I decided to rant for the first time

This is a rant I posted as a comment in a thread but I thought I wanted to share it with the community. Feel free to not participate and bury in the forum graves if you don't agree.

Some people are just biased about this game, mostly due to the constant undeserved bad press this game is suffering from. The state of the forums and the lack of obvious and accessible documentation within the game (which is imho the only part really deserving of criticism) which perpetuate the, imho, wrongful image of difficulty and grindiness, confirm their beliefs about the game.

This is textbook confirmation bias.

This game is the best game ever and the worst thing in history depending on how you look at it and what you are expecting from it. It rewards researching and playing smartly. It rewards knowing what you are doing. The problem is, to know what you are doing, you have to research, experiment and ask people, which is the exact definition of counter-intuitive. This game has a lot of counter-intuitive mechanics WHICH NEED TO BE DOCUMENTED IN AN EASY TO ACCESS AND UNDERSTAND FORMAT OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME!

I'm tired of trying to do FD's work for them, trying to explain the subtleties of simple game mechanics which are essential to proper and consistent gameplay. This information is not exactly hard to come by but not obvious too, which affect the quality of life of players who are not perceptive enough to observe for themselves. A little hand holding here and there, especially for newer players wouldn't go amiss.

Detailed tool tips or tips and tricks notes deliveren in the comms panel, which can be turned off of course, would go a long way in explaining how things are done in this game. Most of the problems people are suffering from these days stem from not inherent problems in game design, as people like to claim, but from a lack of understanding of basic game mechanics on the player's part. This is not the player's fault, mind you. The simplest example is, the game should one way or the other, document how to cruise in supercruise and how to approach stations. But, no. You have to go on the internet to learn about the 75% and 7 seconds rule.

There are several basic concepts, understanding of each is needed BEFORE you can 'blaze your own trail'. This notion of 'I should be able to play however I want' is so ingrained and misunderstood, it leads to legitimate help offerings to be labelled as 'git gud' comments.

Learning how to move, how to survive and how to find things in this game is essential to playing your own way. No matter what you do, the game world is the same, it behaves the same and needs to be interacted with the same way. No matter you are a combat player, explorer or miner or trader, the rules of moving, finding things and surviving are the same. One just has to learn them.

No, you can't do 'whatever' and survive in this game. That's not what 'play your own way' means. 'play your own way' or 'blaze your own trail' means there will be no ultimate goals thrust upon you. You'll be able to choose what you do with your time in this game. It doesn't mean, however, that you'll be free to fly wherever you want, take whatever mission you want, fly however you want in whatever ship you have with whatever equipment installed and you'll be OK. This is the most ridiculous idea one can have about any game.

Any game needs to be learned before you can start to play with it. You don't play chess without learning the basics first. You don't go to GTA and ace your way through the game if you can't drive, you can only do meh. Well, doing meh in ED requires a little more time and effort than other games, so what? That's totally OK, AS LONG AS THE GAME PROVIDES YOU WITH THE RELEVANT INFORMATION ABOUT THE SIMPLEST OF THINGS.

Rant over.

Thanks

Edit: Disclaimer: I think ED is one of the easiest games to learn and be good at. I am in no way confused about actual things in the game. I'm sad and frustrated mostly about the apparent lack of fundamental knowledge about basic game mechanics based on the forum posts declaring the game unplayable, despite apparent player errors. I just thought 'could this be through a fault of the game?' and in my frustration, came to this conclusion. I know there are tutorials and generally enough knowledge, pretty easy to access, on the internet and through the game menus. How do you explain the state of the forums though? Where do all that misinformation and confusion come from?
 
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WHICH NEED TO BE DOCUMENTED IN AN EASY TO ACCESS AND UNDERSTAND FORMAT OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME

...

The simplest example is, the game should one way or the other, document how to cruise in supercruise and how to approach stations. But, no. You have to go on the internet to learn about the 75% and 7 seconds rule.

There's a tutorial linked on the ED start menu that explains exactly this thing.

@~5m45

[video=youtube;jCIloJa2vS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCIloJa2vS4[/video]
 
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A game doesn't get any simpler than ED, any simpler and we end up with tetris. Come on, what is there to not understand? You push forward, you go forward, you press trigger, you shoot. Mission board is a mission board, cargo space can contain cargo.

Gray out the START button, flash the TRAINING button, job's done.
 
I would say flying smartly because after all ED is space ship simulator, nothing else really.

ED is heavily RNG based game, RNG missions, RNG collect elements, RNG asteroid ores, RNG enemy ship spawn in RES
There is nothing to research in RNG its just RNG

There are 2 things I am aware of that rewards researching and are not RNG based and thats very few
1. Goldilocks zone of planet. If you research it you can cherry pick CT planets when exploring to make negligible more profit from exploring
2. Commodities prices and trading to find trade routes that are not allready posted in some site

This thread can deceive some new players with the research idea so they will do lots of research and in the end they will find RNG. That would be pretty frustrating
 
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A game doesn't get any simpler than ED, any simpler and we end up with tetris. Come on, what is there to not understand? You push forward, you go forward, you press trigger, you shoot. Mission board is a mission board, cargo space can contain cargo.

Gray out the START button, flash the TRAINING button, job's done.

Well...

If you look at the state of the forum since the release of 2.1, it differs from your stance on the issue.

A lot of people seem to miss the memo on a lot of things. Simplest bits of information on how to do things, how to choose and fit a ship for a particular purpose seems to be taboo and you get accused of saying 'git gud' to people for suggesting the easiest and most logical solutions to problems allegedly unsolvable save for FD dumping the game and building it all over again.

The main theme is, 'I tried something which sounded dangerous. I went at it without any prior preparation just because. I died in .6 miliseconds. This is unfair, game is bad'.
 
I know there are these tutorial videos. They apparently aren't visible enough because it seems a lot of the simplest information given in these videos flew past lots of players. I don't know. Maybe a disclaimer at the start 'If you don't know these things YOU'LL DIE. A LOT' would help.

People never read the manual and ignore any advice because it's "wrong", or it's "git gud" and other rubbish; they-said, you-said garbage. Vast majority of it is perception and a belief CMDRs should be able to march around as gods and when that doesn't happen -- because maybe just maybe there is an intentional learning curve and maybe just maybe the game intentionally doesn't hand hold and maybe just maybe it's supposed to be a challenge -- they lose their collective minds.

Yes, tutorials on various topics would help; interdiction being one of them as clearly this is just a cluster-<proverbial> as folks have simply never had to bother understanding what was going on, previously. But even so, adding all the documentation and all the tutorials in the world, won't make people use them. :)
 
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There is a manual (not sure how up to date it is). And the in-game tutorials also give good coverage of the fundamentals.

Most complicated thing about Elite is the menu system IMHO.
 
I would say flying smartly because after all ED is space ship simulator, nothing else really.

ED is heavily RNG based game, RNG missions, RNG collect elements, RNG asteroid ores, RNG enemy ship spawn in RES
There is nothing to research in RNG its just RNG

There are 2 things I am aware of that rewards researching and are not RNG based and thats very few
1. Goldilocks zone of planet. If you research it you can cherry pick CT planets when exploring to make negligible more profit from exploring
2. Commodities prices and trading to find trade routes that are not allready posted in some site

This thread can deceive some new players with the research idea so they will do lots of research and in the end they will find RNG. That would be pretty frustrating

This is one of the misconceptions I dislike the most.

RNG is there but it's not pure RNG. There are many factors which affect what the RNG favors. Specific parts of the galaxy tend to spawn different elements. Specific regions of the bubble tend to favor some missions over the other. Surface bases tend to give more of the engineer requirements for nearby engineers than other stations.

This list goes on and on.

There are methods of playing the game to have an easier time and the details are lost if you don't experiment and discuss these with other players. Being aware of the factors which affect how the game plays is somehow overlooked. There are people annoyed that having missions contracted leads to being chain interdicted by semi persistent NPCs. And they stack missions too. Like, duh! Why would you do that, if you don't feel confident that you can take the heat if SHTF?

I'm sorry. I'm in a bad mood today apparently. I'll stop now.
 
I spent three months watching videos before the game was released, so I knew what to do. If you come in cold, they yes, it is difficult to learn, but not impossible. The problem is if you ask the question on the forum and it is the zillionth time the basic question has been asked then people get short and grumpy, and say things like use the search function. Also if there was an oracle with all the info would people necessarily read it?
 
Yes I agree with you OP, the game is not hard if only you know the certain strategies and load outs.

Like flight assist off, which is said by many to make combat much easier once you get used to it. But is that mentioned in the game, no it is just a switch which probably most people avoid because it 'sounds' like it would make things more difficult, which is does for normal flight but is incredibly useful at the right times in combat.
But if I would not frequent these forums or youtube for ED I would probably never know that.
 
Some things certainly could be explained better, but many times I do wonder why many players appearently can't be bothered to find out anything by themselfs and they just label it as something like "impossible" or "need to grind 10 hours" whithouteven trying to figure out better ways of doing things.
And that are very simple things to figure out more often then not.
 
I spent three months watching videos before the game was released, so I knew what to do. If you come in cold, they yes, it is difficult to learn, but not impossible. The problem is if you ask the question on the forum and it is the zillionth time the basic question has been asked then people get short and grumpy, and say things like use the search function. Also if there was an oracle with all the info would people necessarily read it?

Yeah.

That's why I started a basics of ED series, giving a very small bit of basic information about things, one thread every day. I try to keep them is 'tip of the day' kind of short and precise. I did two of them so far and I intend to continue.

I'll be thankful for anyone who participates and expands the knowledge with their own. After all, I've got nothing to gain but things to give.
 
A game doesn't get any simpler than ED, any simpler and we end up with tetris. Come on, what is there to not understand? You push forward, you go forward, you press trigger, you shoot. Mission board is a mission board, cargo space can contain cargo.

Gray out the START button, flash the TRAINING button, job's done.
Actually every other game similar to ED is much easier AND comes with instruction booklets. lol But EDH would need a 500 page instruction manual to compare with the other games booklets.
 
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Well...

If you look at the state of the forum since the release of 2.1, it differs from your stance on the issue.

A lot of people seem to miss the memo on a lot of things. Simplest bits of information on how to do things, how to choose and fit a ship for a particular purpose seems to be taboo and you get accused of saying 'git gud' to people for suggesting the easiest and most logical solutions to problems allegedly unsolvable save for FD dumping the game and building it all over again.

The main theme is, 'I tried something which sounded dangerous. I went at it without any prior preparation just because. I died in .6 miliseconds. This is unfair, game is bad'.

edit. I wanted to argue for the sake of it but I decided I'm not trying to see it from another's perspective. Yes, I am willing to admit that if a person completely unaccustomed with computer games comes in, completely ignores tutorials and jumps straight into open, might not be able to grasp just what the hell he's supposed to do.

However, I think, as far as game mechanics go, it comes down to being lazy or not. Forum and reddit is full of answers, this is not sacred, protected knowledge, just use search engine instead of spamming. If the 2.1 AI is hard or not, that's another matter, I didn't have a problem with it yet, but I understand that someone who didn't train their reflexes in CS as a stupid kid and it's their first gaming experience since 1984, might get caught off guard.

edit2. Besides are we sure that info like 'thermal weapons are better against shields than hulls' isn't in the game? I don't read the descriptions cause it's sci-fi 101 knowledge and you kinda know, but it might all be there already : P
 
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Lots of blatant misrepresentation going on here. No surprise *cough* kofeyh *cough*


Personally, i d like the AI to operate under the same restrictions as players. If that is accomplished, I dont care how hard they make them. They could literally make elite npcs literally perfect and I wouldnt complain.

The one condition is: I want to have real control over when I meet them, and have to deal with them, and it has to be immersive. Currently it is not.

I think a lot of the git-gud crowd are mischaracterising the complaints of the rest of us. We dont want no-risk high-reward gameplay. Most of us dont mind elite opponents being extremely difficult. We just want some control over when and where we get that kind of challenge, and that control has to seem believable.

Having the toughest opponents in the game show up to rob me of 5k credits worth of engineering mats, 200 ly outside the bubble while being on no quests, not being in PP, and having no bounties on my head, while also being rated harmless, is just plain bad design no matter how you slice it.

I have NEVER seen a pirate under master since I came back a week ago. I v been dangerous, harmless, and mostly harmless during that period (I had support reset my combat rank on friday).

The constant illogical interdictions need to stop.
The bad "matchmaking" needs to stop.

a distant third is "make them use the same rules as us".

a nonexistant fourth is "make the AI a pushover to spite the git-gudders"

We dont need smartarse chestthumpers telling us how to dodge interdictions, how to high-wake, how to set 4 pips in shields etc. Thats not really what this is about. It doesnt help the matter that certain people refuse to read the AI thread, have no clue that we all moved past "the AI is too hard" and over to "the Interdiction matchmaking* is the real problem", about 2 days ago at this point, and just keep misrepresenting us as some useless crybabies.

edit: in interest of honesty: While I dont mind godlike AI if it doenst cheat, like I stated above, I do think the current AI cheats in a variety of ways. Its annoying, and it bothers me, and I might complain a bit about it, but like I said, its nowhere near as pressing an issue as the other stuff, nor would I try to get it nerfed into the ground if FD cant make noncheating AI challenging. It would just be preferable if it didnt cheat.

*matchmaking AND frequency
 
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There's a tutorial linked on the ED start menu that explains exactly this thing.
[video=youtube;jCIloJa2vS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCIloJa2vS4[/video]
Well it sort of does, but then it all gets slightly vague when the narrator talks about learning to push the throttle a little further and longer to reduce journey times. It's all a bit noncommittal, and the ETA display doesn't even get a mention. It also speaks of reacting quickly if you see the SLOW DOWN message, which as we all know is pointless advice because if you're on final approach to your destination and you see that message you are going to overshoot no matter how quickly you yank back on that throttle*.

I don't fully agree with the OP's overall assessment but there's no denying there's a definite lack of official guidance when it comes to playing ED. Once you've read a few useful tips on the forums or Reddit, and got a few hours gameplay in, most of it becomes second nature which is of course part of the problem; to veterans it feels as though the game is easy and self-explanatory but it isn't. That level of comfort and familiarity only comes with experience, and the initial push to attain that experience can be quite daunting due to lack of guidance. It's a bit of a Catch-22.


[SUP]*This isn't strictly true, and there are tricks to take full advantage of the broken SLOW DOWN mechanics under specific circumstances. I have a couple of videos that explain it but they need updating with new info. If I find time to do that I'll update this post with links, but from a noob POV the point stands. If you're using the "alignment" display as the FD video suggests, and you see SLOW DOWN, it's too late.[/SUP]​
 
+Rep to you Cynaqq for a well constructed post that I agree with entirely.

I even mentioned myself yesterday in a thread how so much more information could be given to the player in the tutorials. As a new player I had no idea about silent running, why would I do this? I could fly the ship through just general knowledge, watching movies and stuff...

That is what is missing in the tutorial - Logic. The logic of a human being who is living in the 34th century. An organisation decides to give a ship to someone they think has what it takes to be 'someone'. Why then would they pick someone who has no clue about traveling in space, smuggling, combat and all the tricks a Han Solo CMDR would need to survive.

Instead I feel like a person who really didn't give a stuff about space travel but I've been forced into this little ship and told never to get out of the chair. Personally given my real life interests I would be well prepared for the adventure of owning my own ship. I'd of been watching anything with space ship since being a child. I'd be a huge nerd knowing all the ships stats down to how many rivets are used in each ship to hold the toilet in place. Instead it seem I watched soap operas all day where the Blue haired princess gets screwed out of being Emperor and the plot line is always predictable...

I also however agree with you that the game is fantastic when you do feel at home with your place in the galaxy, behind the controls of your ship. The rush of approaching a planet only to be interdicted just light seconds from your destination - so many decisions to make in mere seconds in stark contrast to the quiet journey you'd just had... Unbeatable!

Yes there are some dodgy screen layouts I personally don't like but I'm a fussy, cantankerous Victor at times who just needs to learn to ignore utter nonsense when he see's it but over all Frontier have done a reasonable job of making a game that makes you think and learn - thanks... Might be nice to at least teach us whats on the exam paper though.
 
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Lots of blatant misrepresentation going on here. No surprise *cough* kofeyh *cough*


Personally, i d like the AI to operate under the same restrictions as players. If that is accomplished, I dont care how hard they make them. They could literally make elite npcs literally perfect and I wouldnt complain.

The one condition is: I want to have real control over when I meet them, and have to deal with them, and it has to be immersive. Currently it is not.

I think a lot of the git-gud crowd are mischaracterising the complaints of the rest of us. We dont want no-risk high-reward gameplay. Most of us dont mind elite opponents being extremely difficult. We just want some control over when and where we get that kind of challenge, and that control has to seem believable.

Having the toughest opponents in the game show up to rob me of 5k credits worth of engineering mats, 200 ly outside the bubble while being on no quests, not being in PP, and having no bounties on my head, while also being rated harmless, is just plain bad design no matter how you slice it.

I have NEVER seen a pirate under master since I came back a week ago. I v been dangerous, harmless, and mostly harmless during that period (I had support reset my combat rank on friday).

The constant illogical interdictions need to stop.
The bad "matchmaking" needs to stop.

a distant third is "make them use the same rules as us".

a nonexistant fourth is "make the AI a pushover to spite the git-gudders"

We dont need smartarse chestthumpers telling us how to dodge interdictions, how to high-wake, how to set 4 pips in shields etc. Thats not really what this is about. It doesnt help the matter that certain people refuse to read the AI thread, have no clue that we all moved past "the AI is too hard" and over to "the Interdiction matchmaking* is the real problem", about 2 days ago at this point, and just keep misrepresenting us as some useless crybabies.

edit: in interest of honesty: While I dont mind godlike AI if it doenst cheat, like I stated above, I do think the current AI cheats in a variety of ways. Its annoying, and it bothers me, and I might complain a bit about it, but like I said, its nowhere near as pressing an issue as the other stuff, nor would I try to get it nerfed into the ground if FD cant make noncheating AI challenging. It would just be preferable if it didnt cheat.

*matchmaking AND frequency

Even though I haven't really had any problems with the new AI (not been interdicted since Beta :p), I have to agree with this.

- AI should play according to the same rules as we do. Even when it comes to ammo.

- AI should not spawn based on player rank. AI spawn rate and spawn type should be based on the type and state of the system you are in. Player status (rank, ship type, relationship and so on) should then determine if the AI decides to attack or not. The AI needs to do a believable risk/reward assessment before attacking.

- If you have active missions, AIs could of course 'be sent after you'. These AI should also play by the rules, meaning that if you escape an AI with poor jump range, the same AI should not show up in the destination system before a reasonable amount of time.

In other words, the AI need to be believable, play by the rules and act as much as possible as real person living in the game universe (not as a player;)). They should spawn out of the system/universe, not out of the player.


This is easy FD. Just do it. :)
 
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