OK, Dogfighting Question

[Deleted member 115407]

I see a lot of people complaining about circling and jousting during dogfights.

Exactly what else could be expected from a 1v1 fight in zero-G, other than each pilot trying to turn to get the most advantageous position? Is there some other tactical mechanic that could be employed?

 

[Dai]

yes, its about balancing your pips, keeping your speed at the right point, using boost and thrusters to turn quicker, keeping the right distance from your target, and following the best line.

But apart from that its easy

 

[Deleted member 115407]

yes, its about balancing your pips, keeping your speed at the right point, using boost and thrusters to turn quicker, keeping the right distance from your target, and following the best line.

But apart from that its easy

Well yeah, but my point is, you get two ships in zero or low-G. They are both going to play the turning game in order to get shots on each other? If it just so happens that they are facing each other, there will be some jousting. Here's a google image for "dogfighting tactics"... seems like a lot of turning to me?

What else would anyone else expect? To be fair, these images depict tactics when employed with a wingman...

Spoiler

 

[tawittle]

well there is the 1.4/2.0 mechanic of you shooting the AI and the AI just sits there and lets you kill it. Not saying that anybody is asking for that to return, but it is a fact that the AI was seriously bugged before...

I think a lot of the problem is that people are jumping in their ships (which may not be entirely A grade) with zero engineer mods and expecting the AI to be a comparable level to before the patch.

After you get mods...the AI honestly feels easier than before. I would also say that I definetly feel that FD nerfed the AI significantly between the release of 2.1 and now. I know that FD has denied this, but I've fought against the Elite AI since the beginning of 2.1 and I can tell you that they aren't the same as they were at release.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

well there is the 1.4/2.0 mechanic of you shooting the AI and the AI just sits there and lets you kill it.

lol +1

 

[Captain Hooch]

Power Management

• Systems = More Pips = stronger shields & faster shield recharge
• Weapons = More Pips = longer you can fire weapons
• Engines = Higher Top Speed, faster speeds in blue zone, and better agility

Turning

• Pitching UP + Downward Thrust will pitch your nose around faster to face an enemy that has already gotten mostly or completely behind you, however it also thrusts you away from them creating a joust situation
• Pitching Up + Upward Thrust will let you follow an enemy who is still in front of you and stay on target a little longer.
• Pitching Up + Upward Thrust + Reverse Thrust when you're right on top of them and they are about to slip behind you this will give you an edge to keep them in your sights a little longer, although its less effective on less agile ships
• Pitching Up + Upward Thrust + Reverse Thrust + Toggling Off Flight Assist will help you really turn that nose around and stay on target and minimize drift caused by FA Off. Just toggle it back on when you've got them in your sights.

Also Remember to use Yaw + Left/Right Lateral Thrust to aim and Pitch+Up/Down thrust to follow your target. Also Remember to roll with them in the turns so you can stay on them easier.

It's a lot to take in and its hard to explain honestly. I've attempted to explain some of it in a video by flying around and fighting and using on screen text to explain what I'm doing in the turning battles while two Cameras watch my controllers letting you see my hands and feet in real time with the game, so maybe give that a look.

[video=youtube_share;JT2FS34YTSA]https://youtu.be/JT2FS34YTSA[/video]

I've also got 2 other videos going into detail about learning fixed kinetic weapons and power management on my channel.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Thanks, Hooch, those will come in handy, as will the other tips folks have posted.

I'm about to take a break from the ground war to do some bounty hunting for the cause. I'll watch this and look for other good trainers out there.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

Asymmetrical countering is the key to deviating from pitch and joust tactics.
Double circle engagement to win back the second eighth of the sky.
Super fun, amazingly effective and very challenging to learn.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Asymmetrical countering is the key to deviating from pitch and joust tactics.
Double circle engagement to win back the second eighth of the sky.
Super fun, amazingly effective and very challenging to learn.

Thanks, I'll look it up. Cool to learn about tactics that I never knew about.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Well yeah, but my point is, you get two ships in zero or low-G. They are both going to play the turning game in order to get shots on each other? If it just so happens that they are facing each other, there will be some jousting. Here's a google image for "dogfighting tactics"... seems like a lot of turning to me?
…

It depends on what the developer of the game thinks is a fun and entertaining way to do space combat.

Elite is/was more like world war I or II planes in space - similar to the way Star Wars for example depicted space combat.
It was (against NPCs) trying to get at the back of the opponent (chasing the tail - like a dog fight) while the opponent (NPC) did the same.

The one thing that breaks this concept is, that in ED ships can be almost or as fast flying backwards than they can fly forward. In addition to that ships can fly up/down and left/right at the same time.
The result is, that ships can be maneuvered in a way that resembles the usual first person shooter games (just in a 3D space and not primarily in a 2D+ space).

Before 2.1 the NPCs didn't try that much backward flying or circle strafing. That changed with 2.1. NPCs now try to circle strafe if they have the agility advantage or joust (with backward flying) if the NPC is in a big ship.
It's still a lot of turning, but now it's about always facing the enemy ship while not flying primarily forward but flying up/down while pitching up/down.

In my opinion the ship design, the weapons and the overall balance is designed around forward flight (planes in air dogfight) and not around circle strafing (primarily up/down movement with pitch).

The 2.1 NPC AI is a response to the way players used the ships - obviously in a way the designers didn't expect, otherwise the NPCs would have used those "tactics" since release.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

It depends on what the developer of the game thinks is a fun and entertaining way to do space combat.

Elite is/was more like world war I or II planes in space - similar to the way Star Wars for example depicted space combat.
It was (against NPCs) trying to get at the back of the opponent (chasing the tail - like a dog fight) while the opponent (NPC) did the same.

The one thing that breaks this concept is, that in ED ships can be almost or as fast flying backwards than they can fly forward. In addition to that ships can fly up/down and left/right at the same time.
The result is, that ships can be maneuvered in a way that resembles the usual first person shooter games (just in a 3D space and not primarily in a 2D+ space).

Before 2.1 the NPCs didn't try that much backward flying or circle strafing. That changed with 2.1. NPCs now try to circle strafe if they have the agility advantage or joust (with backward flying) if the NPC is in a big ship.
It's still a lot of turning, but now it's about always facing the enemy ship while not flying primarily forward but flying up/down while pitching up/down.

In my opinion the ship design, the weapons and the overall balance is designed around forward flight (planes in air dogfight) and not around circle strafing (primarily up/down movement with pitch).

The 2.1 NPC AI is a response to the way players used the ships - obviously in a way the designers didn't expect, otherwise the NPCs would have used those "tactics" since release.

Thanks Zadian. It took me a minute to take that in, but I get what you're saying.

Looking forward to getting in some dogfighting after I close out my pending ground missions

 

[Crash1099]

I see a lot of people complaining about circling and jousting during dogfights.

Exactly what else could be expected from a 1v1 fight in zero-G, other than each pilot trying to turn to get the most advantageous position? Is there some other tactical mechanic that could be employed?

I like the jousting fights. It is better than the old ai.

 

[TargetLost]

Dogfights in the Air with planes play with the gravity. You can trade kinetic energy (velocity) with potential energy (height)..i.e. you can pull up into the sky and make a flip at the top Point and race down Things like that.
In space however velocity is a sort of a static component that you can continuely increase or decrease through your trusters.
With real world physics Zero-G dogfight would have nothing in common with air/plane dogfights at all. FD made it similair that it is interesting to play.

I honestly don't like the circeling stuff too much because if the oponent is good it is mostly very inefficient. Flying a python since 2.1 whenever possible i fly it backward now and Switch between Forward and backward trust to Keep the enemy ship on a distance between 1 km and 3 km. That means I tank them and that way I can kill them mostly a lot faster than engaging in the circleing or the alternative boost flip boost flip.
But thats mainly the consequence of 2.1 for me. I never liked or did backward flying before 2.0 because it is not really a satisfying thing to do.
It's a matter of the engineer lvl trusters you have. I guess with lvl3 I will fight them mostly Forward flying again....if I ever find that one missing material (over 2 weeks without any Mission offering it)

 

[davedf]

Captain Hooch's video is an excellent example of how to fly an FDL or other smaller manoeuvrable ships.

When I am in larger ships I tend to reverse and face tank when they try to joust, then FA off, flip and chase them as they pass.

For opponents in ships who chaff all the time (I'm looking at you Mr Clipper ), I find that, in a corvette, doing a non boost ram and 'catching' them on the nose of the corvette exposes them to the full force of the two huge multi cannons so their chaff has no effect.

Edit - typo, clarification

 

[Achilles7]

Yep that is a fair point OP..for me it's all about getting that positional advantage while a ship is scanning me..if I can't manage it during the scan, I engage head-on with the ship. Then it's up to me to get the upper hand using skill during the fight!

The whole wait for scan to complete..ship turns away..get on it's six & fire, is just ! In a threatening stand off, how realistic is it that one party retracts hp's & turns his back on the other..that is just nonsense!

 

[Zelos1983]

I see a lot of people complaining about circling and jousting during dogfights.

Exactly what else could be expected from a 1v1 fight in zero-G, other than each pilot trying to turn to get the most advantageous position? Is there some other tactical mechanic that could be employed?

You can see a good impression of dogfighting in Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica (reimaged).

E dogfight is not like that, which leads to complaints. My two major ones are:
- the ships turn much to slow
- a "speed limit" exists

Also, the weapons range is far too short and the damage is reduced with range - even for kinetic weapons!

It's too arcady. And therefore frustrating when you'd like to have that sim feeling, but you always realize that you cannot pilot the ship realistically.

 

[Becks]

Bigger ship fights often end up being damagebattles between tanks. Pip Management is extremely important there.
Jousting is more a problem in small or medium ships.

 

[Captain Hooch]

Asymmetrical countering is the key to deviating from pitch and joust tactics.
Double circle engagement to win back the second eighth of the sky.
Super fun, amazingly effective and very challenging to learn.

I would like to see this in action, perhaps make a post a video?

 

[Samoth]

I propose everyone who has problems with dogfighting in this game should play a combat flight simulator like DCS. I say this with no sarcasm or snarkiness: dogfighting in this game is ridiculously easy. You have so many tools at your disposal to give you an advantage over your adversary, and I'm convinced that everyone complaining how hard it is have no idea how to fly their ships in combat and that's all it boils down to. LEARN HOW TO FLY YOUR SHIPS.

People speak of using lateral and vertical thrusters, FA off and pip management as if it's some sort of option or advanced technique or something. Not utilizing the very basics such as pip management and thruster/speed management and then complaining that it's too hard is like playing baseball with a blindfold on and both hands tied behind your back, then when everyone tells you to take the damn thing off, you get angry and say that you should be able to play the game how you want to.

LEARN HOW TO PILOT YOUR SHIPS. It's not about PvP or PvE, it's about knowing how to fly. This game is in no way, shape, or form a simulator and I'm not saying GIT GUD, it's just that you people who are having problems with the AI need to learn how to fly and learn your ship's capes and lims. FDev has taken away the drool cup, that's all they've done.

 

[Thales]

I very much like the tips and the video, but unfortunately this obviously is difficult to translate into the use of keyboard/mouse for people who do not use a joystick/controller.

Can anyone try and explain these tips in keyboard/mouse terms please?