Players have forgotten a fundamental concept, and that's why they're complaining about the difficulty.

[Mohrgan]

Actually that's what I'd like to point out. I haven't been stalking you on the forums or anything but I'm pretty sure you're not filtering anything and just taking it all at face value. Try asking some questions, you might be surprised about what you learn.

We already have our spots to pew pew in, and traders have their safe routes they can run without worrying about constant interference. They just thought that that spot was pretty much everywhere, while flying anything, because the AI was broken until recently.

I don't accept that. It's just another way of insisting people see things as you do. I've read through all of the material and I've come to my own conclusions. Leave off telling me how to see things, and stick to the points of discussion.

I think the game should make room for the non combat types, and the warriors. There is no reason we can't have it both ways. All of us would be in the same environment, so fairness and balance would be established. No harm, no foul if some players just want to stare at then scenery.

 

[Pumabear8]

Come on now, invalidate my points with facts if they're wrong, don't just Ad Hominem your way out of a valid explanation.

I'm in agreement, a game would be rather dull without risk and reward, but who sets the level so that as many people as possible can enjoy the same game, hardcore want to beef it up, casual want to reduce it, no one seems to want to meet in the middle.

 

[TruffleSnout]

Some games can make themselves fun through interactive humor or intellectual puzzles too, but I'm pretty sure none of us are going to argue that ED falls into that category, are we?

Oh, I don't know. Figuring out a really well paying multi-stop trade route without the use of external tools can be a very rewarding intellectual exercise.

 

[Brysett]

No, it's a fact, I'm just calling into question their use of the word fun when what they really meant to say was "entertainment".

I can entertain myself by following a series of youtube videos until I'm watching ads for Malaysian jewelry recorded in front of bad cardboard backdrops. It's not fun, but it does keep me occupied for a while and on some level I can say I was being entertained. Fun involves either a sense of accomplishment or reward, and in the context of games the reward is given value by putting it in a juxtaposition with a sense of risk.

Some games can make themselves fun through interactive humor or intellectual puzzles too, but I'm pretty sure none of us are going to argue that ED falls into that category, are we?

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fun :
the feeling of being amused or entertained

 

[Pardot Kynes]

OH HO! Really? A mathematician who isn't familiar with the Prisoner's Dilemma?

I'm going to start you off easy with a wikipedia link. After you measure out your own rope and tie a noose in it with your reply I'm going to drown you in white papers to build a gallows. When you've walked up on the gallows and put the noose around your neck with your next reply I'm going to give you a hood and a stool to stand on by applying all of the white papers to gaming in general and ED in particular, and then you can finish hanging yourself.

Edit: Oh, that's right, I forgot the link I got so excited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_game_theory#Prisoners_dilemma

Ho ho. Did I mention I wasn't familiar with the Prisoner's Dilemma? Nope.

So, you've gone on wiki and looked up 'game theory', and found the PD. And then you've said I'm not familiar with it. There is - a little more - to game theory than PD.

Ouch! (that's ouch for you, not me - you silly sausage.)

Still waiting for the equations Smudge - if you can't type the quantifiers, you can create your own symbols and lexicon - I will understand.

 

[Mohrgan]

No, it's a fact, I'm just calling into question their use of the word fun when what they really meant to say was "entertainment".

I can entertain myself by following a series of youtube videos until I'm watching ads for Malaysian jewelry recorded in front of bad cardboard backdrops. It's not fun, but it does keep me occupied for a while and on some level I can say I was being entertained. Fun involves either a sense of accomplishment or reward, and in the context of games the reward is given value by putting it in a juxtaposition with a sense of risk.
Some games can make themselves fun through interactive humor or intellectual puzzles too, but I'm pretty sure none of us are going to argue that ED falls into that category, are we?

You're totally missing what a fact is. You could use a refresher on what that word means. I'm not going to spend another moment on this line of discourse. You'll just have accept that others see things very differently.

 

[Arry]

Risk vs. Reward.

It's finally coming back to the game for traders, miners, etc.... and people have forgotten that this is a fundamental, irreplaceable part of the gameplay mechanics. You want to take a risk in a squishy ship to get that sweet sweet high credit reward? Guess what, it's risky now.

Don't start with the "But mining pays beans, and Explorers are the homeless of ED!"

Yeah, I know, Exploration has been my main gig since combat was trash. Doesn't matter. Until the risk is brought back into balance, the rate of reward can't be estimated and then adjusted to fit. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that FDev is slow and does these things one step at a time just like combat oriented players had to deal with it for a year waiting for FDev to rebalance combat.

That is all. And remember Devs, games that challenge players keep them playing. Once it's beaten that game is replaced and forgotten.

Smudgy, you keep telling us; how you play the game. You keep telling us; how you want to play the game. You keep telling us; that we should play your way and failure to do so; is not playing the game properly. You keep telling us, how we should enjoy the game. You keep telling us; what we should expect, from the game. You even tell us; how we should evaluate, our own risk and reward parameters.

I have read the first 4 pages of this thread and see no change in your attitude, or opinion, on the subject matter here. All I can say is, I play for the pleasure, sometimes the challenge, most mostly; just to enjoy and I see, feel and understand; that my game play requirements, are different, to yours. Please except that, except that we are not all the same.

Sometimes you write some really good stuff here; sometimes you just ride a high horse.

 

[Hajile]

I'm still waiting for some maths from you surrounding game theory and your own theory.

I'd better forewarn you though - I am a mathematician.

Off you go. Go:



You did say it had a maths basis and you could prove it. Show me some maths.

It's funny cuz you accused him of being toxic but you're the only one attacking a person here.. if you can't recognize risk vs reward as an important part of enjoyment then I don't know how to argue with you either. Point I've made in another post a long time ago is who really wants to play chess against a brain dead child it's not fun.. if winning is guaranteed where's the enjoyment. Please keep your conversation to the point at hand and not attacking the person making a point... perhaps windscreen shouldn't have said math but should have said basic human nature, because it is that. Risk vs reward is the structure that every game that I've ever enjoyed has been based on. I would go ahead and say it's a structure that every game ever made is based on but I haven't played every game every ever made so I can't make that statement.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I don't accept that. It's just another way of insisting people see things as you do. I've read through all of the material and I've come to my own conclusions. Leave off telling me how to see things, and stick to the points of discussion.

I think the game should make room for the non combat types, and the warriors. There is no reason we can't have it both ways. All of us would be in the same environment, so fairness and balance would be established. No harm, no foul if some players just want to stare at then scenery.

It's not a matter of accepting or not accepting.

We've got plenty of videos of bugs, no one is arguing about the bugs, fix them.

Instant death interdictions, constant interdictions, cheating AI?

None of these have been substantiated. When asked for details there is always a serious problem with what the player was doing, what they were flying and how it was fit, where they were, etc...

There's been two examples in this thread alone.

 

[Pardot Kynes]

It's funny cuz you accused him of being toxic but you're the only one attacking a person here.. if you can't recognize risk vs reward as an important part of enjoyment then I don't know how to argue with you either. Point I've made in another post a long time ago is who really wants to play chess against a brain dead child it's not fun.. if winning is guaranteed where's the enjoyment. Please keep your conversation to the point at hand and not attacking the person making a point... perhaps windscreen shouldn't have said math but should have said basic human nature, because it is that. Risk vs reward is the structure that every game that I've ever enjoyed has been based on. I would go ahead and say it's a structure that every game ever made is based on but I haven't played every game every ever made so I can't make that statement.

Agreed. But he said he could prove it mathematically, so I'm asking.

This is risk vs reward - if you claim to be an expert in game theory, that is a risk.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Smudgy, you keep telling us; how you play the game. You keep telling us; how you want to play the game. You keep telling us; that we should play your way and failure to do so; is not playing the game properly. You keep telling us, how we should enjoy the game. You keep telling us; what we should expect, from the game. You even tell us; how we should evaluate, our own risk and reward parameters.

I have read the first 4 pages of this thread and see no change in your attitude, or opinion, on the subject matter here. All I can say is, I play for the pleasure, sometimes the challenge, most mostly; just to enjoy and I see, feel and understand; that my game play requirements, are different, to yours. Please except that, except that we are not all the same.

Sometimes you write some really good stuff here; sometimes you just ride a high horse.

No I don't.

You know how I play the game?

I sit on a mountain that's inside of a crater that's inside of a crater and watch the sun set.

Nothing I say has anything to do with how I play the game, it's just how the game is designed. Look at the game, don't look at me. I may be a bit sexier than Sandro but I have no loach, so you will not find any satisfaction here.

The parameters of Risk and Reward aren't defined by you, they're defined by the game. Whether they are acceptable or not is your decision. You can adjust the values of Risk and Reward, but you cannot change how it is calculated, because you aren't a Dev.

I'm not a dev, so it's not my fault you don't like the parameters. Nor is it FDev's fault that a lot of people keep choosing the high risk option and complain when they get what they bargained for.

 

[ShimEnki]

Fact:

Can't have fun without Risk vs. Reward. It's part of human nature. You can occupy yourself in an engaging manner, but you won't have fun.

That is a fact for you...and yes, please continue to offer us your individual point of view.

 

[Mohrgan]

It's not a matter of accepting or not accepting.

We've got plenty of videos of bugs, no one is arguing about the bugs, fix them.

Instant death interdictions, constant interdictions, cheating AI?

None of these have been substantiated. When asked for details there is always a serious problem with what the player was doing, what they were flying and how it was fit, where they were, etc...

There's been two examples in this thread alone.

What does all of that have to do with my points? I have made no claims on the difficulty level, or AI habits. My point is, if we can make a system that allows people to control whom they play along side, why can't we have a system where players can control the level of combat in their game? Just to appease the views of players with a different focus? That just seems punitive to me.

Let the sight seers have a place along side the combat aces. That's all I'm saying. We can find our challenge, find the risk v. reward values we seek, while leaving room for those with a different set of values.

 

[Pardot Kynes]

No I don't.

You know how I play the game?

http://i.imgur.com/0mnA1so.png

I sit on a mountain that's inside of a crater that's inside of a crater and watch the sun set.

Nothing I say has anything to do with how I play the game, it's just how the game is designed. Look at the game, don't look at me. I may be a bit sexier than Sandro but I have no loach, so you will not find any satisfaction here.

The parameters of Risk and Reward aren't defined by you, they're defined by the game. Whether they are acceptable or not is your decision. You can adjust the values of Risk and Reward, but you cannot change how it is calculated, because you aren't a Dev.

I'm not a dev, so it's not my fault you don't like the parameters. Nor is it FDev's fault that a lot of people keep choosing the high risk option and complain when they get what they bargained for.

>>I may be a bit sexier than Sandro but I have no loach

A loach is a scaleless fish, prob related to catfish (and I didn't even need to consult wiki), but what has Sandro and sexiness got to do with this?

 

[V'larr]

This whole conversation is rather silly.

The problem has been there's been inordinate amounts of risk for little-to-no reward. Quite simple.

To show my perspective further:
Minding my own business doing essentially nothing while seeking out particular materials over the last week, I've been attacked by a stream of Dangerous & Elite NPCs. (No missions, no powerplay, no wanted status, no valuable amounts of cargo.)
The challenge is there, yet what on earth was I gaining from it?
Being harassed and annoyed by NPC pirates acting like griefers, who are irritatingly powerful despite their supposedly ramshackle origins, yet apparently lack any intelligence or sense & thus madly and agressively attack any stray ship that comes across their path?
Sorry, that's not fun.
And if those NPCs had continued to be equipped with even higher-grade equipment & weapons, including ones that bugged out to be exponentially more powerful than anything we've seen in the game before - that killed my urge to play the game.
I would not be continuing to enjoy Elite Dangerous without Frontier being the amazing folks they are, listening to the full community rather than the vocal hardcore minority, and addressing the issue as quickly as they have.

The fact that threads like this continue to pop up ranting about how *awful* it is to keep the game fun and rewarding rather than difficult and unrelenting, makes me believe there's a particular sect of the Elite Dangerous playerbase who are masochists at heart and love nothing more than to be slapped repeatedly in the face whilst crying out, "Hit me harder, this is so WONDERFUL!"

 

[Arry]

>>I may be a bit sexier than Sandro but I have no loach

A loach is a scaleless fish, prob related to catfish (and I didn't even need to consult wiki), but what has Sandro and sexiness got to do with this?

I think it is called distraction.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

unmodded Skyrim

It's like... I see words. I see words that make sense, but when you put them together, it just sounds like screeching. Kind of like taking two foods you normally love, and putting them together. It turns out to be disgusting.

The screeching... make it stop...

 

[Pardot Kynes]

This whole conversation is rather silly.

The problem has been there's been inordinate amounts of risk for little-to-no reward. Quite simple.

To show my perspective further:
Minding my own business doing essentially nothing while seeking out particular materials over the last week, I've been attacked by a stream of Dangerous & Elite NPCs. (No missions, no powerplay, no wanted status, no valuable amounts of cargo.)
The challenge is there, yet what on earth was I gaining from it?
Being harassed and annoyed by NPC pirates acting like griefers, who are irritatingly powerful despite their supposedly ramshackle origins, yet apparently lack any intelligence or sense & thus madly and agressively attack any stray ship that comes across their path?
Sorry, that's not fun.
And if those NPCs had continued to be equipped with even higher-grade equipment & weapons, including ones that bugged out to be exponentially more powerful than anything we've seen in the game before - that killed my urge to play the game.
I would not be continuing to enjoy Elite Dangerous without Frontier being the amazing folks they are, listening to the full community rather than the vocal hardcore minority, and addressing the issue as quickly as they have.

The fact that threads like this continue to pop up ranting about how *awful* it is to keep the game fun and rewarding rather than difficult and unrelenting, makes me believe there's a particular sect of the Elite Dangerous playerbase who are masochists at heart and love nothing more than to be slapped repeatedly in the face whilst crying out, "Hit me harder, this is so WONDERFUL!"

Well summed up, and agreed.

 

[fennster]

>>I may be a bit sexier than Sandro but I have no loach

A loach is a scaleless fish, prob related to catfish (and I didn't even need to consult wiki), but what has Sandro and sexiness got to do with this?

I just spat my popcorn all over my keyboard, haha.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fun :
the feeling of being amused or entertained

Let's try for the FULL definition from that same link, shall we?

• 1 : what provides amusement or enjoyment; specifically : playful often boisterous action or speech <full of fun>
  

Playful and boisterous action.

See this?

That's amusement. That's what it is to be mildly entertained by the idea of someone asking to paint your likeness.

This is fun.

When was the last time you laughed, squealed screamed and squirmed while playing ED?

Oh, and please don't beat the English language up more than what's already been done. Poor lad has been through enough as it is....