General / Off-Topic Orlando

Surfinjo · Jun 14, 2016

No-one else has raised the issue, but I'm positive almost everyone here will be thinking the same.

Posting so we can mark the event.

[video=youtube;GMfuNIe33t4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMfuNIe33t4[/video]

Vigils have been held in Orlando, Florida, and around the world for the victims of Sunday's deadly gun attack on a gay nightclub.
A Muslim cleric told those attending the Orlando event that Muslims stood united with them against "the ideology of hatred, death and destruction".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36524095

Orlando gunman 'was a regular at LGBT nightclub Pulse' before attack 'and used gay dating apps'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-atta/

ORLANDO, Fla. — The gunman who went on a shooting rampage in a popular gay nightclub here shot nearly all of his victims in the first stages of the assault, then was utterly “cool and calm” while he talked by phone to law enforcement officials about further carnage, claimed allegiance to the Islamic State and praised the Boston Marathon bombers, officials said on Monday.

As officials offered new details about the worst mass shooting in American history, which left 49 people dead and 53 wounded, Chief John Mina of the Orlando Police Department said that the gunman, Omar Mateen, 29, told police negotiators — falsely, they later discovered — that he had explosives and accomplices at Pulse nightclub.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-shooting.html

Please don't let this become a gun debate. The issues are complicated enough as they are.

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

A horror ! And in France yesterday, a couple of policemen was murdered in their home with knives, and has been claimed by the Islamic State

Surfinjo · Jun 14, 2016

I don't know the details of yesterday's attack on those policemen, but I suspect that most of these claims are little more than justification of for violence.***

The Orlando gunman for example has no known connections with IS. He seems to have been motivated by an insanity to hit out at everything. Claiming IS would seem to have been part of that.

I recall in the 70s and 80s for example, some football teams here in the UK, especially Scotland, generally identified as Catholic had supporters and opponents, citing the IRA.

***

The attack on a policeman and his partner by a man claiming allegiance to so-called Islamic State is a "terrorist act", France's interior minister says.
The man stabbed the officer to death and took a woman and child hostage in their home in Magnanville, near Paris, before being killed by police.
The partner was found dead but the child was rescued.
French media say the attacker had been sentenced in 2013 for involvement with jihadist groups with links to Pakistan.
Unnamed sources identified him as 25-year-old Larossi Abballa, who lived in nearby Mantes-La-Jolie and was convicted for "criminal association with the aim of preparing terrorist acts".
He was sentenced to a three-year term, with six months suspended, they said.
Islamic State's Amaq news agency said an IS "fighter" carried out the attack.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36524094

Claim subject to generous scepticism.

Toumal · Jun 14, 2016

This will inevitably devolve into a gun debate :/

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Patrick_68000 said:
murdered in their home with knives

...and a knife debate. I guess?

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

Surfinjo said:
I don't know the details of yesterday's attack on those policemen, but I suspect that most of these claims are little more than justification of for violence.***

Exactly ! It is an opportunistic claim.

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

Toumal said:
...and a knife debate. I guess?

The choice of weapons ...

AluminumAlloy · Jun 14, 2016

By the time Obama is out of office (if the recently-exposed plans fail), you're going to see a very dramatic decrease in the amount of shooting incidents. Those who don't "know too much" might never understand why.

Surfinjo · Jun 14, 2016

AluminumAlloy said:
By the time Obama is out of office (if the recently-exposed plans fail), you're going to see a very dramatic decrease in the amount of shooting incidents. Those who don't "know too much" might never understand why.

Wow, are you going to tell us more or just keep us all in thralled expectation?

AluminumAlloy · Jun 14, 2016

Surfinjo said:
Wow, are you going to tell us more or just keep us all in thralled expectation?

I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry.

Surfinjo · Jun 14, 2016

AluminumAlloy said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry.

I don't understand the meaning of this statement:

By the time Obama is out of office (if the recently-exposed plans fail), you're going to see a very dramatic decrease in the amount of shooting incidents. Those who don't "know too much" might never understand why.

What recently exposed plans?

Why a dramatic decrease in shooting incidents?

'Know too much' of what?

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

Surfinjo said:
I don't know the details of yesterday's attack on those policemen, but I suspect that most of these claims are little more than justification of for violence.***

However the Islamic State is legitimate to claim these attacks, even if it is not a direct sponsor. Since a few years, the EI has called on all Muslims to kill in the streets, the policemen, soldiers, the passers-by, more generally the infidels, with a knife, a gun, or a car for crush

Gully Foyle · Jun 14, 2016

Surfinjo said:
I don't know the details of yesterday's attack on those policemen, but I suspect that most of these claims are little more than justification of for violence.***

The Orlando gunman for example has no known connections with IS. He seems to have been motivated by an insanity to hit out at everything. Claiming IS would seem to have been part of that.
<snip>

Not at everything, just the people his religion (and most others) call abomination for their personal actions. I don't have to remind you that LGBTs have been persecuted for years by so called Christians. What's the number one insult when you are in school?

What dogmatic nonsense to even think you should judge others, especially those who are different.

This moron cased out dating apps and the gay locales. Who knows he might have hated himself for detecting latent feelings inside.

He was on a Fed watch list and still able to purchase an assault weapon. Something is wrong when it's easier to get lethal weapons than it is health care.

Just my 2 cents.

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

Gully_Foyle said:
Something is wrong when it's easier to get lethal weapons than it is health care.

Yes ! Lamentable US

Gully Foyle · Jun 14, 2016

AluminumAlloy said:
By the time Obama is out of office (if the recently-exposed plans fail), you're going to see a very dramatic decrease in the amount of shooting incidents. Those who don't "know too much" might never understand why.

What are you talking about? He can't stay past his final term.
The rise in Islam related incednts has zero to do with Obama. Its Ramadan, Daesh has specifically asked for more attacks.

I see a tin hat Al. Don't believe the guys with books to sell and agendas to follow.
Partisanship drives people insane, check out the imploding elephant down south.

Surfinjo · Jun 14, 2016

Gully_Foyle said:
Not at everything, just the people his religion (and most others) call abomination for their personal actions. I don't have to remind you that LGBTs have been persecuted for years by so called Christians. What's the number one insult when you are in school?

What dogmatic nonsense to even think you should judge others, especially those who are different.

This moron cased out dating apps and the gay locales. Who knows he might have hated himself for detecting latent feelings inside.

He was on a Fed watch list and still able to purchase an assault weapon. Something is wrong when it's easier to get lethal weapons than it is health care.

Just my 2 cents.

As someone who has experienced quite a lot of those sort of attacks, both as a child and an adult, I long ago realised that it was little more than an excuse to attack what is weaker than you.

People get attacked for many things, the common denominator is something that singles that person out, be it race, orientation, even accent, beliefs, whatever.

People like this guy are bullies.

It seems likely he was indeed motivated by his ambivalence about his own sexuality. But it still boils down to bullying.

As for buying a weapon, that has to be an entirely separate issue. Many Americans buy and own weapons, few kill people.

Patrick_68000 · Jun 14, 2016

In France, 4000 people (those who are known) are under surveillance. 2000 are ready to go into action

Arry · Jun 14, 2016

Patrick_68000 said:
Exactly ! It is an opportunistic claim.

The BBC (who don't seem to commit to saying anything, until they have it verified in triplicate) have stated the French Gov say they were, IS.

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Patrick_68000 said:
In France, 4000 people (those who are known) are under surveillance. 2000 are ready to go into action

lol, got it.

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AluminumAlloy said:
By the time Obama is out of office (if the recently-exposed plans fail), you're going to see a very dramatic decrease in the amount of shooting incidents. Those who don't "know too much" might never understand why.

He has some special privilege, as he leaves, I believe. I could be talking rubbish.

Surfinjo · Jun 15, 2016

Arry said:
The BBC (who don't seem to commit to saying anything, until they have it verified in triplicate) have stated the French Gov say they were, IS.

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lol, got it.

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He has some special privilege, as he leaves, I believe. I could be talking rubbish.

That would seem to be the case. But it still doesn't tie the Orlando gunman to IS.

IS has put out a video showing Abballa confessing to the killings.
The 11-minute video, on the IS news agency Amaq, apparently shows him in the home of the couple before police stormed in.
In it Abballa, 25, urged Muslims in France to target police officers, prison guards, journalists, politicians and mayors. He named several prominent French journalists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36530710

We need to be very careful here.

Terrorists seek to divide people. The IRA sought to cause divisions between Irish Catholics and everyone else. In doing so they hoped to gain more support, which to an extent, especially in N Ireland and some GB cities, worked.

Terrorists know they can never win militarily. The paramilitary action is a means to an end, causing division and in so doing, gain support. They can claim responsibility for almost any action. From their perspective, the effect is exactly the same.

The way to defeat terrorism isn't with military action since that simply plays the exact game they want.

The only solution is to treat each incident as the isolated and evil criminal act it is.

Patrick_68000 · Jun 15, 2016

This Abballa, is a monster. He killed the man with nine stab wounds and after he cut the throat of the woman in front of her child

Fray · Jun 15, 2016

Surfinjo said:
The Orlando gunman for example has no known connections with IS. He seems to have been motivated by an insanity to hit out at everything. Claiming IS would seem to have been part of that.

Given he targeted an LGBT club I'm not sure it's fair to say "everything". If it's confirmed he was interacting with the community, then it could arguably be termed not just a hate crime, but a self-hate crime, i.e. inability to resolve issues with sexuality/identity leading to a massacre of something he never wanted to be. Religious dogma may've compounded that self-hate.

It's too early to portion out motivations (or blame. though my position on civvies having access to firearms throws some innate blame onto the gun culture of the States. it's disingenuous to try to avoid a discussion about lethal weaponry when a lethal weapon was what allowed him to kill precisely how many he did, as swiftly as he did), though, and even those working on the case may find it hard to delineate 'motivation' or trigger factors. It of course depends on what material he left behind.

/edit

Patrick_68000 said:
This Abballa, is a monster. He killed the man with nine stab wounds and after he cut the throat of the woman in front of her child

Is it useful to use terms like "monster"? What is achieved by casting individuals like that as inhuman, as an 'other'? Note: this observatuin has nothing to do with the severity of someone's actions, just the way in which they're perceived and thus potentially dealt with.