Engineers OK - I'm a Convert!!

EValve

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Pecisk said:
FD has basically created system that resists a grind. Resists "best build" setup.
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I disagree and believe the opposite is true.

It forces a grind. Just playing along doesn't complete any recipe except SRV refuel, repair and ammo.
Since you don't have the storage to hoard along as you play and one day go to these engineers to see what you can bargain with you are obliged to hunt and track specific materials. You pin ONE recipe.
Doesn't get closer to "Grind or don't get it" than that.

Additionally it doesn't resist "best build" set-ups. It postpones them for the unlucky and hands them to the ones that are.
Opposite of rewarding time, effort and skill.

In time, we'll be back at square one with "best builds". And there always will be a "best build". It doesn't matter how exclusive you make it through means of time and RNG.
It's an illusive fallacy to believe so.
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
EValve said:
I disagree and believe the opposite is true.

It forces a grind. Just playing along doesn't complete any recipe except SRV refuel, repair and ammo.
Since you don't have the storage to hoard along as you play and one day go to these engineers to see what you can bargain with you are obliged to hunt and track specific materials. You pin ONE recipe.
Doesn't get closer to "Grind or don't get it" than that.

Additionally it doesn't resist "best build" set-ups. It postpones them for the unlucky and hands them to the ones that are.
Opposite of rewarding time, effort and skill.

In time, we'll be back at square one with "best builds". And there always will be a "best build". It doesn't matter how exclusive you make it through means of time and RNG.
It's an illusive fallacy to believe so.
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You know what's fun about science? It doesn't care if you believe that "best builds" are unavoidable or not :) Probabilities will nicely deny lot of people having best builds. And no, grind isn't forced. You don't have to grind Engineers. That's whole issue with it. You can't help it.
 

EValve

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Pecisk said:
You know what's fun about science? It doesn't care if you believe that "best builds" are unavoidable or not :) Probabilities will nicely deny lot of people having best builds. And no, grind isn't forced. You don't have to grind Engineers. That's whole issue with it. You can't help it.
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Mathematical probabilities won't deny anyone anything. It's the basic definition of a probability... Calculating the chance of getting a specific result. The more you roll, the more your chances increases.

You consider it "good" that getting a best build should be awarded to the lucky, yet without worry to the ones that genuinely earn it through effort and perseverance?

There is STRONG incentive to get Engineer upgrades. Be it, lore-wise, new content ( shiny little beams in different colors ) after a long time of repetition, the new AI, the incoming Aliens?

Set goal for Optimized FSD range, go hunt specific materials and make sure you hold on to those specific commodities ( make sure you get them last otherwise you'll get squished by a wing of 3 ( anaconda + 2 eagle's ) while hunting in your SRV.

If you don't, accept the fact you won't get it.

That is the literal definition of obligation. To get B, go through A. Therefore A is a means, which is characterized as an obligation to get B.

There's plenty of threads and videos to show you there is strong incentive to participate in the Engineer blabla. Including from FD themselves.
Refusing to recognize the obvious has a specific term.
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
EValve said:
Mathematical probabilities won't deny anyone anything. It's the basic definition of a probability... Calculating the chance of getting a specific result. The more you roll, the more your chances increases.
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Not really. That's not how chance works math wise.

There is STRONG incentive to get Engineer upgrades. Be it, lore-wise, new content ( shiny little beams in different colors ) after a long time of repetition, the new AI, the incoming Aliens?
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Strong doesn't mean grind. Do I want get Anaconda? You bet I want. I want to transport passengers and walk around in it one day. However will I grind for it? Naah, don't feel I want to. I will look for opportunities, and some of them will go good, some of them will go bad. Will I fret? Naaah. I will try to enjoy journey. Eventually I will get Anaconda. And there will be new story for me.

Same with Engineer mods. I will want some buff to my weapons. Do I will care much what kind of buff i will be? Not really. Due of randomness and chance, I won't build my ship outfitting around them. I will stick with regular modules, but I will hope for some good Engineer touch for my lazors.
 

EValve

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Pecisk said:
Not really. That's not how chance works math wise.

Strong doesn't mean grind. Do I want get Anaconda? You bet I want. I want to transport passengers and walk around in it one day. However will I grind for it? Naah, don't feel I want to. I will look for opportunities, and some of them will go good, some of them will go bad. Will I fret? Naaah. I will try to enjoy journey. Eventually I will get Anaconda. And there will be new story for me.

Same with Engineer mods. I will want some buff to my weapons. Do I will care much what kind of buff i will be? Not really. Due of randomness and chance, I won't build my ship outfitting around them. I will stick with regular modules, but I will hope for some good Engineer touch for my lazors.
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Please indulge me how the Bernoulli process works. ( You'll probably come around when trying to explain it to me ).

I couldn't agree with you more for getting an Anaconda. That's how I play, really. If you have a goal in mind and don't care about influencing and maximizing your efficiency involving interchangeably in different professions and activities is the way to go, and provides the richest experience.

If I'm looking for Polonium, which there is only 2 ways ( only one I can confirm ) of obtaining; Drive around looking for rocks, Mission reward. ( The latter I can't confirm ). IIRC ( and if my number isn't too far off from the post's reported value ) the initial chance of finding polonium in a rock is about 1.38%. This means that as long as you didn't find any, you are required to repeat the same exact process until you stumble upon it.

Now if I take Wiki's definition of the word "Grinding" in the context of video gaming I fall upon the following:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks.

The best clue you get from the game is as follows : Melting point 527K.

We know from experience these are to be found on surface rocks known as Meteorite ores.
The origin of this meteorite is non-existant ( or perhaps remains unknown ). There is no way to either locate or identify such meteorite prior to their RNG spawn on the ground.
This means they currently seem to spawn out of thin air.

So yep. Grinding.

--------------

Side-note;

You wouldn't care about the Effect you get? Even considering a significant number of them is strictly useless in PvE ? Unless Aesthetics are your only motive I'll have a very hard time believing you. On top of that I'd argue your inability to conceive the idea that someone might actually care unlike you. Which would in that case make you pretty selfish and self absorbed.
 
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GJ51

GJ51
Muffet said:
Well OP, how much time of the day you had to play? all day everyday or...?
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I won't deny the considerable time investment involved to get to the point where I felt I truly had a grasp of the entirety of the 2.1 upgrade and how best to approach it.

I do, however, think it may be the price we have to pay for complexity and depth on this scale.

Was this the best way to go about it? I don't know. I've suggested to FD on several occasions that a bit of incrementalism may be prudent.

Undoubtedly 2.1 has revolutionized ED, and there is a lot of criticism and division among the player base. Time will tell if this is going to be seen as a good or bad thing for the game overall. I just think it would be sad if too many players walk away without having a true understanding of the potential for great game play here.

When I first got into the 2.1 beta I had a lot of reservations and was really undecided as to whether it was going to be something I liked or not. Even a couple weeks into the release I had serious doubts. Making initial progress is very challenging but gradually the clouds dissipated and progress became easier. It gradually became more understandable as to what was relevant and what wasn't in the course of performing activities and how to prioritize what I needed to do to progress more efficiently.

I think that's the core issue most are dealing with. Initially it's hard to see a path to making reasonable progress. Getting over that hurdle is not insignificant, or at least it wasn't for me. Now that I've climbed that wall the path ahead looks like a LOT of FUN. I'm really looking forward to the next few weeks and probably months as we know more upgrades are on the way.

All I'm trying to say here in this thread is that I was a skeptic at first and shared many of the same criticisms and concerns that others have expressed in this thread and others. I am not criticizing anyone else's opinions or observations. All I'm trying to say is that I went from where I was to where I am now with a lot of time and effort. It was not easy and it may not be for everyone, but I found the journey rewarding and I now eagerly anticipate continued hours of the highest quality gaming I've ever been involved in.

I sincerely hope that as many players as possible have a similar experience, as I think it is well worth the effort. The complexity and depth can be daunting and overwhelming, but it is not insurmountable.

I hope that by sharing my experience others may be encouraged to soldier on.

Fly safe
 
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EValve

E
GJ51 said:
I won't deny the considerable time investment involved to get to the point where I felt I truly had a grasp of the entirety of the 2.1 upgrade and how best to approach it.

I do, however, think it may be the price we have to pay for complexity and depth on this scale.

Was this the best way to go about it? I don't know. I've suggested to FD on several occasions that a bit of incrementalism may be prudent.

Undoubtedly 2.1 has revolutionized ED, and there is a lot of criticism and division among the player base. Time will tell if this is going to be seen as a good or bad thing for the game overall. I just think it would be sad if too many players walk away without having a true understanding of the potential for great game play here.

When I first got into the 2.1 beta I had a lot of reservations and was really undecided as to whether it was going to be something I liked or not. Even a couple weeks into the release I had serious doubts. Making initial progress is very challenging but gradually the clouds dissipated and progress became easier. It gradually became more understandable as to what was relevant and what wasn't in the course of performing activities and how to prioritize what I needed to do to progress more efficiently.

I think that's the core issue most are dealing with. Initially it's hard to see a path to making reasonable progress. Getting over that hurdle is not insignificant, or at least it wasn't for me. Now that I've climbed that wall the path ahead looks like a LOT of FUN. I'm really looking forward to the next few weeks and probably months as we know more upgrades are on the way.

All I'm trying to say here in this thread is that I was a skeptic at first and shared many of the same criticisms and concerns that others have expressed in this thread and others. I am not criticizing anyone else's opinions or observations. All I'm trying to say is that I went from where I was to where I am now with a lot of time and effort. It was not easy and it may not be for everyone, but I found the journey rewarding and I now eagerly anticipate continued hours of the highest quality gaming I've ever been involved in.

I sincerely hope that as many players as possible have a similar experience, as I think it is well worth the effort. The complexity and depth can be daunting and overwhelming, but it is not insurmountable.

I hope that by sharing my experience others may be encouraged to soldier on.

Fly safe
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What's your secret?

No offense and I mean no disrespect to the religious, but you sound like a prophet.
Vague, describing some above natural enlightenment, through means which are obscured. Talking about the greater good *cough* *cough* bigger picture.
 
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GJ51

GJ51
Liqua said:
Cobblers.

I went into 2.1 beta knowing very little of the patch and found it enjoyable other than the interaction with engineers. What FD did was nothing new - in fact it was down right lazy, layering the reward (modification to components) behind multiple layers of RNG.

On top of that level 1 farseer had me mining for some commodity which I add (a) I F Hate mining as it's boring as hell and (b) subject to RNG such that after several hours of mining resulted in no return.

What FD has done is forced players to engage in multiple activities including those they may not be interested in, wrapped it in pot luck (rng) and think that makes for a good process ?

You do, hence your over enthusiastic post about people 'not getting it'

As 8 said before - really glad yiy enjoy it but I KNOW FD can do better
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I don't disagree with you on the mining issue. I was never interested in mining, especially when I could earn far more per hour trading.

The big difference now is that at least I have a reason to go mining if I need to to advance a particular goal of either building rep or getting a mod from an Engineer.

I don't feel like I'm being forced, on the contrary, I would describe it as now having some incentive whereas before there was absolutely none. I still don't "enjoy" it, but I'm willing to endure it to achieve a goal.

YMMV
 

Aewarin Jameson

Aewarin Jameson
GJ51 said:
I don't feel like I'm being forced, on the contrary, I would describe it as now having some incentive whereas before there was absolutely none. I still don't "enjoy" it, but I'm willing to endure it to achieve a goal.

YMMV
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In other words you're grinding.

Welcome to my way of seeing things. :(


Edit:
Despite the white knights that was a common complaint of Horizons in that the game was grindy but at least you could ignore it. (Synthesis) With engineers you can't and in order to survive high rank encounters you NEED engineer mods (more so if you're and average pilot like me)

Seems FD don't listen, don't learn, don't care or worse believe in it <shrug>
 
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Makya

Makya
Pecisk said:
If they will treat it as a game they have to win, yeah, they had to move on some time ago, because it won't get better.

Engineers, as anything else, is a *side* activity. Therefore it is NOT upgrade shop, it is not outfitting v2, etc. That's why you can't get that shiny laser. Forget it that even exists. Or don't, grind but don't complain.

It is done so you would enjoy that content time after time - not grind trough in one week. FD has basically created system that resists a grind. Resists "best build" setup.
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I'm not convinced you really believe what you keep saying but okay but that's your choice. You can enjoy it as you like. As I see it and as many others see it, the Engineer mods are a grind whether you agree or not. I can choose to play it casually or as a focused effort or maybe not at all but imo that does not change whether I consider it a grind or not.

To say that Frontier intended it to be played a certain way just doesn't add up in my book. Surely they knew that combat players were going to immediately jump on getting the mods because that's what good combat pilots do - always looking for a winning edge. If Frontier wanted it to be a more casually activity, then they would/should have provided a means for storing commodities that you gather along the way.

After a mere two weeks, there are Cmdrs who say they have level 5 mods on one or more ships. I myself have not collected the mats I need for even my first mod. So does that mean that I'm playing it 'right' and the other are not? Of course not. My point is that how I choose to play the Engineers is a separate issue from whether I consider it a grind or not.
 

GJ51

GJ51
Liqua said:
In other words you're grinding.

Welcome to my way of seeing things. :(


Edit:
Despite the white knights that was a common complaint of Horizons in that the game was grindy but at least you could ignore it. (Synthesis) With engineers you can't and in order to survive high rank encounters you NEED engineer mods (more so if you're and average pilot like me)

Seems FD don't listen, don't learn, don't care or worse believe in it <shrug>
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xXR34P3RXx said:
That's called Grinding my dude
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Thank you both for putting words in my mouth.

Have it your way.
 

Robin of Spiritwood

Robin of Spiritwood
The longer I play, the better I'm liking 2.1.02.

Even took the SRV out again, and drove about to replenish some simple elements like Phosphorus that were running low. Found a huge shallow crater, with 2 POI inside, got some platinum from a wreck, even found Yttrium. Wasn't really looking- and that's the key.

I haven't accomplished much Engineering. Got 2-3 ships with maybe 3 level 3 mods on them? Bought racing engines for the Courier- that was fun! Started to win Interdictions occasionally, then more often, now most of the time I can evade. If that fails, I can fight smaller ships, and win most of the time. If the threat is serious I can outrun it. The difficulty is more within reach than before. Fights are still to be taken seriously, & avoided if you don't want bills.

Did a few missions, and they're more involved now. Factions have a face, and a flavour. Pay is decent. Expanded out my credbed a bit.

Working on getting a FSD range mod on my Asp for some long range exploring later. Beefed up her shields too. Looking at maybe guns later on. Maybe mines. We'll see.
 

kilvenny

kilvenny
I actually have no issue with having grind or having RNG, but I think there is a problem when as you level up through the engineers because you need more materials the grind and the RNG becomes bigger factors. FD have come up with e concept of trading reputation to reduce the RNG on mod generation. However I think there needs to be some work done on reducing the RNG of acquiring the recipe items.

What I was expecting was as you flew around, explored locations you would identify materials which I believe happens. What I think would be clever would be that more you see the more information you acquire on being able to find the materials and that reduces the RNG at those locations. This would give a reason to explore but also take out some of the mindless RNG grind.

What do people think?
 
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