Engineers Are FD basically forcing people to craft if they wish to even PvE?

[NeilF]

Until very recently, I was under the impression crafting was aimed at introducing variety, with maybe some limited improvements in weapon damage (but with large -ve's), so ultimately they would be "optional". eg: Someone may well have a 25% more powerful beam laser, but the downsides would be significant enough so it wasn't as black and white as it may seem.

If I've now understood how much more powerful weapons can be made, and given that NPCs are seemingly more dangerous, are FD basically forcing players to craft if they wish to reach the new "bar" that's been raised up?

And by raising the bar, I of course also mean the new more challenging NPCs. For example, while in a RES last night, it was quite obvious how much harder hitting the NPCs were, and indeed it was quite obvious how useful it would be to have far more powerful weapons/modules to try and get back even a step towards where we were in 2.0's level of difficulty (IMHO).

So I'm sort of confused where we are really. It does seem FD have created a new higher class of modules (for some reason) which are indeed more effective in combat, and as players will need to be more effective in the game, they will need to obtain these. But for what purpose? Especially (most importantly) when the method of earning them is basically to forced players down through the insanely simplistic point, click, repeat random gameplay that's been added left right and center?

I'm just a bit confused TBH what's going on, where we're trying to get to, and why we're going via this route... [where is it]

Sorry, all a bit of a mind-dump point to be honest... But oh well... It's Friday afternoon... Time for a pint after which it will all make sense

 

[NMS]

Until very recently, I was under the impression crafting was aimed at introducing variety, with maybe some limited improvements in weapon damage (but with large -ve's), so ultimately they would be "optional". eg: Someone may well have a 25% more powerful beam laser, but the downsides would be significant enough so it wasn't as black and white as it may seem.

If I've now understood how much more powerful weapons can be made, and given that NPCs are seemingly more dangerous, are FD basically forcing players to craft if they wish to reach the new "bar" that's been raised up?

And by raising the bar, I of course also mean the new more challenging NPCs. For example, while in a RES last night, it was quite obvious how much harder hitting the NPCs were, and indeed it was quite obvious how useful it would be to have far more powerful weapons/modules to try and get back even a step towards where we were in 2.0's level of difficulty (IMHO).

So I'm sort of confused where we are really. It does seem FD have created a new higher class of modules (for some reason) which are indeed more effective in combat, and as players will need to be more effective in the game, they will need to obtain these. But for what purpose? Especially (most importantly) when the method of earning them is basically to forced players down through the insanely simplistic point, click, repeat random gameplay that's been added left right and center?

I'm just a bit confused TBH what's going on, where we're trying to get to, and why we're going via this route... [where is it]

Sorry, all a bit of a mind-dump point to be honest... But oh well... It's Friday afternoon... Time for a pint after which it will all make sense

I think they do not know yet where they(FD) want to go.

 

[Razorpony]

Until very recently, I was under the impression crafting was aimed at introducing variety, with maybe some limited improvements in weapon damage (but with large -ve's), so ultimately they would be "optional". eg: Someone may well have a 25% more powerful beam laser, but the downsides would be significant enough so it wasn't as black and white as it may seem.

If I've now understood how much more powerful weapons can be made, and given that NPCs are seemingly more dangerous, are FD basically forcing players to craft if they wish to reach the new "bar" that's been raised up?

And by raising the bar, I of course also mean the new more challenging NPCs. For example, while in a RES last night, it was quite obvious how much harder hitting the NPCs were, and indeed it was quite obvious how useful it would be to have far more powerful weapons/modules to try and get back even a step towards where we were in 2.0's level of difficulty (IMHO).

So I'm sort of confused where we are really. It does seem FD have created a new higher class of modules (for some reason) which are indeed more effective in combat, and as players will need to be more effective in the game, they will need to obtain these. But for what purpose? Especially (most importantly) when the method of earning them is basically to forced players down through the insanely simplistic point, click, repeat random gameplay that's been added left right and center?

I'm just a bit confused TBH what's going on, where we're trying to get to, and why we're going via this route... [where is it]

Sorry, all a bit of a mind-dump point to be honest... But oh well... It's Friday afternoon... Time for a pint after which it will all make sense

And this is why I stopped playing the game after being hooked since ED went on sale on steam this christmas. The whole engineer system was a big slap in the face imho.

 

[Altair8800]

The players are not just given crafted weapons, they have to work for it. Will need a while to get grade 5 weapons with a usefull special effect too.

So obviously you have to get along without agains the NPC's, whatever they got, which is possible as long as they don't use bugged weapons, which should be fixed.

If you can't deal with the NPC's no crafted gun is going to help you with that, even good rolls are not doomed guns of instant NPC death.

As long as playing the environment you can completely ignore the engineers, probably is different for PvP.

 

[theriverlethe]

I don't think the AI was ever meant to be as mindlessly easy as it was in 2.0. An encounter with an Elite-ranked pilot should at least keep you on your toes. Frontier removed engineered modules from NPC's, so they are no longer required to be on an equal footing in PvE.

 

[Razorpony]

The players are not just given crafted weapons, they have to work for it. Will need a while to get grade 5 weapons with a usefull special effect too.

So obviously you have to get along without agains the NPC's, whatever they got, which is possible as long as they don't use bugged weapons, which should be fixed.

If you can't deal with the NPC's no crafted gun is going to help you with that, even good rolls are not doomed guns of instant NPC death.

As long as playing the environment you can completely ignore the engineers, probably is different for PvP.

This I couldn't disagree more with. If you actually tested the modules on the beta, you would realize how insanely OP it made your ship.
I had no problem working my ships prior to this patch. I never felt entitled to have the game spawn me a free anaconda when I first started playing, so why is the engineer upgrades any different?

When you feel forced down the one path to get something you need to get your ships up to PAR, it feels like a slap in the face. Prior to this patch, there were many ways to a conda, or an asp, or whatever you desired. To a combat pilot, like me, these upgrades make such an insane difference, that it feels like Frontier just made all my ships redundant at this point. It's not FUN to a lot of people.

 

[goemon]

i fly unmodified ships mostly at the moment - and everybody does, who is working on modifying.

you might want to change your loadout, grab a small ship, and get used to the better AI.

engineering is optional, changing tactics (yes, running sometimes...) and loadouts is the way to go.

 

[Razorpony]

I don't think the AI was ever meant to be as mindlessly easy as it was in 2.0. An encounter with an Elite-ranked pilot should at least keep you on your toes. Frontier removed engineered modules from NPC's, so they are no longer required to be on an equal footing in PvE.

That is just a temporary measure afaik. Problem still stands.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

No, unmodded ships still work fine, at least as far as I can tell (haven't tried every ship in 2.1). Mods bascily just give you some more comfort and/or making your life a bit easier, but everything in the game can be done without them.

 

[Razorpony]

i fly unmodified ships mostly at the moment - and everybody does, who is working on modifying.

you might want to change your loadout, grab a small ship, and get used to the better AI.

engineering is optional, changing tactics (yes, running sometimes...) and loadouts is the way to go.

When something is way too good to pass up, it stops feeling "optional"

 

[Privata]

I had no isues with engineer mods.
I have yet to use them with my combat ships even in whent he AI had weapon mods

 

[NeilF]

The players are not just given crafted weapons, they have to work for it. Will need a while to get grade 5 weapons with a usefull special effect too.

So obviously you have to get along without agains the NPC's, whatever they got, which is possible as long as they don't use bugged weapons, which should be fixed.

If you can't deal with the NPC's no crafted gun is going to help you with that, even good rolls are not doomed guns of instant NPC death.

As long as playing the environment you can completely ignore the engineers, probably is different for PvP.

I have three issues with this:-
1) What do the improved weapons ultimately bring to the game, if in a few months most players have the key (level 5) changes they want? ie: The "window" has been raised, we've climbed up the 5 steps to get to it, and the view is the same as before!
2) "they have to work for it" - Consider how you used the word "work" to cover the gameplay introduced to "pay" for crafting? Has the gameplay added actually improved what you can do within the game to any significant level? Is picking up random things, in random locations, via point and click mechanic actually challenging or rewarding? "Work" seems like a wise choice of words...
3) As for ignoring crafting for PvE, I'm sure CMDRs would rather be doing more damage to NPCs with upgraded weapons than not, and ultimately seeing more CRs earned and less rebuys screens in return.

 

[Altair8800]

This I couldn't disagree more with. If you actually tested the modules on the beta, you would realize how insanely OP it made your ship.
I had no problem working my ships prior to this patch. I never felt entitled to have the game spawn me a free anaconda when I first started playing, so why is the engineer upgrades any different?

When you feel forced down the one path to get something you need to get your ships up to PAR, it feels like a slap in the face. Prior to this patch, there were many ways to a conda, or an asp, or whatever you desired. To a combat pilot, like me, these upgrades make such an insane difference, that it feels like Frontier just made all my ships redundant at this point. It's not FUN to a lot of people.

That is why I said that no one is forced to anything. Obviously it is possible to get alonge with the NPCs without having overpowered guns. You need to reconfigure your ships a bit for 2.1 and you need to learn how to run away if things get messy, which happens more often than with 2.0.

If you need to be on PAR on a spreadsheet that is up to you, necessary for flying a ship it is not.

 

[GammaZ]

IMO they introduced typical MMO powercreep.
Harder NPC-s and means to be able kill them fast again gated behing grind, sometimes completely ridiculous one (like those 200 units of rare good you have to deliver to unlock engineer).
Yes, for now it seems like something optional, but i think they will "fix" it in future...

 

[CaptainKremmen]

"Are FD basically forcing people to craft if they wish to even PvE?"

No.

 

[Altair8800]

I have three issues with this:-
1) What do the improved weapons ultimately bring to the game, if in a few months most players have the key (level 5) changes they want? ie: The "window" has been raised, we've climbed up the 5 steps to get to it, and the view is the same as before!
2) "they have to work for it" - Consider how you used the word "work" to cover the gameplay introduced to "pay" for crafting? Has the gameplay added actually improved what you can do within the game to any significant level? Is picking up random things, in random locations, via point and click mechanic actually challenging or rewarding? "Work" seems like a wise choice of words...
3) As for ignoring crafting for PvE, I'm sure CMDRs would rather doing more damage to NPCs with upgraded weapons than not, and ultimately seeing more CRs and rebuys screens in return.

1) Good question. IMHO it won't change anything, as you said, the view still is the same.
2) Well, some will call it grind, I just think about this as necessary nasty work to get the stuff. It's just so that players have a goal, something to do and work on, instead of flying to random places and see what might happen.
3) The crafted weapon will do a few more % damage, just look at the stats at the weapon engineers. Won't help much for those seeing the rebuy screen without such guns.

Maybe you can build an totally overpowered ship with 8 guns doing insane damage with special effects, that cause NPC death in 5 seconds. But before you can do that you'll have to get there without such tools somehow.

 

[h347h]

I have three issues with this:-
1) What do the improved weapons ultimately bring to the game, if in a few months most players have the key (level 5) changes they want? ie: The "window" has been raised, we've climbed up the 5 steps to get to it, and the view is the same as before!
2) "they have to work for it" - Consider how you used the word "work" to cover the gameplay introduced to "pay" for crafting? Has the gameplay added actually improved what you can do within the game to any significant level? Is picking up random things, in random locations, via point and click mechanic actually challenging or rewarding? "Work" seems like a wise choice of words...
3) As for ignoring crafting for PvE, I'm sure CMDRs would rather be doing more damage to NPCs with upgraded weapons than not, and ultimately seeing more CRs earned and less rebuys screens in return.

It is mostly doing damage differently. Not just more. There are a few things that are raw damage upgrades but they limit your damage per minute so you have often big trade offs. Like having a high burst damage build that quickly eats through the capcitor, or having a long range build that does slightly less damage, or a more efficient build that you can fire almost not stop but does less damage, and a lot of weapon mods add lots of heat as do the more extreme thrust mods. So you wont be able to really do a lot of sustained DPM with a build like that with out compromises else where.


This is all about being able to fudge your ship the way you want to play. It allows you to fly like you want.

 

[goemon]

3) As for ignoring crafting for PvE, I'm sure CMDRs would rather be doing more damage to NPCs with upgraded weapons than not, and ultimately seeing more CRs earned and less rebuys screens in return.

you set your own goals. i enjoyed in 1.5. fighting in my eagle, taking down anacondas... it would have been faster ("more damage") in my FDL.

at the moment, i mod my DBE, because i love this ship, and with some mods it gets very good at running away, while still being the amazing cool runnig, smuggler and it gets capable to take on medium ships.

the only rebuy so far i had was crashing my (unmodded) trading cutter on a high g world.

 

[Arjin]

Neil I replied to your question in the flop thread, but will copy it here..

Other way around I think, with the addition of players being able to modify their ships, that AI has been beefed up in order to balance that out. The AI has been WAY to easy from the very beginning shooting fish in a barrel to the extreme.

If the AI were this good from the start we would all be having a very different conversation today. According to rank AI should be, super easy to super difficult. Players should have to think twice before engaging, gone are the days of soloing a wing of 3 NPC's Master and above, that makes sense and is perfectly the way it should be.

We are playing catch up so to speak as the AI has already been beefed up, once everyone customizes their ships in time it will balance out. Like I said before its just culture shock.

Spoiler

When winter arrives get ready for the next wave of it's too hard wailing's

 

[Minoo Minou]

Nobody forces you to do anything... you should take a break, the game is growing hard on you apparently [uhh]