I'm sure the Adaptive Logic will scale along with an NPC's rank. Let FD bring on all of the options for varied combat, if and when things go to far, they will pull it back. Just being worried about a phrase is no reason to stymie improvements. Save the complaints until there are problems, like Rapid Fire PA's and that sort of thing.
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+1 :) seems a little silly to be making assumptions already, make suggestions about what you feel will and will not work but lets see what FD comes up with first, they have proven that they listen and respond to the community :)
 

shadragon

shadragon
There should be a variety of styles you encounter along with the variable of combat rank.

The "jouster" (prefers face-to-face strafing runs)
The "knife fighter" (stays close, no retreat, no surrender, no quarter given)
The "dogfighter" (good at maneuvering and getting behind you)
The "rammer"
The "coward" (runs when shields are down)
The "opportunist" (jumps you only when your shields are down and you have low hull)

An Elite dogfighter in a Vulture would be a handful.
A Dangerous opportunist in a Clipper would be a nightmare.
 
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Ziljan

Ziljan
shadragon said:
There should be a variety of styles you encounter along with the variable of combat rank.

The "jouster"
The "knife fighter" (stays close, no retreat, no surrender, no quarter given)
The "dogfighter" (good at maneuvering and getting behind you)
The "rammer"
The "coward" (runs when shields are down)
The "opportunist" (jumps you only when your shields are down and you have low hull)

An Elite dogfighter in a Vulture would be a handful.
A Dangerous opportunist in a Clipper would be a nightmare.
Click to expand...


Great ideas!! PM Sarah :D
 

Doolittle

D
Problem is FD can't figure out how to do it properly. It's either the bad example you are talking about or the relentless illogical encounters with them for no reason. It has to make sense, and currently it makes none. It should be dangerous but not to the point where FD has to magically appear NPCs just to give the commander some grief for no other reason.

Something I have noticed and many who are having issues with magical NPCs appearing might find some comfort in knowing FD is trying to figure it out. The NPCs tend to do this at all POIs on planets or space, even if you are in a area it took you 4 hours to get to and you saw no NPC the whole trip, the NPCs will still show up magically.
When FD ditches that mechanic and replaces it with something more reasonable and not so prolifically stupid they'll have solved the issue.
 

peteuplink

peteuplink
soma said:
I somewhat agree with OP on this. My preferred solution would be to make the system security level a bigger part of the game. Make players well aware where it is safe for them and clearly show them when they enter dangerous areas.

IMHO it would be a great opportunity for emergent gameplay (high risk / high reward kind of gameplay: high profit routes through low security systems which would need escorts / a wing. Bounty hunting parties venturing into Anarchy systems, etc.). There is so much potential there, it would be a shame if it got ruined by an adaptive difficulty setting (or a "difficulty slider").
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I agree, and this ties in to what I was saying about the game needing more excitement earlier on. There should be some systems that players enter at their own risk. That result in more interdictions and encounters. War zones, anarchy and civil unrest systems for example. it's risky to go in, but the missions and other factors in there should offer the player a greater reward for the risk.
 

kalniel

kalniel
Ziljan said:
The problem with adaptive difficulty levels is that it can give a competitive advantage to bad pilots in things like CGs where combat blockades reduce your effectiveness. If bad pilots can simply opt out of danger, then they could end up being 2-3 times more effective in CGs.
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Only if the adaptive difficulty wasn't very well done. If it adapted well then the effectiveness would be exactly the same - avg combat duration and survivability should be the same. But still, I prefer difficulty to be gated (and signposted) by area.
 
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lysan

lysan
I have no clue of how this work, so I can only say this:

I would kindly ask for a NPC AI that gives me a sensation of;

i) its alive
ii)its not a pushover
iii)it challenges me in my gameplay, so I don't fall asleep.
iiii) it rewards me accordingly to my effort.


ED is a game where you need to think, you need to understand the game, if you don't understand the game you can't be good.
To narrow the skill box is not the way to do it, everyone and his dog will complain if they can't be the hero.

Trust me, it has been tested many times. FPS games of a good quality lives for a long time, run and gun games do not.

This video explains the mechanics pretty well, FRONTIER you should watch it and learn.
don't bother with the title its click bait :D just listen you what he is explaining, don't watch the video, just listen.

[video=youtube;Fk8y_rQ7aew]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk8y_rQ7aew[/video]
 

Jypson

Jypson
Lysander lysan said:
I have no clue of how this work, so I can only say this:

I would kindly ask for a NPC AI that gives me a sensation of;

i) its alive
ii)its not a pushover
iii)it challenges me in my gameplay, so I don't fall asleep.
iiii) it rewards me accordingly to my effort.


ED is a game where you need to think, you need to understand the game, if you don't understand the game you can't be good.
To narrow the skill box is not the way to do it, everyone and his dog will complain if they can't be the hero.

Trust me, it has been tested many times. FPS games of a good quality lives for a long time, run and gun games do not.

This video explains the mechanics pretty well, FRONTIER you should watch it and learn.
don't bother with the title its click bait :D just listen you what he is explaining, don't watch the video, just listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk8y_rQ7aew
Click to expand...

(watching the video on mute and grumbling) 'Can't tell me what to do!'
 

We Are Groot

We Are Groot
Seonid said:
So what happens when a player with it set on "easy" meets another player that has it set on "hard" and they are both in the same RES/NAV?
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What if it were handled like healing lasers? If healing lasers can heal who is in your wing but damage enemies couldn't something similar be done? Say player A has it on hard difficulty and Player B has it on easy difficulty the NPC hits Player A with 20 damage but hits Player B with 10 damage. Player A is an ace pilot and can avoid many of the shots but player B still hasn't even realized he has been targetted and shot yet because he is dreaming about getting the Cutter. Player B takes evasive maneuvers and opens up fire on his friend by mistake due to him being in a state of panic.

Player A is already positioned behind the enemy and a few seconds later takes it out before it can do any more damage to Player B. Although this has allowed Player B to stay in the game with his friend who is obviously better skilled the end result still turns out rather badly because Asteroids do the same amount of damage to ships no matter what difficulty setting you have it at.

Had Player A seen Player B flying straight at the asteroid he could have said "Look out for that rock!"
 
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