Engineers The Engineers is turning into a deja vu for me

[Varrag]

I'm only going to tell that I've finally purchased Horizons two weeks ago although I was refusing to do it all this time. It was like... what the hell, let's just get done with it, give those nice guys in FDEV another chance.

Epilogue? To cut it short - I am currently lurking around the Formidine rift. Yeah, I didn't even need Horizons for that. But that's how I felt after trying out planetary missions and Engineers for several days - I simply jumped into my old Asp and left all that behind

I doubt that ED is going to get much attention from me in foreseeable future. Because, at this point, I am really starting to get annoyed by their design choices and the general direction the game seems to be taking. Perhaps, after all, I am not their target audience. Who knows.

 

[Kummerio]

I dont know     the FDevs are trying to do. I got 40k reward delivery mission, then that stupid mission update message came and a Deadly Anaconda starts stalk me, interdicts me like 8 times, fires a dozen missiles each interdiction, modified heat weapons...... come on! That´s too much effort to deliver 15 water purifiers.....

What the hell are you trying to do FDEV? Lose all clients and go bankrupt???

 

[Kubicide]

Agree with the OP. Engineers offers nothing of interest to me the same as practically all of last year's releases. And I've given up as an unhappy Horizon customer and one that regrets paying before we knew what we were getting. Last years releases should have been a clue I guess...

Have to wonder if what we are seeing are limitations with the Cobra engine and the instancing/P2P model they chose. Maybe the content is quite limited and can't change much beyond what was in the game day 1 - it would certainly explain why the same core mechanics keep being re-used.

Best we can do now is wait and see what comes next, or debate this endlessly in the forums!

 

[Islata]

Amazing thread.
Great suggestions.

OP is spot on re: FDEV needing professional expertise regarding motivation psychology.
Learning and motivational psychology is at the foundation of current Western culture. The knowledge of how to apply it to any field, or any game has been perfectly understood and quantified for a very, very long time. It guides design at all levels; from novels to politics to movies to advertising to sales to.....

Anything can now be constructed to create maximum engagement, maximum product longevity, maximum enjoyment.


Dear FEV. Hire a pro and save this potentially magnificent creation you have given us. Personally, I would be ecstatic to have an ED sim with the heart of a slot machine and the soul of Santa Claus.

 

[Stagno Jones]

Well said everybody on this thread [up] This is the first thread of this kind that I've read that hasn't dissolved into bickering and name calling.

This whole thread sums up basically how i feel too. I have read from the devs that they won't listen to "whining" and this thread has done none of that,it has contributed some very salient and intelligent ideas,most of which I agree wholeheartedly with. I hope this gets read and taken into consideration.

I too would be very interested to hear feedback from FD on these kind of issues

 

[Ironwolf]

Disclosure, I am not a "game design expert"

And judging on how this game is implemented, I'd have to say neither is FDev.
The more they release, the less I want to play, in fact it gets harder to find a reason to click on the client.

We will just have to wait and see how it goes, hopefully for the better.

 

[NeilF]

But one additional complaint has to be the motivation behind using them. The only reason to craft stuff is to counter the power creep the Engineers itself introduces.

This is a very interesting point. The whole premise of The Engineers is to basically pimp up your modules, which for many will ultimately just mean their weapons being more powerful... But then what else? We're left doing basically the same as we were before, but with more powerful pewpew!

2.2? Seemingly doing more of the same, but with a figher to hand?

2.3? Seemingly doing more of the same, but with friends as crew?

Why isn't the effort going into what we actually can do, rather than how & why we can do it?

I agree so much with the OP.

I fail understand why they are taking the game in this direction. Is this what David Braben envisioned? His idea of an immersive and fun game? I find that hard to believe. So why? Almost every major update have been failures.

Wings - good, but very unfinished (buggy and limited)
CQC - boring
Powerplay - boring grindfest
Planetary Landings - good, but very unfinished
Engineers - boring grindfest

The base game is really good (but also has its issues, especially after the 2.1 update), but the updates effectively amount to almost nothing, for a lot of players, myself included.

I hope the recent slience means they've taken the time to sit down and think about the future of this game and where they want to take it next, because it really needs that.

I totally concur!

 

[EValve]

Why isn't the effort going into what we actually can do, rather than how & why we can do it?

I think this is too subjective. Just a play of words.
Any of the above can be formulated to be a how&why or a what.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

And judging on how this game is implemented, I'd have to say neither is FDev.

Ouch

 

[kilvenny]

Engineers I see as a building block to Thargoids when the ability to have a better armed/shielded ship may become significant!

The problem with Engineers is there are 2 elements of RNG, collecting the recipe items and getting the result. FD have suggested they will allow trading rep for favours to reduce the ENG effect to ensure the result.

In my view what is missing is the ability to do things that reduce RNG. There must be rules as to where the materials are, if a player finds a recipe item he knows one of the rules. If he finds it at a different type of location he has the second rule so reduce the RNG of the item occurring in proportion to the number of rules the player has. Say there are ten rules, if a player has found all 10 rules where ever they go that meets those rules there is no RNG. In other words collection of recipe items becomes easier the more exploring you do.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

In my view what is missing is the ability to do things that reduce RNG. There must be rules as to where the materials are, if a player finds a recipe item he knows one of the rules. If he finds it at a different type of location he has the second rule so reduce the RNG of the item occurring in proportion to the number of rules the player has. Say there are ten rules, if a player has found all 10 rules where ever they go that meets those rules there is no RNG. In other words collection of recipe items becomes easier the more exploring you do.

Another thing to consider is the fact that FD introduced over 70 new currencies to the game.

70+

That .. is .. insane.

A few games to compare:
- Diablo 3. Uses IIRC 8 or so recipe materials. 3 base materials [white, yellow, blue] + legendary material + gems [6 types that combine to make larger gems]
- Path of Exile. Uses around 15 or so reciepe materials. Each material combines together to make the next tier up.
- WoW. Long time since I played but there's IIRC 6 or so trades you can work on. Each trade uses 3-4 base materials and you make the higher tiers with mats from other trades.

It's just insane to think that 70+ brings something to the game other than to turn it into a spreadsheet!

 

[Varrag]

And judging on how this game is implemented, I'd have to say neither is FDev.

They surely know how to make great games. For very different audience than they've attracted here, though.

What I think is that with ED they might have bitten off more than they could chew. You can't simply transfer gameplay mechanics from games such as Kinectimals or LostWinds into ED and hope that the players will be happy. ED has brought them out of their comfort zone and it is quite obvious to me that they are struggling to handle this game and its playerbase.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Engineers I see as a building block to Thargoids when the ability to have a better armed/shielded ship may become significant!

The problem with Engineers is there are 2 elements of RNG, collecting the recipe items and getting the result. FD have suggested they will allow trading rep for favours to reduce the ENG effect to ensure the result.

In my view what is missing is the ability to do things that reduce RNG. There must be rules as to where the materials are, if a player finds a recipe item he knows one of the rules. If he finds it at a different type of location he has the second rule so reduce the RNG of the item occurring in proportion to the number of rules the player has. Say there are ten rules, if a player has found all 10 rules where ever they go that meets those rules there is no RNG. In other words collection of recipe items becomes easier the more exploring you do.

Quite seriously, when Thargoids arrive, much of the scramble for generating modifications will turn into a life-or-death hunt...for those who remain active players.

If the AI for the Thargoids is as advanced as I expect it to be, Eilite will cease to be anything but a combat game, with all the attendant consequences.

All other careers, except pure combat, will be nearly abandoned. Note even the hint of "something out there" to counter the Thargoids will induce explorers to experience another round of negative conditioning. Traders, among others, will find the furthest hiding place that they can, hoping Frontier will relent after a traumatic year of player loss.

Do not forget that the "new car smell" has long gone from the inside of the Elite cockpit. The game is no longer novel, most gamers have heard about it, and other products, with new appeal, will be challenging it.

The Frontier team should be watching the final scene of the Blake's 7 series finale, repeatedly.

 

[NeilF]

Engineers I see as a building block to Thargoids when the ability to have a better armed/shielded ship may become significant!

I have to say, that worries me

In short, is your beam laser doing 25% more damage a building block to something grander? And would that make the Thargoids more intesting as such?


Consider if rather than a development project to introduce some new RND grind mechanics which ultimately then means you can boost certain stats (make your beam laser 25% more powerful), if all that effort had instead gone into some mechanics to move the game "forwards". eg:-

1) NPC wingmen in some missions/tasks, which you could give basic commands to. eg: Attack this! Defend that!
2) Imagine if we had more involved combat orientated missions/tasks such as convoy protection/attack. (see 1)
3) Imagine if we had blockade mechanics, such that under condition X or Y, a station could be blockaded resulting in ships exiting SC further out at specific area, leaving a long flight to the station. Imagine that blockade being enforced/broken. Imagine the price increase of goods inside the station maybe making running the blockade appealing? (see 2)
4) Imagine more dynamic economic models in stations/systems. If food etc isn't suppled, people start starving, and food prices go mad! People start leaving the system however they can! (see 3)
5) Being asked to fly a fighter (think CQC) for a security roll on a station/platform/capital ship (see 1, 2 & 3).​

Let's consider now, the Thargoids appearing. What does having a 25% more powerful beam laser add to that?

Because if we instead had the deeper more varied and interesting mechanics already in place, I can imagine if the Thargoids appeared, being given missions to try and attack them with a wing of other NPCs, or defending an important convoy from them. Seeing systems near Thargoid attacks going into turmoil, and maybe some stations being blockaded. Maybe it's critical food is supplied, or people are flown out of these station. Or being asked to fly a fighter to help defend a capital ship or station from Thargoids.

Consider also with just that list above, how those mechanics might also be used for Community Goals, or Powerplay related tasks!


Or we could have that development time spent to allow us to increase our beam laser damage by 25% and the like...


Yes, I know I'm being very polarised on the matter, but I hope you catch my drift. I see The Engineers as a questionable use of development time, when the game, IMHO, needs to start moving forwards into more interesting/intelligent areas.

 

[Varrag]

Another thing to consider is the fact that FD introduced over 70 new currencies to the game.

70+

That .. is .. insane.

It's just insane to think that 70+ brings something to the game other than to turn it into a spreadsheet!

Perhaps they wanted to make something like EVE?

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Planetary_Commodities

Thing is... in EVE, whilst it is also quite hard to get into all this at the beginning, it's actually made in intuitive and logical way. As usual, it's not about the amount of stuff you add, it's how this stuff connects to the game, and how the player is interacting with it.

 

[Soon(TM)]

I've been having the same Deja Vu feeling that the Engineers is like Powerplay all over again, something that the community has a love and hate relationship with and another part of the game I probably won't take part in. Looking back at the headline features* of all the updates, of the seven so far, I'm only using two:

1.1 - CG - use
1.2 - Wings - don't use
1.3 - PP - don't use
1.4 - CQC - don't use
1.5 - Ships - n/a (have not purchased any of the ships introduced but probably will one day)
2.0 - Planetary Landings - use
2.1 - Engineers - don't use

*I am aware that I am using other content that came with those updates, some of which is very good. Most of the other content that came with 2.1 has been good.

1.1 CG - Use
1.2 Wings - Use on rare occasions
1.3 PP - Avoid like the plague
1.4 CQC - Avoid like the plague
1.5 Ships - Use
2.0 Planetary Landings - Use rarely
2.1 Engineers - Don't use, don't intend to use
2.1 Mission revamp - Use and like, just wish the mission content was better
2.1 AI improvements - Meh!

For me, The thought of playing elite makes me me more excited than actually playing elite, maybe it's the nostalgia factor, or that the game is completely different in my mind?

 

[Andovar]

I do think there is a lack of imagination at times. I'll give you an example. The rare materials, take Polonoim for instance... There is no skill involved and no challenge needed to gain this item. All you need to know is on which planets it spawns, a wealth of info on which is readily available, then all you do is drive back and forth across the most boring of landscapes and wait for the random generator to decide wether it's your lucky day or not. You can find as much of it on flat plains as you can in craters, it's a myth to state otherwise as it all boils down to the random spawn that the game decides to spew out at any particular moment.

That same goal could have become far more interesting and rewarding if FD had made Polonium (or other rare elements) only spawn in challenging terrain, like rugged mountain ranges or deep ravines. Places that challenge the player and encourages the player to visit these wonderfully varied locations - something Horizons was quick to promote but has done precious little to utilize in any meaningful way - but crucially the player should be rewarded when he finally reaches that sensor contact with something worthy of the challenge it took to retrieve it.. and not be at the mercy of the random number generator that spews out a bit of iron. I can get iron racing back and forth on the blandest and easiest to explore world in the game.

Something like this utilises all the game mechanics already there. Surely all it takes is a bit of imagination from someone to pipe up and say, let's put the rarest stuff in challenging to reach locations, throw in a bit of risk, but reward those that succeed.... But no, it's always the simplest approach that's taken...., nah lets just put it everywhere and make it randomly spawn after x hours of grind. Job done. ��

Exactly this.
They need to replace tedium with challenge.
I understand why they put the 200 lavaian brandy req on unlocking an engineer, because that wanted to make it difficult to get to, and have a sort of progression of content. But it's really not difficult at all, just extremely tedious.
They need to change the mindset from making things painfully tedious to making them challenging. Tell us where the rare elements are or give us the in-game tools to find them, and then like Erimus said, make them challenging to retrieve.

I also think an engineer specific missions board is sorely needed. Allow us to unlock engineer services by allowing us to do things for them until we build up enough rep with them. This allows the player to choose what type of content they want to play to reach the goal, as opposed to the arbitrary (and painful) "bring me 200 tons of rare brandy".

 

[Colonel Kenney]

See my post on negative feedback loops... and what they are doing wrong.

 

[Ironwolf]

They surely know how to make great games. For very different audience than they've attracted here, though.

What I think is that with ED they might have bitten off more than they could chew. You can't simply transfer gameplay mechanics from games such as Kinectimals or LostWinds into ED and hope that the players will be happy. ED has brought them out of their comfort zone and it is quite obvious to me that they are struggling to handle this game and its playerbase.

Yes, they seem to be struggling.
I think they are rushing it out, trying to stick to season deadlines.
Not only is the game thinned out too much, not enough substance, but it is riddled with things, what I'd call mistakes, that never seem to be addressed properly.

 

[Infernal Shadow]

In all fairness I've never seen how big the development team is for ED. Could have 6 people for all i know. With all that said i haven't touched engineers....... not really into modding my ships that much, Aside from usual outfitting....

Landing on planets is decently fun, for me anyways. However without some more diverse places to go...... it gets kinda dull which leaves me just flying around space more. We need forest worlds, jungles, huge citys maybe even. I've always wondered what "Federal" and "Imperial" architecture looked like on a more populus planet like say "Earth" or maybe even the system of "Achenar" {Dont know if i spelled that right... }

All i know is it would help break up the game's grindy nature in some aspects like ranks and such. At some point your gonna get tired of grinding countless cargo/courier runs for a rank increase of two to three percent per mission if your lucky.
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Just a opinion though..... as it currently wont leave me beating my face into my keyboard. [squeeeee]